CC of York (York, PA; Donald Ross, 1927): a photo tour (broken links fixed!)

[Joe Bausch]

This course flies under the radar a bit.  It is located in south central PA, not all that far from Lancaster CC and the courses at Hershey. GCAer Jim Sherma set this round up for me, Mayday Malone, Mike Trenham, Tim Martin, and a few other Hershey CC members.

You can find some pretty decent discussion of this course using the search engine.  There is at least one thread that included comparing and contrasting the Ross routing used versus one by William Flynn, which obviously was not used (unfortunately some of the figures in that thread are no longer are available):

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,33820.0.html

Here is the hole-sequencing (clickable) on an annotated 2012 Google Earth aerial:



Here is the scorecard, where some might wish it could play longer:



Really interesting old clubhouse, with the practice green close by, which is just a few yards from the 1st tee.  Nice and convenient.



#1.  Slight dogleg-right par 4 (416 yards).

The bunker right near the turn-point is only 200 yards out.  Your better players will probably not hit driver.



Tee view (the lighting this day was good much of the time, but not so good on the first hole):

Note:  all pictures are clickable to bring up 1400 pixels-wide views.



Approach view, where you can see a typical technique Ross used by locating three greens in close proximity:



View from short of the green:



View from the back of the green, which is reasonably representative of many others at CC of York:



#2.  Up-then-down-then-up par 5 (511 yards).  The No. 1 stroke hole.



Tee view (those fairway bunkers are definitely in play; but I think really big hitters can get over the rise and really make this a long par 4):



Most people will have a blind 2nd shot over the rise.

Once over the hill the view is as follows:



I think another aspect of the No. 1 stroke rating is the green, which is sloped from back to front pretty severely, as this picture from the right rough somewhat depicts:



Here's a view from the hill behind the green:



#3.  Slightly downhill, long par 3 (237 yards).



Tee view:

My preference, since so many will be bouncing a ball into the green and the ground leans to the right, would be to mow out the fairway to the left greenside bunker.



From short and right of the green, which is sort of a semi-punchbowl:



View from above the green:



So after that pretty tough long par 3, the fourth plays back up the hill for the drive at least.

#4.  Par 4 (369 yards).

This is probably a birdie hole for your better and longer players.  The drive looks like the one on the 2nd hole, although to get to the top of the rise (maybe 20 yards past the fairway bunkers) isn't quite as far as on 2.  But I rarely carry a drive say 250y in the air uphill these days, so I think many will have a blind or semi-blind 2nd shot.



Tee view:



Get to near the top of the rise and a decent look for the 2nd shot remains:



Good drive leaves simple, clean look in:



This view from the right edge of the green looking to the left edge shows a neat spine starting from the anchor point in the back of the green:



#5.  Dogleg-left par 4 (393 yards).

This is a tough driving hole, IMO.  A blind shot where you can't see a bunker at the turn of the dogleg.  Your better player will probably not hit driver here.



Tee view:



Here's that fairway bunker I mentioned that Sherma is ticked since he ended up on the steep grass face:   



A good drive sitting up on the upper tier, which tumbles down across a private road, leaves this view for the 2nd:



From the bunkers short and left of the green:



From just over the green (par 3 6th green to the left) with some wonderful contouring (I was back left on the green and getting close to that pin was fun):



#6.  Downhill par 3 (154 yards).



Tee view:



The pond does extend a bit more than you can see from the tee:



View from left of the green and pond, essentially the back of the 7th tee:



#7.  Par 4 (368 yards).

Another uphill par 4, steeper at the beginning, moving a bit to the left.



Tee view:



Big drive leaves this uphill approach shot with a short iron:



From just short of the green, with a real good pin location:



As shown better by this view from left of the green:



#8.  Slight dogleg-right par 4 (414 yards).



Near the tee view from earlier in the morning when playing the 1st hole:



Approach shot view (where some trees have been removed, but I guess not enough with a fan in place):



From short of the right greenside bunker:



View down the hole from over the green:



#9.  Par 5 (489 yards).



I would consider this another par 4.5 hole.  Big hitters don't really need driver here, if they do, they must be careful to not hit through the fairway.

Tee view, where hugging right is best, and you can sort of see a 2nd bunker up on the right:



Here is that 2nd bunker, that a big drive blows by one the left side:



Good drive leaves a view like this of about 200 yards in:



From 50 yards out:



View from over the green:



Back nine Monday.

[Tim_Weiman]

Joe,

Great report. If I have ever seen a better collection of golf course pictures, I certainly don't recall doing so.

Would love to play that course. Classic.

[Joe Bausch]

Thanks Tim.  CC of York is pretty photogenic. 

Hopefully Jim Nagle will chime in at some point as I believe he did the bunker work there a few years back.

[Tim Martin]

Joe,

Great report. If I have ever seen a better collection of golf course pictures, I certainly don't recall doing so.

Would love to play that course. Classic.

Tim- York is a blast to play and really doesn't have any weak holes. It has a fine set of greens and the card yardage is misleading due to a number of uphill approach shots. Additionally you catch some fantastic vistas of the surrounding countryside from some of the higher points on the property. The genius of Ross really shines as the routing flows expertly giving the golfer holes that go left,right, up and down. I don't know why it doesn't get more acclaim as the consensus was that it could be a Top 200 Classic course. I don't know what the Flynn routing looks like but it's hard to knock the decision to opt for Ross given what's in the ground.

[Jim Sherma]

Joe - thanks again for taking the effort to put this up. CC of York is an exceptional course that has a good reputation among better players and pros in central PA but I doubt enough people have played it in order for it to garner a broader audience. The day out was wonderful and I thank Tim, Mayday and Joe for coming out.

General thoughts on the course:

• Good routing that took a pretty severe site and made for a good walk. As you will see later on the 16th is really the only extreme climb that stood out and the other climbs tended to be pretty reasonable.
• The greens did not have a lot of smaller more severe internal movements but rather generally played much larger with broader sweeping slopes - I played Mark Twain a couple of times this summer and while CC of York's greens were quite a bit larger both sets of greens had movement suited to their size and surrounding tie-ins. Both sets clearly can eat you up if you start getting out of position on them.
• The course seemed to play long for its yardage - I felt like I drove the ball fairly well but the uphill drives tended to not have a ridge that gave a kick once you got to the top.
• I definitely think CC of York is in the upper end of central PA courses along with Lancaster, Hershey West and possibly Scranton (Scranton is on hearsay as I have not played it yet).

I'll check back later to add my thoughts on some of the individual holes.

[Dan Herrmann]

Joe - once again, thanks for a great photo tour.

CC of York looks wonderful!

[Rory Connaughton]

Jim is right CC of York is highly regarded in this region but even here 30 minutes east it is really under the radar.  I really like the look of the course and will be attempting to make a visit based on Joe's images.  Not that there is any architectural element to this but Scott Nye of MGC was the pro at York.

Jim - Scranton = Central Pa?
I do want to see those greens!

[mike_malone]

  Joe,
 Great job!  York was a joy. You could tell they had done massive tree removal around the greens. It opened up the play around the greens to multiple options.

[Jim Sherma]

Jim is right CC of York is highly regarded in this region but even here 30 minutes east it is really under the radar.  I really like the look of the course and will be attempting to make a visit based on Joe's images.  Not that there is any architectural element to this but Scott Nye of MGC was the pro at York.

Jim - Scranton = Central Pa?
I do want to see those greens!

Yes, I would consider Scranton Central PA. It is certainly between Philly and Pittsburgh and not on the radar screen of either.

Contact me if you want to hit York at some point.

[Joe Bausch]

A couple of other notes from the day:  big props to the CC of York as they allowed us to walk and carry.  And it is a pretty nice walk.

We really didn't push it as we analyzed the course, yet still played in 3h 50m (time stamps from the camera don't allow you to lie about the length of a round!).

[Matthew Rose]

Classic parkland Ross. Awesome.

[Joe Bausch]

The back nine is on a bit more severe part of the property and is really fun.  Yes, I think it could stand to have even more trees meet their maker!

#10.  Slight dogleg-right par 4 (334 yards).

Similar in shape and running right alongside the 1st hole, this much shorter hole has a more demanding green.



Tee view, where in the distance you can see a group on the green:



From short of the green (#1 green to the left) with two big bunkers barely visible short left and right:



Looking from long and right of the green:



#11.  Down-then-up par 4 (427 yards).

Nice views on this 2-shotter with large elevation change.



Tee view with the heavily canted fairway:



See what I mean?!:



Uphill approach shot:



View from the hill over the green (I wonder if that drainpipe maybe 70 shorts of the green is original; I seem to remember Tilly installing some big fairway drain pipes around the same time at Aronimink):



#12.  Par 3 (206 yards).



This hole feels like you are at Flynn's Rolling Green.

Tee view:



From just short of the short grass area (rarely do I play with someone that walks faster than me and gets in the frame!):



View back down the hole from long and right of the green:



The next three holes at York skirt along the southeastern edge of the property, with some severe elevation changes.  It is interesting to see how Flynn's plan proposed to use, or not use, parts of this area of the property.

#13.  Uphill, dogleg-right par 4 (306 yards).

Big trees left, I believe, to protect the yards/houses over there.



Tee view, where many will just bunt something out there as distance isn't demanded:



Very uphill approach to what could be a decent, not great, skyline green if not for the evergreens over the green (and to the left of the next tee):



Look from long and left of the green:



#14.  Downhill, slight dogleg-left par 5 (528 yards).



Here is another par 5 where I think your better players will hope for birdie.  If you hit a little hard draw off the tee, like one of my playing partners did, you have an iron in.

Tee view:



A decent drive makes a good decision:  do you try to reach the green from maybe 240+ downhill, or, hit say a short iron past the steep slope about 150 yards short of the green to leave a flip wedge or similar.



The conservative approach executed properly leaves a little shot like this in.  Note left is pretty much dead.



This view taken from the back right corner of the green (right next to the fan; yeah, I think this green needs it) which is heavily tilted back to front:



#15.  Slight dogleg-left par 5 (489 yards).

That in reality par 4.5 is followed by another par 5, but also really a par 4.5.  Just over the last green you come down some steep stairs for an elevated tee shot.



Tee view:



A good drive leaves a nice look back to the previous green and this hole's tees:



Unless your drive is fairly long, your 2nd shot can still reach the green but could be blind or a view of just the top of the flag:



View from short and left of the green:



Look back down the hole from the back of the green:



#16.  Uphill par 4 (404 yards; No. 2 stroke hole).

This is a pretty nifty hole, at least that is what I think after just one play.



Tee view:



Uphill approach to a very deep, multi-tiered green:



From short and left of the green, an awesome hole location on the very back, small tier:



Look from over the green, those stairs leading up to the next tee:



#17.  Slightly uphill par 3 (174 yards).



Tee view:



From short and right of the green:



This bunker left of the green got Sherma, having hit it into the tiny little slit at the top of it:



#18.  Par 4 (391 yards).



Who is that guy in this view from the forward tees?:



Plenty of tilt in this fairway:



From short of the green:



Look back down the hole from over the greeen:



Look at the back of the beautiful clubhouse:



That's all folks.  CC of York is a very under-appreciated Ross course, IMHO.

For all the photos left after I culled the herd, go here:

http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/albums/CCofYork/index.html

[Rory Connaughton]

Joe

  How do you compare York to some other PA Ross?  Torresdale, LuLu, GM etc?

[mike_malone]

 Rory,

 I still think Torresdale is my favorite Ross in the area. Of course that is the Ross that is hidden beneath the trees. I have played there many times so my enjoyment level is well honed. York is closer in feel to Gulph Mills for me. They are close in my opinion. Lulu is a less ambitious course in my view on a less interesting piece of ground but is a fine course. York may have the best property of all of them.
Torresdale is high on variety which is a big value for me.

[Joe Bausch]

Mayday, I remember Torresdale's greens being smaller and less contoured than York.  And many at T-F have significant back to front slope but overall fairly flat (like the 1st).  Or am I not remembering T-F well?

[Joe Bausch]

Joe

  How do you compare York to some other PA Ross?  Torresdale, LuLu, GM etc?

Have to agree with Mayday to some extent.  But CCofY feels much "bigger" than Torresdale or LuLu as York is on a bigger plot of land.  But  York doesn't seem too big.

I think the greens at York have more internal contouring than most at Torresdale, and many at LuLu.  LuLu's are more subtle.

York is more like Gulph Mills.  Those many Maxwell greens at GM are very good and York doesn't quite have any quite like them.

[Jim Sherma]

Some thoughts on the front nine:

#1.  Slight dogleg right par 4 (416 yards).

I found this drive to be very awkward to start the day off with. You know the bunker is on the right but it kind of sits down and is somewhat blind. On a second playing I will definitely hit three wood to try to keep from driving through the dogleg on the left.



#2.  Up-then-down-then-up par 5 (511 yards).  The No 1 stroke hole.

Once over the hill the view is as follows:

The right to left slope of the second shot landing area is quite severe. I hit three wood up the right side and ran down into the left first cut. All in all not a bad spot as holding it into the hill would likely force you to play more of a hook/pull lie. Front pin placements must be quite scary.



I think another aspect of the No 1 stroke rating is the green, which is sloped from back to front pretty severely, as this picture from the right rough somewhat depicts:



#3.  Slightly downhill, long par 3 (237 yards).

I believe Tim birdied this one.  



Tee view:

My preference, since so many will be bouncing a ball into the green and the ground leans to the right, would be to mow out the fw to the left greenside bunker.

Joe, did you mean to the left of the bunker, or the rough between the bunker and the current fairway line?



#4.  Par 4 (369 yards).

Good drive leaves simple, clean look in:

This hole probably gets more interesting the more you play it. Long is dead as it drops off severely except for a couple of benches that were put in to help stop the ball from heading down all the way to the next tee. I could easily see after repeated playing that chasing anything past the middle of the green would just be seen as a fool's errand.




#5.  Dogleg left par 4 (393 yards).

This is a tough driving hole, IMO.  A blind shot where you can't see a bunker at the turn of the dogleg.  Your better player will probably not hit driver here.

Absloutely nothing to help direct a first time player as to the right line. there was way more room right than I thought. I thought I hit a perfect drive up the left side and got screwed in the bunker that was blind. Definitely just a three wood down the mowing line to set up a second into one of the neater greens on the course.

Tee view:




From just over the green (par 3 6th green to the left) with some wonderful contouring (I was back left on the green and getting close to that pin was fun):

This reminded me of 13 at Mark Twain with the sharp slope to a back shelf. Tough green if you get in the wrong spot relative to that day's hole placement.





#8.  Slight dogleg right par 4 (414 yards).

Near the tee view from earlier in the morning when playing the 1st hole:

i thought this hole really was laid across tha land nicely. The bunker front right of the green is well short of the green and visually pushed me left such that I ended up in the left bunker. I felt that this was a nice piece of deception.



View down the hole from over the green:

[Tim Martin]

As far as having my expectations exceeded York was way beyond anything I had imagined. Ross really routed a beauty!

[mike_malone]

 Joe,
T/F 's greens are smaller but several have significant internal contours, particularly the short 4's and my favorite #3.

[Charlie Gallagher]

   This thread illustrates why GCA is such a phenomenal resource. Never heard of this Donald Ross until I saw the post listed in the Discussion Group and clicked in. Joe, great job again with the photos and other descriptive material.
   I will suggest another Ross to be considered as excellent in this central PA collection, Schuylkill out side of Bethlehem. The up and down pitch of the property depicted in Joe's photos of  York reminds me of Gulph Mills, but also of Schuylkill. Schuylkill is not in the same shape as York appears to be in and it cries out for a restoration, but it's good as it is and would be very good after an update. The bones are all there, including a breathtaking skyline hole, the 10th, that is just plain out of this world amazing.
   It looks to me like York could profit from further tree removal, but the features it reveals are beautiful. Has it been touched at all by a modern architect?

    

[Jim Sherma]

Another interesting Ross is Silver Creek in Hellertown, PA. This is the old Bethlehem Steel Club and is 27 holes. I believe it is the last course Ross ever did. I played the High School district tournament there in 1983 and was sick as a dog playing like crap. Always had a good reputation but was always overshadowed by Saucon Valley. I really need to get back there.

[Mark McKeever]

The spare 9 holes at Silver Creek are the best out there IMO.  There are 18 Ross holes and 9 Gordon holes.  The current championship 9 is half Ross and half Gordon with some pretty good recent restoration work. 


MM

[Joe Bausch]

 
   It looks to me like York could profit from further tree removal, but the features it reveals are beautiful. Has it been touched at all by a modern architect?

Jim Nagle has done some work at York.  When he checks back in perhaps he'll chime in further.

[Jim Sherma]

For what it's worth... The pro told me that other than some bunker work the course was untouched.

[Joe Bausch]

For what it's worth... The pro told me that other than some bunker work the course was untouched.

Maybe we need to see if there are any Ross green drawings for York at Tufts and see how well they match up with what is there currently.