[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,
Do you think Merion is having difficulty finding new members because they are golf only or because their exorbitant membership dues are covering the expense of all the changes they had to make to host an open?

Josh,

I think you're terribly misinformed when it comes to Merion, their dues and the Open

[Josh Tarble]

Pat, you are right on that one, I have no idea.  Just a question as well.

I was basing it on my experience looking for a club...the clubs that had done renovations all charged significantly higher dues.

[Tim Martin]

Does anyone really believe that Merion who committed to and was selected to
host the US Open in 2006 before the downturn in the economy agreed to host partially to attract members? Come on. I don't know where this inference originated from but I read through this thread and don't see anything pertaining to that. If I missed it please accept my apology.

[Brent Hutto]

It wasn't on the scale of these famous courses but our course was renovated a few years before I joined. It was the beginning of the death spiral. Half the members were against spending a million (borrowed) dollars. So they left. Now we owe a million bucks, the course is closed for months, half the dues base is gone and...you guessed it, new members coming in were expected to pay a big bump in initiation and dues because the course had just been renovated. It's been nearly 15 years and we haven't recovered yet, although the renovated golf course is IMO marvelous. I love it. But the old one was nice and it was already paid for decades earlier.

[Andrew Buck]

Sorry to vent so much negativity. But I just don't see how a beautiful, excellent golf course that's been there for half a century can continue to exist. The market realities in a overbuilt, mid-size metro area like mine just no longer provide a 300 or 400 golfer base from which to keep the enterprise afloat. And even if we shuttered the clubhouse, closed the pool and laid off 80% of the club employees to become a golf-only club we'd still have that biggest line-item (golf course maintenance) but now we'd be down to only the revenue stream from 100 or so golfers. I'm as big a golf course snob as you'll find and even I have a hard time paying 1/100th the cost of a fine golf course when "pretty good" ones are right down the street to be played for 30 bucks a round or less. Yikes!

Brent,

I understand and I agree with your frustration.  I am one of a handful of members that really care passionately about our club to save it.  For me, the other course in the area has actually surpassed ours in conditioning (and is walkable) so I play there a lot as well.  There is no doubt that I couldn't justify the private club membership if there weren't a few family friendly amenities, but not every location has a similar option.

The more we collectively address these issues on this board, the more I become convinced that supply is *the* biggest issue of all.  Just too many options and even if demand increased some, we just are overbuilt.    

[PCCraig]

Pat Mucci,

I think your original premise is a myth, or at least it doesn't apply here in the Minneapolis-Saint Paul, MN metro area. At my home course, the introduction of a social membership in 2006/2007 was a key factor in allowing it to survive the recession. The club allowed for 100 new memberships that included the clubhouse, dining, pool, and tennis. Now social memberships account for roughly 20% of the members. They pay roughly half of what golf members do. Granted, you could say that they are covering non-golf related activities at the club, but the extra dues revenue surely supplements the golf operations and impacts the overall health of the club significantly. The club wouldn't be able to generate this revenue without pool, tennis, and dining facilities.

What makes you think your club or any club is out of the "membership" woods yet ?
The financial/membership problem is ongoing.
And, with the infusion of 100 new members at one time, I'll guarantee you that the culture of your club will change, especially since those 100 new members aren't golfers.

There are a couple metro clubs that I can think of that offer mostly golf and minimal dining service that struggled through the recession and continue to struggle even as consumers are beginning to return to the luxury item that is golf and country clubs.

Offering "mostly" golf isn't offering "only" golf, thus your comparison is invalid.

Pat Mucci,

For the time being, the club certainly is out of the membership "woods" as we're effectively full and back to pre-recession levels. Our club has been around for a long time (120 years at the current location) and is located in a mature neighborhood literally in the middle of the 16th largest metropolitan area in the country. It's always been a "country club" and the depth of families in the area has always demanded it to be. We now have 135 social memberships and a fairly long waiting list for that type of membership. Because social members can't use the golf facilities and I don't mind activity in the clubhouse, pool, or tennis courts I don't understand why you somehow think that having social memberships change the culture of the club.

Sorry, by defining "mostly" golf I meant a golf course and a clubhouse with light dining. So yes, "only" golf clubs in the area are struggling.

Again, there is a general myth here on GCA that "Country Clubs" are bad for golf and aren't ideal. Personally, I like being able to sit outside at a pool in the summer, play tennis, and especially golf. It's great being able to do all three (or more) things. Personally I find it ideal. But of course not everyone wants the CC deal and they play at "only" golf clubs, which is a consumer's choice. The beauty of having choices.

So, it really doesn't make any sense (barring some miraculous data you have up your sleeve) that you somehow think Country Clubs are at a disadvantage in the hunt for new members. If anything, you can make the case that they are in a far better position. The times of being able to sell the Mrs. and kids on a golf course membership that doesn't come with dining, pool, tennis, kids events, etc. is ending fast.

[PCCraig]

Pat,
Do you think Merion is having difficulty finding new members because they are golf only or because their exorbitant membership dues are covering the expense of all the changes they had to make to host an open?

Josh,

I think you're terribly misinformed when it comes to Merion, their dues and the Open

If you are informed please share or please point us in the right direction of a document that states that Merion hosting the Open to boost membership.

[Brent Hutto]

I'm with PatC over PatM on this one. There's a reason maybe 1 in 20 of the private courses in USA belong to "golf only" clubs. If there were some economically fundamental reason why golf only has a leg up over country clubs, those proportions would eventually invert.

[PCCraig]

Pat

It seems to me that the "Golf Club Only" concept could be very successful in may markets throughout the US. By avoiding large clubhouses and other amenities that serve as loss leaders the majority of the expenses would be golf related. The target market is empty nesters and dedicated golfers who do not need pool, tennis and fine dining. A good golf course, well-conceived practice area and a bar/grill with a good lunch menu would do it for me.

Historically Golf Clubs have succeeded in affluent metropolitan areas where most members also held memberships at family oriented country clubs. As America ages the option of golf only clubs appears to be a good alternative for those only interested in enjoying the game with like minded golf enthusiasts.

Rob,

Correct me if I'm wrong but the only way you could afford to build such a golf only project would be to build it in a far away area where land is somewhat expensive, no? Even then you would need huge membership fees to cover the project if no RE is included. Which at that point how many people are you going to attract to a golf only club with huge initiation fees that is located an hour drive away?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Does anyone really believe that Merion who committed to and was selected to
host the US Open in 2006 before the downturn in the economy agreed to host partially to attract members? Come on. I don't know where this inference originated from but I read through this thread and don't see anything pertaining to that. If I missed it please accept my apology.

Tim,

Apology accepted  

Please don't tell me that you gleen all there is to know about Merion from this thread  

[Patrick_Mucci]

It wasn't on the scale of these famous courses but our course was renovated a few years before I joined. It was the beginning of the death spiral. Half the members were against spending a million (borrowed) dollars. So they left. Now we owe a million bucks, the course is closed for months, half the dues base is gone and...you guessed it, new members coming in were expected to pay a big bump in initiation and dues because the course had just been renovated. It's been nearly 15 years and we haven't recovered yet, although the renovated golf course is IMO marvelous. I love it. But the old one was nice and it was already paid for decades earlier.

Brent,

Many clubs made the same mistake.

I think there's a vast difference between updating/decorating and remodeling.

I also think that "pay as you go" and NO borrowing are critical to financial stability.

And, if interest rates rise, clubs with significant debt will be in even more trouble.

Many thought that the good times would last forever, others that they would burden the next generation with their xpenditures

[Patrick_Mucci]

I'm with PatC over PatM on this one. There's a reason maybe 1 in 20 of the private courses in USA belong to "golf only" clubs.

If there were some economically fundamental reason why golf only has a leg up over country clubs, those proportions would eventually invert.

They are, you and others just aren't aware of the  transitions, internal as well as external

[Tim Martin]

Does anyone really believe that Merion who committed to and was selected to
host the US Open in 2006 before the downturn in the economy agreed to host partially to attract members? Come on. I don't know where this inference originated from but I read through this thread and don't see anything pertaining to that. If I missed it please accept my apology.

Tim,

Apology accepted  

Please don't tell me that you gleen all there is to know about Merion from this thread  

Pat- You get an A for misdirection and an F for supplying proof of your supposition. I can't imagine that it is incumbent upon me to have some Kreskin like ability to figure out where you got your information. I am only holding you to the same standard that you demand for the rest of us and will be happy to apologize if and when you produce same.

[Patrick Kiser]

... Off the top of my head I can only recall Baltusrol, Pine Valley, Shinnecock, Adios and NGLA as being strictly golf clubs.

I'll add the following I'm aware of in my immediate area:

- The California Golf Club of San Francisco
- SFGC
- Lake Merced GC

Down in SoCal, I can think of these as well:

- Wilshire Country Club
- The San Diego Country Club

[Patrick_Mucci]

Does anyone really believe that Merion who committed to and was selected to
host the US Open in 2006 before the downturn in the economy agreed to host partially to attract members? Come on. I don't know where this inference originated from but I read through this thread and don't see anything pertaining to that. If I missed it please accept my apology.

Tim,

Apology accepted  

Please don't tell me that you gleen all there is to know about Merion from this thread  

Pat- You get an A for misdirection and an F for supplying proof of your supposition.
I can't imagine that it is incumbent upon me to have some Kreskin like ability to figure out where you got your information.
I am only holding you to the same standard that you demand for the rest of us and will be happy to apologize if and when you produce same.

And, it's not up to me to be the index or reference library for replies on other posts.

As my mother used to say to me when I asked her a question, "Seek, and ye shall find"

[PCCraig]

I'm with PatC over PatM on this one. There's a reason maybe 1 in 20 of the private courses in USA belong to "golf only" clubs.

If there were some economically fundamental reason why golf only has a leg up over country clubs, those proportions would eventually invert.

They are, you and others just aren't aware of the  transitions, internal as well as external

Can you elaborate?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat Mucci,

For the time being, the club certainly is out of the membership "woods" as we're effectively full and back to pre-recession levels. Our club has been around for a long time (120 years at the current location) and is located in a mature neighborhood literally in the middle of the 16th largest metropolitan area in the country. It's always been a "country club" and the depth of families in the area has always demanded it to be. We now have 135 social memberships and a fairly long waiting list for that type of membership. Because social members can't use the golf facilities and I don't mind activity in the clubhouse, pool, or tennis courts I don't understand why you somehow think that having social memberships change the culture of the club.

PCraig,

Anytime you infuse 100 new members, especially non-golf members, you're going to change the culture of the club.

As you add more and more non-golfing members, 135 currently, you'll eventually see the schism that arises between golf and non-golf activities and the vying for budget dollars, goods and services.

What seems like a good short term solution often turns into a long term problem.

Sorry, by defining "mostly" golf I meant a golf course and a clubhouse with light dining. So yes, "only" golf clubs in the area are struggling.

And these are strictly private clubs ?

Again, there is a general myth here on GCA that "Country Clubs" are bad for golf and aren't ideal.

Who mentioned or promoted that idea ?
Certainly not me and I don't recall any others making that statement.

Personally, I like being able to sit outside at a pool in the summer, play tennis, and especially golf. It's great being able to do all three (or more) things. Personally I find it ideal. But of course not everyone wants the CC deal and they play at "only" golf clubs, which is a consumer's choice. The beauty of having choices.

I don't disagree, but, at what cost are you willing to pay for ancillary or other services ?

So, it really doesn't make any sense (barring some miraculous data you have up your sleeve) that you somehow think Country Clubs are at a disadvantage in the hunt for new members.

They clearly are, for no other reason than cost.
The cost to belong to a golf ONLY club, versus a full services (golf, pool, tennis, paddle and daily three meal dining) clubs puts full service clubs at a distinct financial disadvantage

If anything, you can make the case that they are in a far better position. The times of being able to sell the Mrs. and kids on a golf course membership that doesn't come with dining, pool, tennis, kids events, etc. is ending fast.

The facts seem to contradict that.
How many golf "only" private clubs, versus full serice clubs, have gone out of business.
Cost is the differential.

And, I never found a club that made money in their food and beverage service.
Every club I've ever encountered lost money in the kitchen, that's why they have to enforce minimums.
Many clubs, lose more money as they serve more meals.

[Andrew Buck]

... Off the top of my head I can only recall Baltusrol, Pine Valley, Shinnecock, Adios and NGLA as being strictly golf clubs.

I'll add the following I'm aware of in my immediate area:

- The California Golf Club of San Francisco
- SFGC
- Lake Merced GC

Down in SoCal, I can think of these as well:

- Wilshire Country Club
- The San Diego Country Club

This has me thinking that some of these clubs are additional examples of location specific?  With Shinnecock an NGLA, the members with families are already spending summer in the Hampton's, and likely at the beach as is.  I would assume there is a natural social connection with that location and a built in place for the families to spend there day at the beach.  I have not been to either, but they clearly have clubhouses that are as spacious, or more, than the majority of Country Clubs in this Country and likely cost as much to maintain.

In Southern California, with year round outdoor activities and beaches, I wonder if swimming pools simply aren't the same draw as they can be in northern inland areas?  The San Francisco Golf clubs all have a pretty strong history, and San Francisco isn't really a pool destination.  I have no idea about their social offerings.

I think there is no doubt that there will always be a market in major metro's for some "Golf Clubs", and if they have a great track they will be fine.  At the same time, most major metro's will have a market for some "Country Clubs" as well.  In a metro like Chicago where you probably have 75 Country Clubs and 10 Golf Clubs, I have no doubt that more "Country Clubs" will die than the golf Clubs in absolute numbers, but I also have no doubt that there will be considerably more private Country Clubs than Golf Clubs overall.

[Tim Martin]

How do you know how Piping Rock, Olympic and TCC aren't concerned about weathering the membership storm ?
We've already heard from people who informed us that one of the reasons Merion hosted the Open was to bolster their membership.
If an iconic, old, prestigious club like Merion has membership concerns, what makes you think that other old, prestigious clubs don't have the same concerns ?[/size][/color][/color]

When and where did these people inform us? It's clear from the tenor of your post that you put weight behind these statements yet with further misdirection you indicate it's not incumbent upon you to provide proof. Sigh....

[JMEvensky]

Anytime you infuse 100 new members, especially non-golf members, you're going to change the culture of the club.

As you add more and more non-golfing members, 135 currently, you'll eventually see the schism that arises between golf and non-golf activities and the vying for budget dollars, goods and services.



And, I never found a club that made money in their food and beverage service.
Every club I've ever encountered lost money in the kitchen, that's why they have to enforce minimums.
Many clubs, lose more money as they serve more meals.[/size][/color]

Amen and amen.You'd think these kinds of things would be self evident.

Pat,I understand you've never locked your locker.Did you get clipped for cash and/or credit cards?

I saw the article but don't know how to link it.Where's David Tepper when you need him?

[Jeff Shelman]

My opinion: There are way too many variables to say whether golf-only clubs are better positioned or whether more full-service country clubs are better positioned.

Factors include:
-quality of course
-quality of management
-size of market
-part of the country
-how much competition is there for members?
-how good is the competition?
-average family income of members
-proximity to high-income areas of a town or metro area
-financial health/debt of a club
-overall club culture

There are just so many things that go into whether a club can make it or not. There are so many different reasons why someone chooses one club over another.

In some markets a golf-only club might fare well. In other markets, the club with the pool and fitness might have the best chance of surviving .

[Andrew Buck]

And, I never found a club that made money in their food and beverage service.
Every club I've ever encountered lost money in the kitchen, that's why they have to enforce minimums.
Many clubs, lose more money as they serve more meals.[/size][/color]

Pat,

This is a good point, and does highlight the problem with trying to be all things to all people.  While I know our Club couldn't survive as a private Golf Club only, and the pool pays for itself with social members there for the pool, but the changing dynamic for dinners is certainly at play.  

There are very few members who utilize the Club for dinners regularly.  Friday night is fairly crowded, but it's also a lot of families with kids eating in the bar.  The reality is, I'd love to do away with the formal dinning.  You could cater the 3 - 4 big events, and do simple bar food the rest of the time.  That said, you may have 20 people paying full golf memberships, simply because they like to eat at the club a couple Fridays and have lunch there after Church on Sunday.  

I think it just further highlights there are so many variables for each Club.  I'm also curious, are dues at the clubs you mentioned less than their CC counterparts as you suggest?  

[Rob_Waldron]

Mr. Craig

I never said anything about building a new course. However I do believe and alternative use for an existing failing private club or upscale daily fee course in a golf only private club. As a completely different model from other area full service country clubs who cater to the families my concept would cater to dedicated golfers. The overall expense model would be far below that of a full service club thereby permitting lower ID and dues.

[Lester George]

Kinloch Golf Club

Great culture, adjusted to the demand of allowing more National Members and is (according to some) the best experience for Golf Only clubs.

They are doing well.

Lester

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

In some ways, Shinny and NGLA are very much part of a country club  like atmosphere.  A very sizable percentage of their membership belongs to Southampton Bathing, Inc., Quogue Field Club, and Meadow Club, or at least has no access issues.

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