Fine Wine or Vinegar?

[Jason Topp]

Some courses get better as you play them more.  Others do not improve or get worse.  Provide two examples from your experience and analyze why you think one gets better and the other gets worse.

[Josh Tarble]

To make this analogy accurate, you have to realize some wines have been stored in a cellar, and some have been stored on someone's counter-top.

[Phil McDade]

Jason:

I appreciate Ozaukee CC the more I see it:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,44430.0.html

I was first sort of initially disappointed in it, as it's an original Langford/Moreau, and I went there looking for another Lawsonia. It's not, and in particular its bunkers for the most part are decidedly un-Langford like.

But somehow that made me miss what is an excellent routing (save for one odd quirky transition on the front nine), with typically smart use of various land features to create interest on many holes, and a terrific set of greens. Some very good par 4s, a terrific 18th, and a bunch of very good stuff all around.

University Ridge, hear in the Madison WI area, grows on me less and less: http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,38431.0.html

I really liked it when it first opened, and now realize that was largely due to it being so much better in so many ways (conditioning, variety of architecture, some really good holes, a very nice setting) than what was available locally. But as my appreciation for golf architecture has grown, I've come to the conclusion that URidge is fundamentally flawed, largely from a routing decision made by RTJ JR. That it's been lengthened by 400-some yards -- in some cases inappropriately so -- reinforces my view. A course with a bunch of good holes that can be a pain to play.

[Jon Wiggett]

Well, I'll give you the obvious one of TOC but also a second of Abernethy which is a little 9 holer near Boat of Garten. Abernethy has all the quirk and charm to satisfy any standard of player. Probably not worth a 5 hour drive to play but a course you can easily spend a day chipping and putting around the greens.

On the negative side I will give you Wakefield Golf Club (Woodthorpe) which despite being a fine course just seems to get duller though I have never been able to put my finger on it.

Jon

[Sean_A]

I think The Addington has slowly become less appealing to me.  Part of that is down to the type of shots required and part is down to the lack of care for the course.  

The more I have played Hunstanton the more I see and like.  

I would probably say the two are about dead even for preference, but the trend has been strongly in favour of Hunstanton.  It helps the club is so welcoming.

Ciao

[Matthew Essig]

I will use two courses that everybody knows about.

Fine Wine: Bandon Dunes
At first, I thought it was too gimmicky and not exactly a links course. Now, it has grown on me and I don't see that as much.

Vinegar: Old Mac
It was nice seeing all the template holes used. The green complexes are amazing. I think it is a spectacular course; however, it is starting to become less so. I think it may be due to it being SO spectacular the first couple times I played it that it isn't creating the same type of sensation now.

P.S. Pacific Dunes has always been great.

[Andrew Buck]

University Ridge, hear in the Madison WI area, grows on me less and less: http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,38431.0.html

I really liked it when it first opened, and now realize that was largely due to it being so much better in so many ways (conditioning, variety of architecture, some really good holes, a very nice setting). But as my appreciation for golf architecture has grown, I've come to the conclusion that URidge is fundamentally flawed, largely from a routing decision made by RTJ JR. That it's been lengthened by 400-some yards -- in some cases inappropriately so -- reinforces my view. A course with a bunch of good holes that can be a pain to play.

I would think this is the case for me quite often.  I remember playing there in a Western Jr Am not long after it opened (91 or 92) and loved it.  In hindsight, at the time I just wasn't that used to modern professionally designed courses, nor accustomed to "Country Club" quality fairways and green speeds, so those types of courses really impressed me, but now my taste has become more refined and I'm certainly more critical of them.

OTOH, some older and simpler courses tend to grow on me, particularly the subtlety of the greens at my home club.

[Steve Kline]

Andrew - I played in that Western Jr Am in '93.

[Dan Kelly]

My new home course, Midland Hills CC (Roseville, Minnesota; 1920; Seth Raynor, originally) continues to grow on me, as I expected it would. Why? Because it's never easy nor impossible; because long-ball and shorter hitters can both answer its challenges; because almost every hole can be approached on the ground or through the air; because after 35 or 40 rounds, I'm still seeing new and interesting hole locations; because the course is capable of firmness on the ground; because, in a word, it's fun. I don't look forward with dread to a single hole; I think that's the key to a course growing on me: 18 holes I enjoy playing.

Two local courses that I haven't played nearly so often, but aren't growing on me: Golden Valley and Southview. Why? Because there are too many spots on both courses where only a very specific shot to a very specific spot will do; too many holes that, to me, aren't, in a word, fun (e.g., GV Nos. 7 and 10; SV Nos. 1 and 9). There are lots of individual holes that I love on both courses (considerably more at Golden Valley than at Southview), but my feeling about the *course* depends on the entire collection.

[Ian Andrew]

Fine Wine

For me the course that gets better with every play (30 rounds and counting) is Lookout Point CC (Travis) in Fonthill, Ontario. It is probably my single favourite play year each year which always includes  a series of far more famous Canadian courses. There is not a single course in Canada that requires more attention to the ground than Lookout Point and I love trying to play the shots it requires.

Vinegar

I have deep respect for The National as tough as nails test. I get a regular set of invites to play there, but each time I go and play I find more faults. It’s not vinegar, far from it, but each play points out something else I wish they did differently. It is supposed to be our best according to Canadians, but I can never find the reason for that high standing.


Of note: We opened a bottle of Abstract by Orin Smith tonight and were both a little underwhelmed by the very first taste (had expectations since we are huge fans of The Prisoner), interestingly we both enjoyed the wine much more as we went and eventually both felt another bottle was worth purchasing. Sometimes it’s something subtle that makes the greatest impact in the long run.

[Joe Hancock]

So, to paraphrase what Ian said, "the more I drink, the better the golf course gets!".

Sorry, Ian, I couldn't resist.

Hope you're well,

Joe

[Ian Andrew]

Joe,

Awesome!

Doesn't mean your wrong

Ian

[Steve Kline]

That sums up the while thread and it applies to everything in life.

[Dan Kelly]

That sums up the while thread and it applies to everything in life.

Ludwig Mies van der Rohe put it this way: "God is in the details."

[Don_Mahaffey]

Fine Wine.
Definitely going to look like a homer, but now, 7 years later, I think Wolf Point is better then ever.
The more I travel and the more I see, the more I think WP is really something special.

Pacific Dunes has aged beautifully.

[Niall C]

A course I hadn't played in a while and which was much better than I remembered was Boat of Garten. What struck me when I played a couple of rounds there recently was how good the routing was in the way it used the ground and what is a relatively tight site compared to modern tracks.

Niall

[Lou_Duran]

That sums up the while thread and it applies to everything in life.

Ludwig Mies van der Rohe put it this way: "God is in the details."

And where does 'familiarity breeds contempt" fit into this?

Fine wine: the pre-Nicklaus Scarlet course at Ohio State; probably played it 500 times, never got tired of it, and missed it like crazy when I left.  Haven't played it since the redo a few years back, and I am not sure I want to for fear of spoiling my fond memories.

Vinegar: If God is in the details, perhaps ambiguity (or ignorance) is bliss.  The course where I am currently playing (which will remain unnamed) has wide fairways, large greens, attractive, friendly bunkers, and is well-maintained.  The management is big on teeing it forward, so though it doesn't play long from the back tees, it plays really short from the second set.  For a gambler, it would be the worst course in the world to establish a handicap.  Recently, the superintendent. verticut the TifEagle greens and they were rolling out to about 11' this past Saturday.  It's been very hot, so the course is firming up a bit, and the ball is getting some roll into the thick 419 rough.  Actually, the vinegar this time was tasting more like an inexpensive, though acceptable house wine.  Which gets me to thinking that at the second tier, perhaps the superintendent has as much to do with how a course is perceived/enjoyed as the architect.

[Sean_A]

Which gets me to thinking that at the second tier, perhaps the superintendent has as much to do with how a course is perceived/enjoyed as the architect.

Lou, I agree. The best courses can't have their attributes hidden to the point of where they can't be seen even if they can't be properly enjoyed.  Many of the the 2nd-3rd courses often need that boost of good maintenance to enhance the game a bit.

Ciao

[Jason Topp]

I started this topic but am having trouble coming up with a Vinegar example that I can defend.  The more I have thought about it the more I think most courses get more interesting with repeat play.  There are always subtelties that are fun to discover and decide how to attack.