Ballyneal Par 3's

[Bill_McBride]

While running through the thread on architectural features at Ballyneal, I thought for a moment about the par 3's.  What a great set!

What's your favorite there?

How would you rank the four?

[Bill_McBride]

I'll start.  I really loved that little 3rd hole, so many interesting contours. The green looks big but the slopes can take what looks like a good shot off the green into a bunker. 

Next for me is 11, a really lovely green perched atop a knob. 

Then 15, the longest, with a wildly contoured green that can feed your shot back left.  This is not too helpful if the pin is front left.  I don't know how to get to that pin.

5 is a good hole but I didn't care much for the front right pin.  I'm sure there is a way to get within 30', but I couldn't figure it out. 

[Ross Harmon]

Here's the way I rank them...

#3 is certainly a special hole and my favorite as well. I almost always take a picture there, often times a group shot.

#15 is my second favorite due to the variety of clubs that the hole can require, various approaches one can take to the same pin (draw, fade, bank) and the "surprise" factor of seeing exactly how close you go.

#5 is growing on me. Alot of fun putts to be had on that green. I usually tee off from the fringe of #4, so it's the shortest green to tee on the course too.

#11 is a tough hole if you miss the green. Maybe that's why it's my least favorite. Winds can be very exciting from up on top of that hill! An especially fun and challenging hole from the back and side tee boxes.

[Steve Lapper]

Do any of you, who have played both, think Ballyneals's 3's hold a candle to Sand Hills? Just wondering??

[Jim Colton]

Steve Lapper, thread killer.

While I enjoy the par 3's at Ballyneal, they are far from the first thing I talk about when discussing the merits of the course. Even as an "apologist", I can't say that they are a better set than Sand Hills. There probably isn't a par 3 at BN that's better than the 17th at SH.

I'd go 3/5/11/15 in order of preference.

[Alex Miller]

Jim, agreed. I think Ballyneal has immensely strong 4's and very good 5's, but the 3's just aren't as outstanding as a group to me. Still good though.

I go:
#3
#15
#5
#11

[Steve Lapper]

Steve Lapper, thread killer.

While I enjoy the par 3's at Ballyneal, they are far from the first thing I talk about when discussing the merits of the course. Even as an "apologist", I can't say that they are a better set than Sand Hills. There probably isn't a par 3 at BN that's better than the 17th at SH.

I'd go 3/5/11/15 in order of preference.

Jim,

   I'm with you on the order you picked. I don't wish to be a thread killer, but the subject has been discussed here before and I think it's worthy to look at Deliciouses to Goldens instead of otherwise.  You, better than most, know what balance is worth.

  

[Matt Glore]

I like them in order they are played
3, 5, 11, and 15

[Scott Warren]

5 and 3 are the standouts for me. If pressed I'd probably say I prefer the 5th.

That tiny bunker front of the green creates so much interest and challenge, especially with a helping wind, and the green contours are great.

Lots of options to bounce one in or bank it off a slope.

[Tom_Doak]

There probably isn't a par 3 at BN that's better than the 17th at SH.

I still don't understand why the 17th at Sand Hills is in the pantheon of great short holes. 

It has a beautiful background and setting.  It's surrounded by bunkers, so that only one shot will do, and that shot is sometimes nearly impossible to execute in the wind.  And what else?  Or does that really make it one of the great par-3's of the world?

If that's the definition, then there is nothing at Ballyneal that can compare.  Every one of those par-3's gives you a place to miss, and different ways to try to get close to different hole locations.

[Richard Choi]

I agree with Jim. I do like the par threes at SH more than the par threes at BN. For me, it is more visual. I don't think I have ever seen more stunning set of par threes as I have seen at SH. They play great as they look.

As to BN, I LOVE LOVE LOVE the 15th. Hitting to that punchbowl is like opening a box of chocolates.

[Rob Rigg]

#3 - A hole that you feel like you should make a bird on every time you step on the tee, par at worst - but it can bite you in a big a way if you stray into several of the bunkers (the bank bunkers isn't bad) or the junk. A super fun short hole.

#5 - The front bunker is fantastic! The slope on the right side of the green and the slope on the left provide both challenge and options. The hole can get very challenging if you play it from the back left of the 4th green or you can play it short, which is a bit easier but a par on this hole is always solid. I feel like the wind impacts the 5th more than any of the other one shotters (it influences 11 a bunch as well).

#15 - Pretty elastic as well, and always fun to see where your tee shot ends up. Also some fun putting options depending on pin position.

#11 - Can become quite challenging depending on the wind - There is always a nice bail out option on the right side. Too far left is usually death and those little pot bunkers can make life tough as well.

I'd agree with the other comments that the one shot holes are not what makes Ballyneal so special, but I do believe that they provide a good mix of challenge and shot requirements, especially with the super flexible teeing options.

[Ben Sims]

I'm a big fan of #15 for two reasons.  It offers extreme flexibility in terms of length and shot type.  It also has the knoll on the right of the green that separates par from bogey quite judiciously.  That theme (on other holes as well as 15) is key to why it is possibly the best match play golf course I've ever seen.

But if I'm being emotional instead of intellectual, #3 is my favorite short par three of any I've ever played.  It's better than all of the old guard standards (Pine Valley #10, Augusta #12, and yes, even NGLA #6).

[Steve Lapper]

I agree with Jim. I do like the par threes at SH more than the par threes at BN. For me, it is more visual. I don't think I have ever seen more stunning set of par threes as I have seen at SH. They play great as they look.

As to BN, I LOVE LOVE LOVE the 15th. Hitting to that punchbowl is like opening a box of chocolates.

Rich,

   I have to question the playing features of the 15th??? In multiple go-rounds, I've seen at least a handful or more of poor-to-mediocre tee shots end up 15 feet or closer to that day's pin. The surrounding mounds provide a pinball effect that is definitely entertaining, but hardly much more than a little goofy golf.

   If Tom's questioning of #17 at SH belonging among the pantheon of great short holes is valid for not having anywhere to miss*, does the doppelganger corollary that one can handily miss on BN #15 and end up with a good, if not great, result equally misguided logic? I'd venture to say so.

   For the record, I really enjoyed the other three par 3's at BN much, much more and think highly of the place.

* Tom....would you eliminate #9 at Myopia; #10 at PVGC; the Postage Stamp 8th at Royal Troon; 17 at Sawgrass; 13 at Merion; #11 at Plainfield;  or #17 at Friars Head from such a pantheon as well??

[Keith OHalloran]

Tom,
I have never been to Ballyneal, so I can't comment on the par 3s there, but will try and chime in about the 17th at SH. Perhaps people are willing to accept a do or die, type demanding shot on the short par 3, and an available miss is not necessary? The 11th at Shinnecock, the 17th at Sand Hills, as Steve mentioned, the Postage Stamp.  I think the 17th at Sand Hills is a great hole because it is demanding, yet I never feel like it is outside my capabilities.

[Tim Bert]

I still don't understand why the 17th at Sand Hills is in the pantheon of great short holes. 

It has a beautiful background and setting.  It's surrounded by bunkers, so that only one shot will do, and that shot is sometimes nearly impossible to execute in the wind.  And what else?  Or does that really make it one of the great par-3's of the world?

The 11th at Pacific Dunes pretty much matches this criteria and I think it is one of the great par 3s that I have played. 

Back on topic, at Ballyneal 3 and 5 are my two favorites.

[Jerry Kluger]

I have to say that #5 is truly a great hole and probably under appreciated. First, we always let the player with the best score on #4 pick the tee on #5 which is an extension of the green.  It is amazing how different the hole is based upon which tee box you choose.  Not because of the length but because of the angle and if that nasty front bunker comes into play.  There are other holes which may be better visually but I don't know of any which has so much variety without changing length. 

[David Royer]

Since I have a Dick Durrance photo on my den wall of three, I ll start there.  I just returned from a three day visit. 11 with a front hole position is a great shot.  15 from the tips is always fun.  5 I think is the hidden gem.  Rob is spot on about the angles and how it changes the hole.  What makes the set so special to me is each can bring a smile to your face in an instant. 

[Eric Smith]

What makes the set so special to me is each can bring a smile to your face in an instant.  

You said it, David. Even the shi**y shots.



3, 5, 11, 15 = my preference.

[Richard Choi]

Steve, where is your sense of fun???

I love #15 for the following.

First, I love that for you to get it close you usually have to hit away from the green. That always makes low handicappers nervous and grumbling, but to me it is a great psychological test.

Second, the green and its surroundings are like a giant 3D puzzle. You have to be able to reconstruct the green and its surrounding in your mind and have to try to figure out how best to plan out the trajectory that will get you close to the pin. The fact that there are usually multiple ways of achieving that goal just adds to the complex puzzle.

Third, I get delirious with anticipation after I hit my shot all the way till I walk over the hump and finally see where my ball ended up and whether or not it matched my expectation. The exhilaration that I experience in that anticipation is rarely matched anywhere.

[Steve Lapper]

Rich,

   I'm as much for fun as anyone   . I love blind shots, anticipation and surprise as much as a Scot. I like par 4 Punchbowls, ricochet shots, and the rub-of-the-green a ton. Heck, I even took my hickories out to Sand Hills last weekend to play around with. Even smiled cheek-to-cheek when my shot banged off the mound at #3 and kicked back beyond the pin.

   What I'm not a fan of is the randomness of #15 and the alchemy of turning a poorly hit shot into a winner. For me, it tempers skill and rewards mediocrity. I'm not sure I've seen that elsewhere across the world on a longish par 3 (save for the blinded left side found at Cruden Bay's #16), and suspect it's for good reason.

   I'll agree it's different strokes for different folks and am happy the hole pleases you so much, yet I very much question it's strategic value beyond moderate entertainment. The others at BN are much better IMO and as a set, strongly prefer Sand Hills.
 
  

[Richard Choi]

I still disagree that it is all random. Yes, because it is a punchbowl and everything feeds to the green, you will have more instances where a wayward shot find its way to the hole. However, there are multiple sections within the green, to have a reasonable chance at a birdie, you have to know where to go with a specific shot shape. Without it, it will be purely random and chances of you getting it close consistently is virtually nil. I think you are selling the strategic nature of this hole quite short.

[Michael George]

Re: Ballyneal, I think #11 is the best par 3. First, It plays different from each tee, especially the tips from back on top of that large mound.  Second, I think it plays the best of the 4 in the wind as it provides a bail out on the right side of the green so that anyone should be able to bogey if they want.  Last I think it can play a lot of different ways depending on the pin.
I think #3 is the second best due to a great green
#15 is my 3rd favorite.  I love the hole. It is pure fun. However it seems to play similarly each time. Hit over the hump and hope.
#5 is solid but clearly 4th in my opinion.

Re: Sand Hills, my favorite par 3 is #13 - just a unique uphill par 3. Next is 17, followed by 3 and then 6.  I don't think they are much better than Balyneal's. Both courses par 3s are very good, but both courses are more defined by their par 4 and 5 holes.

Tom - I actually felt that #17 at Sand Hills was very similar to #11 at Pacific Dunes. I loved both short, slightly uphill par 3s as they can be a wedge to a 5 iron depending on the wind. Both had small greens with little bail out area. Do you agree with me?  What differences do you see?  

[Tom_Doak]

Tom - I actually felt that #17 at Sand Hills was very similar to #11 at Pacific Dunes. I loved both short, slightly uphill par 3s as they can be a wedge to a 5 iron depending on the wind. Both had small greens with little bail out area. Do you agree with me?  What differences do you see?  

Michael:

The difference is that the 11th at Pacific Dunes offers room in front and room behind the hole for some leeway in the wind.  The bunkers in front are a good twenty yards short of the green, though the bit of approach fairway is hidden.  And at the back it's pretty narrow, but there is a bit of broken-up backstop of turf at the back, that Jim Urbina shaped in when we lowered the level of the green.  So you can be a little short or a little long when the hole is downwind, and you're still okay.  The 17th at Sand Hills doesn't give you that, and people seem to like it more, because it doesn't.

[John Kirk]

After reading Steve Lapper's first post, I'm going to chime in and read the posts later.

As of today, I like the par 3s at Ballyneal in the following order:

11-15-5-3

I like Ballyneal's par 3s a little better than the Sand Hills par 3s.  They are more flexible in terms of playability, and the way they can be set up.

At Sand Hills, I think #3 and #6 have limited pin positions.  I like #3 better than #6, and very much enjoy the huge shoulder on the 3rd green.  In general, there are too many times where you are just playing for, and achieving, bogey after an indifferent tee shot.

My least favorite hole on Ballyneal is the 3rd hole.  Maybe I should say it's my 18th favorite.