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ward peyronnin

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The Confidential Guide to The International, NE
« on: July 29, 2013, 11:05:23 PM »
I have invoked Tom Doak's landmark book critiquing GCA because I sense that since we , as recent Buda Cup benficiaries, are expected to not be critical of the participating venues but this particular course inclusion bears a close examination. Especially since many of us came to play H. Colt or other 20th C designs. Moreover  in my mind this design pushes the question forward once again of what place novelty courses have in contemporary design.

This new course is situated on spoil land bounded by the Amsterdam airport and "Interstate" Hwy. Evidently many of the features were plotted 20 plus yrs ago and then filled in as it served as a debris dump. Then a different architect was handed the ground and made a golf course out of this originally Netherlands grade flat sight.

I should start with the positives of a beautiful Intl style clubhouse of stone , glass, and steel and well appointed course features such as Belgian style diamond shaped belgian pavers set in grout for cart paths and gorgeous ashlar stone retaining walls protecting green siites. The course was also in very good condition. However apparent good taste missapplied is the Achilles heel of this place. The pavers that look so nice are a Portugese chert that becomes slick as you know what and totally impractical when wet. And it continues.

The opening hole is a five par with what became a pattern of overbunkering with flashed faced lobed bunkers that realistically invoked a blow out grotesque more attributable to a wayward giant hand than any natural force of nature and which concealed further bunkering set into a raised green. The this third was another par five with a blind layup or a shot at a moated green with bunkering backing up a long approach over the water( needless to say one then faced a sand shot onto a downslope with water long). When asked to play a short par four on the front I counted 8 separate bunkers the last of which produced a semi blind pitch onto a downslope one couldn't see and a green surrounded by disconnected mounding and dish collection areas interspersed with more bunkers.

The Intl has so many of the features most on this site abhor: links style holes with trees planted on the separation ridges, hazards hidden by hazards, a waterfall on polder ground emanating from a noise screen mound bordering the road, forced carries over pristine ashalr moat walls, a landscape when viewed from the tallest tee of giant chocolate drops joggling across 360 degrees of the horizon, green and green surround features that bore no connectivity to the green surrounds or adjacent field of play, one of the weakest collection of par fives with forced carries and etc  and lo profile mounds in landing areas that kick shots invited to land there 90 degrees sideways into hazards, giant airbuses and boeings on a five minute interval literally dropping  110 meters over our heads.

In my mind it is a dreadful track; really like a golf nightmare, and I lost interest after the fourth hole seeking refuge in the lively tales , good company, and repartee of my fourball partner Hart Huffines. really a waste of four and a half house of my life although it was fun to watch Ulrich play lights out.

Our exposure to this travesty was justified on the grounds that there was not another golf experience with the hardscape, topography, "Las Vegas" like atmosphere available in Ne. So

Is this a novelty course as suggested and , in lieu of the Netherlands golfing public voting with their euros,  are architects advancing a body of work turning something like this out as product?
"Golf is happiness. It's intoxication w/o the hangover; stimulation w/o the pills. It's price is high yet its rewards are richer. Some say its a boys pastime but it builds men. It cleanses the mind/rejuvenates the body. It is these things and many more for those of us who truly love it." M.Norman

Mark Pearce

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Re: The Confidential Guide to The International, NE
« Reply #1 on: July 30, 2013, 04:30:12 AM »
Ward,

I do think discussion of The International is exactly the sort of conversation this board should be for.  More of my thoughts later (I want to comment on a couple of other courses we played first) but I think it is worth noting that The International is one of the more expensive courses to join in the Netherlands and, apparently, has already attracted 500 members, so those people at least like it.  LIke you it really wan't my cup of tea at all.  The contrast in the quality of shaping between The International and Swinkelsche, which cost far less to build (even with the cart paths discounted) was astonishing to me.  I know a lot of people who would have loved it, though but none of them frequent this site.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Mark Pearce

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Re: The Confidential Guide to The International, NE
« Reply #2 on: July 31, 2013, 09:23:13 AM »
BUMP

Come on, 17 of us played here, this site is intended for frank discussion of golf courses, has no-one else got an opinion?
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Bill Brightly

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Re: The Confidential Guide to The International, NE
« Reply #3 on: July 31, 2013, 09:51:07 AM »
As someone else said, The International is like so many other Florida courses but it happens to be located in the Netherlands. This is certainly the type of course that will get panned by many GCA members, especially a group that traveled many miles to see the work of Colt, Alison & Morrison. But I can easily see how many casual golfers in the Netherlands will find the course appealing. It is very close to Amsterdam,  is in excellent shape, and has many cool/demanding golf shots.

Ward accurately describes the par 5 third, a hole that I felt like I had played countless times: "reachable" par 5 except that the second shot is to a moated green with no safe place to miss, complete with stone wall over the pond. (That is if the beautiful specimen tree in front of the pond does not block your approach to the green.) To me there is no other play but driver, 5 iron (aimed 50 yards right of the green,) and then wedge. I don't think even my career best 3 wood would have held the green. Andrew hit his drive SO far that he was complelled to go for the green (to avoid being called a wimpy professional by his opponents.) He dunked it in the water for one of his rare bogeys and I'm sure he feels it was a dumb play.

One thing I have learned: if you give the golfing public at large superb conditioning, plenty of eye candy, and repeated "drama," you will find a segemnt of golfers far larger than GCA.COM who will approve.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2013, 09:58:44 AM by Bill Brightly »

David Davis

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Re: The Confidential Guide to The International, NE
« Reply #4 on: July 31, 2013, 03:18:52 PM »
I will of course chime in here. I laughed quite hard at Ward's recollection of this course, mainly because I could imagine the words coming out of his mouth and the look of disgust on his face. Personally I'm very glad that I added it to the trip as the contrast of the newest courses in NL being Swinkelsche and The International really give us something significant to discuss.

It is in fact true that many are calling The International the best course in NL. I disagree of course but for all of you that have played so many of the Florida courses what you have to realize is that in The Netherlands we only have a couple and they are all very private clubs and very expensive. Therefore the appeal is likely to those wealthy enough to afford this modern luxury and high standard of service (which we certainly did not see on our visit).

The second par 5, well I played driver rescue alongside the green to the right of the water taking it out of play, then chipped to a gimme birdie unfortunately halfed by the other David's long winding put from the fringe, it really is a bad hole, no way around it.

One of the things I like actually are the green complexes and normally the greens are fast. This is rare in NL I have to say. I also like the fact that the course has a clockwise/counterclockwise routing for the most part which plays well with the wind and then has a pretty decent mix of long and short holes. Incidentally, the second time I played, which was with the group, enabled me to examine closer and I would have to say the course dropped quite a bit in my personal assessment.

It just can't be compared to classic architecture, it's like comparing a modern glass house in NL to a classic gentleman's house situated on an Amsterdam canal. As far as that goes the contrast fits well into the Dutch society and landscape.

The International is successful because of it's location, the "luxury" it offers and the fact that GCA in NL consists of less experts and enthusiasts that you can count on two hands. One man's junk is another man's treasure and the fact that, and read this very carefully, there are only a small handful of classic courses, all are full and extremely difficult if not impossible to get into, money can't buy your way in. Therefore this course fills a place, hate it or love but then again so does Vegas or many other places that have tons of kitsch golf courses in the US.
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David Davis

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Re: The Confidential Guide to The International, NE
« Reply #5 on: July 31, 2013, 03:20:08 PM »
Ward one other small point, NE stands for Nebraska. NL stands for The Netherlands. I actually wasn't sure what course you were talking about and I live here. Maybe that's why so few people have commented?
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Dónal Ó Ceallaigh

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Re: The Confidential Guide to The International, NE
« Reply #6 on: July 31, 2013, 05:02:05 PM »
I actually enjoyed the International, but I do understand that if you were expecting early 20C architecture, you'd be bitterly disappointed. I tend to like courses that require me to think a little more than usual, so I was quite happy with holes such as the 3rd, 5th (although I didn't think well enough to check the water in front of the green, and belted a nice drive right up the middle to a watery grave) and 6th on the front nine. I quite liked the options on the 16th as well.

The shaping around the greens has a sharpness that does look a bit unnatural and each successive green tries to outdo the previous one, with even more levels, steeper slopes, and more nooks and crannies than an old country house.

I thought that some of the chocolate-drop mounds built into the edges of the greens were a bit severe. They are so high and steep, with the result that you have no shot if you're on the wrong side of one of these mounds.

You all know that cow hide symbol you see on shoes and jackets to denote real leather. The greens at the International reminded me of that symbol, as many were of a similar shape. With such irregular shaped greens, it would not be unusual to find yourself with a few impossible putts during a round.

I thought the use of water as a hazard was restrained - for a modern course with a Woosnam signature! Although there is water present on the 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th and 9th holes, it is really only hard up against the green on the 3rd and 4th, and to a lesser extent on the 5th. There is water again on the 10th, 13th, 15th, 16th and 18th, but only at the 18th is it difficult to avoid. I really detest water within a few feet of the putting green, and thankfully this is only a feature on three to four holes. That's not a bad ratio by modern standards.

The approach to the first green is a bit confusing, especially when playing early in the morning towards a rising sun. Some of the bunkers do resemble star shaped craters, with the crater wall higher than the surrounding fairway and the bunker floor. When you bunch a load of these together, or in line with each other, it does look a bit muddled to the eye. Throw in a low rising sun and it does look a bit lunaresque.

I didn't see anything too bad with the 3rd hole, but I'd probably need to play it a few times going all down the left or all down the right. If you've hit your drive down the right and the hole is located where it was for us, there's only one option and that's lay up right of the green. With a hole located on the left side of the green, the hole will obviously play very differently.

Not a big fan of water, but the par three 4th was acceptable to me.


The par three 4th at The International.

Obvious play at the 5th is to lay up, but you have a better angle to the green from the more dangerous left side. It's got a pretty wild green.

I chose the left option at the 6th but hit it towards the right edge of the green. I made it across the water, but I had a difficult chip over a mound. It's not a bad hole in my opinion.

The 7th is a decent par three requiring a draw; the left side is guarded by a couple of bunkers. Myself, Conrad and Joe all bailed out on the right and got our just desserts; a difficult pitch to a hole cut just behind a small mound and shoulder.

The 8th is a decent par five with a slightly confusing tee shot. There appears to be a number of bunkers dotted here and there, and it only becomes clearer as you approach the landing zone for the drive. There's a centerline bunker just short of the green that needs to be negotiated with the second shot. Another big undulating green. Not a terrible hole either.

The 9th is a long par four that has everything! Waterfalls, bunkers bordering water, and the hum of planes in the background. I guess the bunkers at the corner of the dogleg are there to entice the brave. The greenside bunkers make the second shot more difficult as they eat into the right side of the green. A decent hole if you can ignore the distractions.  

I'll comment on the second nine later.


Looking back down the 10th. Think cow-hide  ;)
« Last Edit: July 31, 2013, 05:10:25 PM by Dónal Ó Ceallaigh »

Ulrich Mayring

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Re: The Confidential Guide to The International, NE
« Reply #7 on: July 31, 2013, 05:20:40 PM »
I'll start off with a question. Is architectural merit the main or even the only source of fun during a round of golf?

Anyhow, here's my review for the course:

When no expenses are spared during construction, a brawny, modern course is usually the result. In this case the site was completely flat and the soil rather unimpressive as well. After sand capping throughout, it now enjoys playing characteristics worthy of a championship course. The clubhouse and the services provided are as expected at an expensive private club.

Unfortunately the atmosphere leaves a lot to be desired. First off, the Schiphol / Amsterdam airport is nearby and jets will take off and land right over the golf course. And even if they don't, there's always the motorway serving up a continuous background soundtrack. Then the surrounding area is all industrial, so any view from higher up also includes some ugly buildings in the background. The basic rectangularity of the site does not help with the flow either - it's back and forth and back again.

The hole designs, on the other side, are mostly very good, if not exceptional. While good golfers will be challenged, the course remains very playable for the average member. Perhaps some of the rather undulated greens are a bit harsh, but the overall experience qualifies as a proper round of golf. It is not monotonous and, despite a general lack of quirkiness, there is some fun to be had.

Ulrich

PS: This course is the only one that has its own thread on GCA, what does that tell us? :)
Golf Course Exposé (300+ courses reviewed), Golf CV (how I keep track of 'em)

Mark Pearce

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Re: The Confidential Guide to The International, NE
« Reply #8 on: July 31, 2013, 06:01:30 PM »
I hated the International.  As I e-mailed another GCAer, on the 12th I pulled my drive left of a mound into what looked like knee high rough.  As I approached it, it became apparent that far from being irretrievably lost there was a chance my ball could be found.  As I got closer it became clear that not only might I find the ball but it might be playable.  A few yards more and my heart sank when it became apparent that not only was my ball found easily but that I would be able to play out the hole.

I'm pleased Donal found it made him think.  Frankly, armed with decent eyesight and a course planner I didn't find a hole that required more than a moment's thought as to how to play it but Donal is a better player than me.  The greens are the highlight of the course. They are a fairly wild set with large internal contours, each green is, in itself  three or four separate putting areas.  The trouble is that there is no cohesion or sense in the way they set in the hole.  The green surrounds simply do not work with the greens and the green surrounds do not fit with the fairways.

Worst of all though is the shaping around the fairways.  Boring, conical mound after boring conical mound.  No attempt has been made to make this course feel natural.  There may, actually, be a half decent design trying to get out here. The shaping, however, has killed it stone dead.  With the air traffic, the water and the motorway (and the almost brilliant fountain built into the embankment of the road) this is golf on the set of Bladerunner.  All the money spent on the absurd cart paths and stone wall bulkheads could have paid for a few decent shapers, rather than the waste dumping exercise that took place.  However, the way the construction money was spent reflects the  priorities of the business.

The clubhouse was, however, splendid and I understand memberships have sold well.  This course reminded me a little of Peter Alliss and Clive Clark's Castle Combe.  Whilst Castle Combe is a far superior course because, inter alia, it is built on far more exciting land, it shared, on some holes, the same awful shaping.  At CC, however, that shaping scars a couple of holes.  At The International it is there on nearly every hole.  I dumped my tee shot on the 4th in the water and couldn't be bothered to put another ball in play.  Only 4 holes in I had lost interest in the round.  Those here who have played with me will understand how rare, perhaps even unique that is.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

David Kelly

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Re: The Confidential Guide to The International, NE
« Reply #9 on: July 31, 2013, 06:30:51 PM »
The course is what it is, not a place I would have went to on my own but we had a good match and I didn't mind playing there.  That said I didn't need to experience The International and would have preferred an additional round at any of the other courses we played.

With a budget far, far less than The International I would recommend Frank Pont's Turfvaert course.  The course was built on similarly flat ground but instead of moving all the earth to make containment mounds to hide the other holes, Pont moved dirt to make the course more interesting in the playing, not for aesthetics. The rumpled fairways and bunker complexes are very well done at Turfvaert.
"Whatever in creation exists without my knowledge exists without my consent." - Judge Holden, Blood Meridian.

Dónal Ó Ceallaigh

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Re: The Confidential Guide to The International, NE
« Reply #10 on: July 31, 2013, 06:51:58 PM »
Come on Mark; do the right thing!!  :D Where's the International in your signature?

2013 played:  Northumberland, Brancaster, Woodhall Spa, Turnberry, Prestwick, Elie, Bruntsfield Links, Kington, Ridgewood CC, Austin GC, Barton Creek Crenshaw, NBWL, HCEG, Berkshire Red, West Hill, Swinkelsche, De Pan, Eindhoven, Noordwijkse, Royal Hague

David Davis

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Re: The Confidential Guide to The International, NE
« Reply #11 on: July 31, 2013, 07:08:02 PM »
For the record, also for you Mark. the reason we played The International was because I was trying to get us on the top courses in NL. Love it or hate it even with the mistakes they've made in shaping and the 500k euro stone expenditure its one of the top courses here and a great contrast to the classic courses and the links courses.

It was a tour of NL top courses I put together, not a Harry Colt tour, never once did I say that nor promise that. It just so happens that Harry Colt had a great impact on Dutch golf.

I also think hate is a pretty strong word to use in golf. As bad as any golf course may be, you are still golfing while others are doing far less fortunate things. Nothing to hate about that. I didn't even take you guys to play a Dutch Polder course. Now I regret it.


Without the darkness it's hard to appreciate the light.



« Last Edit: July 31, 2013, 07:09:43 PM by David Davis »
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Ulrich Mayring

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Re: The Confidential Guide to The International, NE
« Reply #12 on: July 31, 2013, 07:21:13 PM »
The course requires a lot of thought and most holes are very well designed. Harry Colt would have snuffed at the site, today's archies are less fortunate, they have to make the most of what they're given. Which, in this case, was not very much at all.

Ulrich
Golf Course Exposé (300+ courses reviewed), Golf CV (how I keep track of 'em)

John Mayhugh

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Re: The Confidential Guide to The International, NE
« Reply #13 on: July 31, 2013, 08:19:19 PM »
I appreciated David's efforts to show us the top Dutch golf courses.  The International wouldn't be on my list of courses I wanted to play again, but it was interesting to see the approach taken, and especially to compare that to another modern like De Swinkelsche.  The contrast was stark.

I thought there were a number of good holes there from a functional point of view and enjoyed playing them.  The aesthetic approach was not at all pleasing, though, and affected my overall impression of the course.  The shaping of mounds to isolate holes wasn't very well executed, and the trees added on top didn't help.

The most memorable for me (and not in a good way) was the 17th green and surrounds. Incredibly busy looking, with no sort of tie-in to the area around. 

Bill Brightly

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Re: The Confidential Guide to The International, NE
« Reply #14 on: July 31, 2013, 10:36:51 PM »
I'm not unhappy that we played The International. I think is was highly educational to learn that golfers in NL can be drawn to the same type of golf courses and non-golf amenities that are so prevalent in the US. Had we only played Colt and Colt-inspired  courses, I might have left with the impression that most golf in the Netherlands was played on that type of links-like course. After playing The International, I somehow felt guilty that the "American influence" was on full display, and that I was partly to blame!

There is not a chance in Hell that The International could avoid criticism from the treehouse. Especially from US gca.com members, because we have played "that course" dozens of times in the States.  But I believe strongly in TE Paul's big world theory. The existence of courses like the International make courses like Royal Hague and Kennemer all the more special and enjoyable.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2013, 10:39:59 PM by Bill Brightly »

Mark Pearce

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Re: The Confidential Guide to The International, NE
« Reply #15 on: August 01, 2013, 01:39:16 AM »
David,

My criticism of the International is NOT a criticism of the decision to take us there.  As others have said, it at least served to demonstrate that the golfing tastes of the majority are as different from the GCA norm in Holland as anywhere else.  I also appreciate that the lack of the concept of a 36 hole ticket elsewhere made it necessary.  Each of the other courses we played was at least excellent and the opportunity to compare the far cheaper to build Swinkelsche with the International was fascinating.  We don't criticise courses as often as we should on here, so I welcome Ward's starting this thread.

Next time I'm in Holland I'll seek out a Polder course.  As to the word hate, yes, it's a strong word.  Perhaps I shouldn't have used it but, if the International was the only course I could play tomorrow, I'd seriously consider going to work instead.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Ulrich Mayring

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Re: The Confidential Guide to The International, NE
« Reply #16 on: August 01, 2013, 04:18:27 AM »
Is architectural merit really the main or even the only source of fun in a round of golf?

What about nice company, a fun match, hitting some good shots, great weather, low cost and generally getting a bit of exercise in the open without overstraining yourself? The International ticked some of those boxes and I suppose any golf course could tick enough of those boxes for me that I would have a lot of fun playing golf.

Not wanting to deter anyone from coming to Germany, but the reality is that The International with all its shortcomings is still a better course than most of ours. For one, it is sand-capped and the luxury of playing on sand is very, very exclusive in most parts of the world. You British lot are spoiled :)

Ulrich
Golf Course Exposé (300+ courses reviewed), Golf CV (how I keep track of 'em)

David Davis

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Re: The Confidential Guide to The International, NE
« Reply #17 on: August 01, 2013, 04:25:42 AM »
there is certainly no doubt that the tone of the BUDA was Colt oriented, I mean Frank was also involved and he's as passionate a Colt fan and expert on Colt as anyone. His new courses clearly influenced strongly by Colt, his discussion on Tuesday night, about Colt.

I have no problems with you guys cutting down InterNational based on facts, I mean hell if anyone should be upset with them it should be me as I was screwed out of a several hundred euros by them.

For the record I love the comments and critiques especially when they are based by solid reasoning and examples. I too hope that I'll learn something here. Fact is for me, I have a special deal to play all the great courses in NL, NOT including the International. I do have friends, non-GCA'ers of course that are members and swear by the course thinking it's the greatest thing since sliced bread. I can play with one of them anytime I want to fork over the 120 euro accompanied guest fee. OR I can just go play, Royal Hague, Kennemer, De Pan, Eindhoven, Hilversum or a few others for 30 euro.

Now you know the other reason I don't bother.

Did I have fun there, yes absolutely, I had a great time with Bill, David and Andrew even though I played like shit, but give me a competition and I'll have fun on a pitch and putt and let the architecture not bother me until after the round.

David
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Ally Mcintosh

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Re: The Confidential Guide to The International, NE
« Reply #18 on: August 01, 2013, 04:34:24 AM »
I will be visiting The International in December...

Clearly not classic architecture but the green shaping looks interesting from a couple of photos above.

Agreed - containment mounding with trees on top will niggle a bit though.

Andrew Hastie

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Re: The Confidential Guide to The International, NE
« Reply #19 on: August 01, 2013, 04:36:07 AM »
Gentlemen,
Good to hear from you all on this post, and I find your comments all very interesting!
For those of you who visited Holland for the BUDA you were privy to the best we have to offer in golf, after the top 10 courses things go down hill very quickly! Most of the modern courses have been built with low budgets on flat polder landscape which is clay based and is a bog in the winter and rock hard in the Summer, in general a horrible golf experience.

What The International offers is something unique in Holland and that is a more interesting golf experience, at least to the Dutch retail golfer. Obviously the fact that it near Amsterdam makes it a convenient location all be it with many distractions.

What I don't like about the international is a mix of styles, it has a inland links feeling to it but then comes all the water with the stone walls around the tees and greens that gives it a sort of resort course feeling. The trees that have been planted also don't  fit the concept what ever that is meant to be! And who can forget the beautiful waterfall and paths that are to dangerous to walk on!

The strategy IMO is floored, as discussed the 3rd hole being the perfect example of all I hate in modern design!
The course is well constructed and the green complexes aren't bad but compared to where we played that afternoon.........
All in all The International is good for Dutch golf but the Swinklesche is even better!




Adam Lawrence

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Re: The Confidential Guide to The International, NE
« Reply #20 on: August 01, 2013, 04:42:03 AM »
They've got 500 members and the member's guest fee is €120? Marcel must be coining it in!

Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Andrew Hastie

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Re: The Confidential Guide to The International, NE
« Reply #21 on: August 01, 2013, 04:50:23 AM »
I don't know how true that is: 500 members! I heard last year they were struggling badly with selling memberships. And judging by the disorganization when we were there they couldn't handle 500 members either!

Mark Pearce

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Re: The Confidential Guide to The International, NE
« Reply #22 on: August 01, 2013, 05:04:01 AM »
Andrew,

That's what I was told by the chap who met us on arrival.  I don't guarantee that it's true.

I have tried to ignore that chaos around paying and the outrageous way David was ripped off when commenting on the course.  If they want to gain the reputation of a premium golfing venue then the way they treat visitors may be more important than the course.  Sadly whilst most of the staff were friendly enough the fiasco when it came to paying, the accusations thrown around (I was carrying a bag out to my car and was virtually accused of attempting to do a runner) and their unwillingness to be reasonable over numbers count heavily against them in this regard.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Andrew Hastie

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Re: The Confidential Guide to The International, NE
« Reply #23 on: August 01, 2013, 06:12:28 AM »
Get everybody to pay before they hit off and give everyone a receipt or a numbered bag tag.
It's not that hard is it! When you consider it's owned by Burggolf that owns many courses they should know how to organize things ???