Golf Magazine Top 100 Newcomers

[Mark Bourgeois]

Sean

I am with your op cit post more than your ibid. 

I'm not much for lists, they're a thin gruel of discussion. Now, if everyone on a panel did write ups like Ran here (or you, for that matter) that would be much more interesting. Probably.

Mark

[David Cronheim]

Reading this thread and looking at the photos in the initial web-link, has prompted me to wonder what if we built a 10,000 foot high wall around every golf course. No views at all. None.

How many allegedly 'great' and top ranked courses with tremendous views and scenery would still be at the top of the rankings? A ranking based purely on the quality of the golf course, nothing else.

Would Turnberry and Pebble, to name just two top ranked courses with tremendous views, still be highly equally ranked or would less visually attractive courses such as, no offence intended, somewhere like Seaton Carew, a well thought of test of links golf near Hartlepool/Middlesborough in NE England, but from which you can see tall industrial industrial chimneys, chemical plants, dock cranes etc all so high that not even giant redwoods could block them out, suddenly turn into golfing swans overnight.

This is not by the way, intended as a criticism of the quality of golf available at Turnberry or Pebble or Seaton Carew and the like, for there must be other fine tests of golf elsewhere on the globe that also have visually unattractive backdrops, but I can't help feel that views and scenery seem to count for sooo much in course rankings.

Just a thought.

All the best

I tend to disagree that what makes a course special is entirely within the confines of the course. I would agree with you insofar as many panelists seem to dramatically overrate courses with great views. I remember a GD seminar where the speaker noted that it seemed as if no course without a mountain range or ocean view ever seemed to score high in GD's version of that category. That said, wind off the ocean certainly plays a factor in many of the great links layouts. I also find the lack of a backdrop to pose certain other unique challenges. Judging distance to a skyline green or on a links course adds a degree of difficulty and uniqueness. Many of the courses that seem to rank highly each year have great views, but I wouldn't penalize them for it.

It's undeniable that a good piece of ground can help create a good golf course. Would Shoreacres, Pebble, Pine Valley, etc. be nearly what they are if the holes were laid across a flat canvas? I think not. I think it's simply important not to be blinded by purely beautiful views, but a great view adds to the intrinsic enjoyment of the course and can also pose unique challenges.

[Simon Holt]

Looks like those dropping from the list were:

Nanea
Chambers Bay
North Berwick
Valley Club
Highland Links

Greg,

With the amount of raters I've dragged (not too many were reluctant, I might add) to North Berwick over the past 2 years it was only going one way 

68th.

Simon

[Greg Tallman]

Looks like those dropping from the list were:

Nanea
Chambers Bay
North Berwick
Valley Club
Highland Links

Winged Foot East maybe?

[Greg Tallman]

Looks like those dropping from the list were:

Nanea
Chambers Bay
North Berwick
Valley Club
Highland Links

Greg,

With the amount of raters I've dragged (not too many were reluctant, I might add) to North Berwick over the past 2 years it was only going one way 

68th.

Simon

Saw that and just took next guess above... assumed that those falling were from the bottom 25 and when NB was not 76-100 I made what seemed a logical assumption. Unless WF Eastjumped into the top 50 it is the one.

Some real movement from previous list...

Old Sandwich 67 to 90
Berwick 89 to 68
WF East 75 to NR

[Mac Plumart]

Seems like lots of Raynor/MacDonald courses on these lists. 

Is it too much?

[David Cronheim]

Seems like lots of Raynor/MacDonald courses on these lists. 

Is it too much?

Also a distinct tilt towards Coore and Crenshaw courses.

[Bill Crane]

BTT ( back to topic)  I am really curious how much the gang in the Tree here perceive the rankings to be influenced by our community and members?
  
The listing that really stands out to me is Eastward Ho - a course championed by GCA.  I’ve been lucky to play this course many times, just not in the past three years, and while I love it, I suspect some people are uncomfortable with the hilliness and small greens.  The views of Pleasant Bay are staggering and are probably a compensating factor.  While not remote, Chatham – Cape Cod is not really on the way anywhere except Wellfleet, Highland Links in Truro and P-town, not to mention it is not an easy course to get on, especially in the summer.
  
To me this is a course that may have been boosted in the rankings because of the favorable opinions here on GCA, albeit rightly so.

So, how much influence do we have?  How many raters are in the community and do the heads of the rating agencies, whoops .…publications lurk here often?    

I think I saw evidence of this at the recent Paramount event where employee hosts were posted on many of the holes and one asked McKinnon and I who we rate for.

My apologies if this sub-topic has been covered previously on a post I have not read.

Wm Flynnfan

[David Cronheim]

Bill,

I agree with you that there are many raters who frequent this message board. Having attention brought to bear on a lesser known course certainly can't hurt that course's ability to get raters in. Once there, I think GCA's pull is minimal. It might predispose someone to like or dislike a certain track, but I'd like think I'd be objective enough not to really let that influence me. I've been disappointed plenty ot times by big name courses and blown away by some unheralded ones. But I do think GCA helps get raters to focus on places they might have overlooked and some connections made here doubtless help raters get on.

DBC

[Sean_A]

Out of curiosity, what do folks think are (personally) the lock top 100 from GB&I and which are courses with a good shout?

Ciao

[Jud_T]

For starters, I'd play 10 out of 10 rounds at Prestwick over the European Club...

[Joel_Stewart]

Ballyneal seems very low. Courses like Woodhall, Olympic, Maidstone all ahead of it - all good courses but not in Ballyneal's league. I'd be surprised if Oitavos dunes was.

Am I overestimating Ballyneal here or do others agree it's an anomaly?

I think you're overestimating Ballyneal.  You're in pretty good company and it's not even the best course in the Sand Hill region.

Olympic continues it's dive since every conceivable poor decision was made to prepare the course for the 2012 US Open.  Now the pros are long gone they are left with a mess and the rankings show.

2009   41st
2011   43rd
2013   57th

[Sean_A]

Okay, to get things going - locks for me are

Ballybunion Old
Lahinch
Prestwick
Royal St Georges
Rye
Sunny Old
TOC


Serious Contenders

Cruden Bay
Formby
N Berwick
Royal Aberdeen
Royal Cinque Ports
Royal Co Down
St Enodoc
St Georges Hill
The Island
Trump International

On the Table

Carnoustie
Co Sligo
Muirfield
Portmarnock
Portstewart
Royal Birkdale
Royal Dornoch
Royal Liverpool
Royal Portrush
Royal Troon
Royal Worlington
Sunny New
Swinley Forest
Turnberry
Woking

Ciao

[Greg Tallman]

BTT ( back to topic)  I am really curious how much the gang in the Tree here perceive the rankings to be influenced by our community and members?
  
The listing that really stands out to me is Eastward Ho - a course championed by GCA.  I’ve been lucky to play this course many times, just not in the past three years, and while I love it, I suspect some people are uncomfortable with the hilliness and small greens.  The views of Pleasant Bay are staggering and are probably a compensating factor.  While not remote, Chatham – Cape Cod is not really on the way anywhere except Wellfleet, Highland Links in Truro and P-town, not to mention it is not an easy course to get on, especially in the summer.
  
To me this is a course that may have been boosted in the rankings because of the favorable opinions here on GCA, albeit rightly so.

So, how much influence do we have?  How many raters are in the community and do the heads of the rating agencies, whoops .…publications lurk here often?    

I think I saw evidence of this at the recent Paramount event where employee hosts were posted on many of the holes and one asked McKinnon and I who we rate for.

My apologies if this sub-topic has been covered previously on a post I have not read.

Wm Flynnfan

Bill, I belive there are about 10-12 GOLF panelists that aprticipate here.

Of the others I have met I would say half think GCAers are a bit touched and the other half are line with most thinking put forth on this site.

[Mark Chaplin]

Interestingly I cannot find a GB&I top 100 list where Rye is above Deal!

[Sean_A]

Okay, to get things going - locks for me are

Ballybunion Old
Lahinch
Prestwick
Royal St Georges
Rye
Sunny Old
TOC


Serious Contenders

Cruden Bay
Formby
N Berwick
Royal Aberdeen
Royal Cinque Ports
Royal Co Down
St Enodoc
St Georges Hill
The Island
Trump International

On the Table

Carnoustie
Co Sligo
Muirfield
Portmarnock
Portstewart
Royal Birkdale
Royal Dornoch
Royal Liverpool
Royal Portrush
Royal Troon
Royal Worlington
Sunny New
Swinley Forest
Turnberry
Woking

Ciao

Sean: you forgot Enniscrone. And I question your inclusion of Turnberry - knowing you

PS - I don't need to see Trump to decree its serious contender status as bullshit.

Brian, no I didn't forget Enniscrone.  I love the course,  but it falls just a bit shy of on the table. 

Give us your locks etc.

Ciao 

[Mark Pearce]

Sean,

You have completely lost the plot.

Muirfield only "on the table"?  Perverse.  It's a lock in my book and I can't see how even you or Ran couldn't recognise it as a serious contender at least.  Your inclusion of Rye as a lock is, at best, odd.  It's a decent track but a clear class behind Muirfield and Dornoch.  I'm a fan of Deal but putting it ahead of Dornoch?  Inexplicable.  Crudeness Bay ahead of Muirfield, Dornoch, Hoylake and Swinley?  What is this, a novelty golf competition?  I loved Crudeness Bay but it has more bad holes than any world top 100 course can carry.  I'm probably going to get drummed out of town for this but the same can be said of North Berwick.  Great place, great fun, great golf but World Top 100 ahead of Carnoustie, Muirfield, Dornoch and Hoylake?  Never.

[Simon Holt]

Hi Mark,

I wouldn't put Hoylake or Carnoustie ahead of North Berwick but I agree with Muirfield and Dornoch.  Out of interest, why would you put Carnoustie and Hoylake ahead of NB and what would you class as bad holes at North Berwick? 

Please read my tone as curious, not defensive, as I'm simply interested to see how your account of the holes stacks up against mine....its not a perfect golf course by any means.

As far as some of Sean's suggestions, well, interesting is the word.  I think RCD, Muirfield and Portrush leave Prestwick in their wake.  North Berwick and Cruden Bay are superior to Prestwick for my money too.  But each to their own, "Its ALL good" as one of my good friends always tells me.

I do agree with Carnoustie, Hoylake and Troon being in Sean's 3rd tier.  That's no bad thing; it's a tough crowd.

[Jud_T]

 

[Ulrich Mayring]

I have played Deal and Rye this week and there were discernable differences.

1. Rye is a lot greener. There is a huge difference in color between fairways (green) and surrounding areas (brown). In Deal everything is a shade of brown and blends together.

2. While Deal does have a few extremely quirky spots, Rye is the quirkier course all around.

3. The prevailing wind at Rye is a crosswind, whereas in Deal one plays more into or with the wind.

4. The variety of hole configurations is slightly better at Deal. Rye has only one par 5 (the first) plus a double dogleg par 4, which could be called a three shotter.

5. Rye is not especially beautiful, but Deal is... well, Deal

Overall I think Deal is the better course. But not by much.

Ulrich

Ulrich

[Mark Bourgeois]

Okay, to get things going - locks for me are

Ballybunion Old
Lahinch
Prestwick
Royal St Georges
Rye
Sunny Old
TOC

Sean you magnificent bastard! This is such an interesting list -- are you sure it's 'greatest' rather than 'favo(u)rite'? For many 'normal' people would see this and call it favourite.

To paraphrase Kerry Packer, there's a little bit of the ranker in all of us, gentlemen. And so, to show Steve L I am not a total crackpot, or I should say I am a wanker 23.50 hrs daily and a ranker 00.10, here go my locks:

Ganton -- always always Ganton. The cheese stands alone.
WH Old -- the more I consider my rounds on this course the more I think it underappreciated (don't know where it's ranked so not commenting on whether it should be ranked, is underranked, etc).
St G Hill -- although I hate that like Sunny Old it has a life preserver hole. Embarrassing.
Woking -- I refuse to allow my love of this course get in the way of its clear-eyed excellence.
Rye -- but for the 11th one of the world's truly tippy top courses, not just links.

[Mark Bourgeois]

1. Rye is a lot greener. There is a huge difference in color between fairways (green) and surrounding areas (brown). In Deal everything is a shade of brown and blends together.

 

Once upon a time Herr Mayring one would have been cryit doon for tasting Rye out of season.

[Sean_A]

Okay, to get things going - locks so far

Ballybunion Old
Ganton
Lahinch
Muirfield
Prestwick
Royal Cinque Ports
Royal Co Down
Royal Dornoch
Royal Portrush
Royal St Georges
Rye
St Georges Hill
Sunny Old
TOC
Walton Heath Old
Woking


Serious Contenders

Cruden Bay
Formby
N Berwick
Prestwick
Royal Aberdeen
Royal Cinque Ports
Royal Co Down
Royal Liverpool
St Enodoc
St Georges Hill
Swinley Forest
The Island
Trump International

On the Table

Carnoustie
Co Sligo
Enniscrone
Muirfield
N Berwick
Portmarnock
Portstewart
Royal Birkdale
Royal Dornoch
Royal Liverpool
Royal Portrush
Royal Troon
Royal Worlington
Sunny New
Swinley Forest
Turnberry
Woking

Okay with the two Mark's, Simon and Ulrich chiming in - see above.  I can't vouch for Ganton or WHO, but many people tout them highly. Royal Dornoch, why not, everybody seems to think it belongs.  Same for Co Down.  Many believe Portrush to be the equal of Co Down - so why not? I am not at all sure about Woking, but that is the reason the there are courses on the table, same for St Georges Hill.  

There has been a cry to kick Trump out, but the man hasn't laid eyes on the place so the cries shall go unheard.  Though we shall add Enniscrone to the table for the man man from Ireland.

Any other comments?

Ciao

[Bart Bradley]

Sean:

I firmly believe that Prestwick should be back IN.

Can't believe that you don't even list Woodhall Spa Hotchkins as "on the table" ...It is likely IN.

Turnberry is IN.

Of your current IN courses, haven't played Woking or St. Georges Hill...are they both locks? 

Despite Mark B's passion for Ganton, it would be OUT for me but a contender. 

I would include Swinley and The Island as IN but would understand those who wouldn't.

Bart

[Mark Bourgeois]

Bart, well one could say use of the qualifier "likely" moves Woodhall Spa by definition from "lock" to one of the other categories. I have my doubts about Turnberry and TOC (haven't played enough times to form an opinion) to name two, thus my exclusion.

I'm the one that suggested Woking and SGH. I have no idea what others think but in my mind they are dead solid locks. My first round at Woking was a revelatory thrill; subsequent rounds only got better. There is no need at Woking for the soft bigotry of classic-course expectations, that track has the most interesting green complexes and fun to putt greens in the Stockbroker Belt and well beyond.

Way back in the recesses of my mind lurks a simple doubt regarding SGH. It comes down to a single manmade object approximately two feet in diameter and round, found on the right side of the 14th hole. But what a course, oh my!