News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Mark Bourgeois

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Magazine Top 100 Newcomers
« Reply #100 on: August 01, 2013, 10:02:44 AM »
I think I just lost interest.

I was expecting a tight band of 5-8 consensus courses and instead we get a camel. I guess I just don't care after the first dozen or two on these various lists. There's something wrong with every course in the world, it's just a question of how much wrong represents the point of no concern, after which apathy sets in.
Charlotte. Daniel. Olivia. Josephine. Ana. Dylan. Madeleine. Catherine. Chase. Jesse. James. Grace. Emilie. Jack. Noah. Caroline. Jessica. Benjamin. Avielle. Allison.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Magazine Top 100 Newcomers
« Reply #101 on: August 01, 2013, 10:10:28 AM »
I think I just lost interest.

I was expecting a tight band of 5-8 consensus courses and instead we get a camel. I guess I just don't care after the first dozen or two on these various lists. There's something wrong with every course in the world, it's just a question of how much wrong represents the point of no concern, after which apathy sets in.

My band was quite tight, but I had zero consensus.  Not surprising really when what I seek is only loosely related to greatness.  Like you, I really enjoy going back to courses once I am intrigued.  Maybe thats why I have never made it Ganton. 

I wouldn't say there is much wrong with the courses above - if we accept there is no such thing as a Bo Derek.  As Doak says, what really matters is what floats your boat.  You seem to be on a vigilant journey in search of the perfect list of courses.  Why?

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Magazine Top 100 Newcomers
« Reply #102 on: August 01, 2013, 10:15:03 AM »
I think I just lost interest.

I was expecting a tight band of 5-8 consensus courses and instead we get a camel. I guess I just don't care after the first dozen or two on these various lists. There's something wrong with every course in the world, it's just a question of how much wrong represents the point of no concern, after which apathy sets in.

Mark...in all seriousness, there can only be a tight band of courses if people's utility regarding each aspect of a golf course (or golf courses) are similar.  

Of course, no one thinks of it this way...but it is true, if we try to explain all of this using numbers and stats.  Simon Holt, and many others, feel that North Berwick is Top 100, others don't.  In fact, Simon says he doesn't respect the opinions of people who don't see it the same way.  I think that is a good idea on his part.  

Why?  Because their utility functions regarding golf course architecture and not the same of Simon's and, therefore, it is unlikely they will have the same tastes regarding golf courses.  Therefore, neither side will, most likely, agree on what is a good/great/fun golf course.  In fact, disagreements on this fundamental of a level can lead to fairly nasty encounters unless someone has the emotional capacity to understand that these kinds of fundamentals disagreements occur all the time in life.  Think politics, lifestlye, spending habits, places to go on vacation, choice of religion, etc.  I believe these are all types of fundamental differences that, many times, people can not bring themselves to understand contradictory opinions because...well...they are fundamental differences.

Just sayin'.
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Magazine Top 100 Newcomers
« Reply #103 on: August 01, 2013, 10:21:53 AM »
Furthermore, the idea of the consensus list is to blend in all the utility functions into one mass function whereby the "average" golfer is found (or in the case of raters the "average" connoisseur).

Outliers in this type of list are minimized and courses that illicit less extreme reactions seem to have good placement.  These lists, lots of time, produce a selection of courses least likely to offend the average golfer, but, by definition, hidden gems and stunningly great finds have a hard time making the list (at least quickly).

However, lists developed by single individuals will develop a selection of courses that could be perfectly suited for any one golfer but could also be a disaster for others and their tastes.

Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Tony_Muldoon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Magazine Top 100 Newcomers
« Reply #104 on: August 01, 2013, 10:31:10 AM »
Mark what did you expect?


It’s subjective and what one person likes…etc.


Subjectivity always think of Harry Cohn who ruled Columbia Pictures for 30 years.  He had a fine track record, amongst the dross was “It happened one night” and “Born Yesterday” in which Broderick Crawford parodied him.

…and the relevant story would be.

“Cohn started the conversation with: "Last night I saw the lousiest picture I've seen in years." After mentioning the title, one producer reported that he had seen it with an audience and they had loved it. He suggested that maybe Cohn would have had a different reaction if he had seen it with an audience. Cohn replied, "That doesn't make any difference. When I'm alone in a projection room, I have a foolproof device for judging whether a picture is good or bad. If my fanny squirms, it's bad. If my fanny doesn't squirm, it's good. It's as simple as that." There was a momentary silence, which was broken by Mankiewicz. "Imagine," he said to the other members of the table. "The whole world wired to Harry Cohn's ass!"”
Let's make GCA grate again!

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Magazine Top 100 Newcomers
« Reply #105 on: August 01, 2013, 10:32:57 AM »
« Last Edit: August 01, 2013, 11:17:42 AM by Jud T »
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Magazine Top 100 Newcomers
« Reply #106 on: August 01, 2013, 11:04:24 AM »
Oliver has 32 GB&I courses listed as top 100 world!

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Magazine Top 100 Newcomers
« Reply #107 on: August 01, 2013, 11:35:31 AM »
I was about to decry Oliver's list (Swinley above Muirfield is perverse, frankly but perhaps explicable on a "fun" basis, that explanation falls away when you see Carnoustie above Muirfield) but then forgave him everything when I saw Silloth in at 100!  No-one, not even me was arguing here that Silloth should even be at the table (though I prefer it to a number of courses that have been being discussed).

However, a further review revealed that he had omitted Ganton completely but included Woodhall Spa.  Taking a leaf out of Simon's book I cannot respect the opinion of anyone who thinks Woodhall Spa is a better course (in any respect) than Ganton.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2013, 11:37:58 AM by Mark Pearce »
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Tony_Muldoon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Magazine Top 100 Newcomers
« Reply #108 on: August 01, 2013, 11:56:29 AM »

However, a further review revealed that he had omitted Ganton completely but included Woodhall Spa.  Taking a leaf out of Simon's book I cannot respect the opinion of anyone who thinks Woodhall Spa is a better course (in any respect) than Ganton.

Your Christmas card list is getting smaller and smaller.  Need to remove Ran and practically all the magazine rater's you know. 

 I did the same myself after seeing Ganton.
Let's make GCA grate again!

Michael Wharton-Palmer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Magazine Top 100 Newcomers
« Reply #109 on: August 01, 2013, 12:01:03 PM »
Mark..You mean you dont respect me anymore..I am devastated.
My opinion is just that, but any top 20 list of the UK would have to include both Royal Birkdale and Woodhall Spa.

I love golf courses that demand driving accuracy and precise placements of shots, both of these coursesre shotmaking paradise.
Ultimately very fair and rewarding for good shots and highly penal for poor.
That is one of my assesments for a good golf course.
The bunkering on both is marvelous and whlist I would concede that Woodhalll could do with some tree clearing I still LOVE the place, the town everything about it.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2013, 12:05:31 PM by Michael Wharton-Palmer »

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Magazine Top 100 Newcomers
« Reply #110 on: August 01, 2013, 12:13:50 PM »
I wonder how many more pages this thread will need to go before everyone realizes that these rankings are completely a matter of opinion.

Bit like the Doak Scale eh Tom ;)

The Doak Scale is just one man's opinion.  That's what gives it some weight.  These rankings are consensus opinions, which quickly fall apart when you realize that there is not really that much consensus that everyone can agree on.

I can understand that a pole of one person is a purer reflection of an opinion than the consensus of the many but that's some statement Tom ???

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Magazine Top 100 Newcomers
« Reply #111 on: August 01, 2013, 12:17:15 PM »
Michael,

It's OK, Simon doesn't respect my opinion, so I'm equally devastated!

I agree that there are similarities between Woodhall and Ganton.  Tough, championship tests, requiring accurate driving and sharp iron play.  Both are heavily (and expertly) bunkered with bunkers that are a real hazard.  However, in my book:

Ganton has more movement in the land, natural contours play a big part in negotiating your way round whilst Woodhall is, basically, flat, Woodhall relies entirley on its bunkering for its challenge, Ganton has more strings to its bow,
Ganton has a far superior set of greens, Woodhalls are, again,mostly flat,
Ganton has two or three excellent short par 4s, at least one of them is world class (14), Woodhall has none,
Ganton is on sandy soil and drains superbly, Woodhall has a tendency to retain moisture,

Off the course (and this should not count in the consideration of the merits of the courses) Ganton remains a wonderfully welcoming place, my impression is that Woodhall has become a commercial operation and lost its sense of club.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Michael Wharton-Palmer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Magazine Top 100 Newcomers
« Reply #112 on: August 01, 2013, 12:34:09 PM »
Perhaps too many short par fours on that back nine, but again knock it off line and see how"short" those holes are.
18 is a great finishing hole and the par threes superb, but I will concede to the number of short fours.

John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Magazine Top 100 Newcomers
« Reply #113 on: August 01, 2013, 12:39:08 PM »
Add me to the list of folks who love North Berwick.  I played it once.  I am not qualified to compare it to other British courses, since I have only played a few.  I loved everything about it, and found the round of golf to have a unique quality.  I've never played a round where the quality of my shots matched the results so precisely.  I'd hit a drive that looked pretty good, but I knew I didn't quite hit it right.  I would arrive at the ball and the next shot would be more difficult than it first appeared.  This happened all day long, until the 18th hole, a 270 yarder back into town.  There was a right to left crosswind, so I decided to play the aggressive shot, starting the ball out over the parking lot, and letting it drift back into play.  I pulled it off perfectly, lots of fun, but when I arrived at the ball, I had short-sided myself and three putted for par.

I can hardly imagine a better course to play on a daily basis.  

Jim Colton

Re: Golf Magazine Top 100 Newcomers
« Reply #114 on: August 01, 2013, 02:46:48 PM »
What is story with Nine Bridges? It keeps climbing the rankings (49 to 45 world). I know it just hosted that World Club Championship tournament, so perhaps that means we'll see it on tv soon?

Greg Tallman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Magazine Top 100 Newcomers
« Reply #115 on: August 01, 2013, 06:37:10 PM »
What is story with Nine Bridges? It keeps climbing the rankings (49 to 45 world). I know it just hosted that World Club Championship tournament, so perhaps that means we'll see it on tv soon?

The same event has been televised from Nine Bridges previously. If I could learn to upload a DVD to youtube I would put up the 2011 matches from there.

Mark Bourgeois

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Magazine Top 100 Newcomers
« Reply #116 on: August 01, 2013, 08:36:09 PM »
Mac,

Very interesting comments. Reminds me of the old statistics joke  :P about the guy with his head in the oven and his feet in the freezer. On average the temperature's perfect.

But the main thought your comments spark for me is the declining relevance of consensus in an age of personalization and fragmentation. If you think for example about traditionally how books were selected by readers for purchase -- which like golf (playing a round of golf) is an experience good -- essentially it boiled down to one of three ways (leaving out the ol' "judge a book by its cover"):

1) Bestseller lists -- essentially consensus
2) Review by someone the reader trusted (critics as well as friends, relatives)
3) Reputation of or past experience reading the author (author's "brand")

These days that's antediluvian. Bestseller lists probably count for much less than they used to as far as a selection tool, and why? Because of your rationale. These lists generally are sort of a lowest-common denominator consensus and pretty much always have been.

But in the past people didn't have the ability to supercharge Source #2 in the list above. Today thanks to technologies like collaborative filtering they do. Books, movies, all sorts of experience goods rely less on consensus and more on presenting the consumer with highly rated items as rated by those with similar preferences.

That to me is what makes the three distinct but ultimately similar approaches taken by Ran Morrissett, Tom Doak, and Darius Oliver worthwhile. Each provide a written exposition on courses, so that in the cases of Doak and Oliver one can read the detail underpinning their scores. Ran's approach is different in that it lacks quantitative assessment but similar in its provision of a qualitative assessment. Essentially his approach is binary: if he likes it he writes it up. He uses omissions in a meaningful way.

Why is this approach superior? Because we can determine their preferences from their writing and thereby filter according to our preferences. Find someone who shares your preferences -- even better find a group who shares your preferences -- then leverage their experiences. It's a rudimentary way to "collaboratively filter."

Magazine lists fail on these counts. They are yesteryear's bestseller lists, a product of differing utilities mashed together into consensus. I wonder if something else will come along, and what that might be?

Interesting that Golf Digest has been proliferating lists relating to tough, fun, etc. Ham-handed and designed solely to sell magazines -- of course! -- this patronizing, "ghettoizing" may well be a harbinger. Certainly would be cool to create a "course chooser" and "course ranker" using the technologies available today.

Mark

PS Jim Colton: dagger!
Charlotte. Daniel. Olivia. Josephine. Ana. Dylan. Madeleine. Catherine. Chase. Jesse. James. Grace. Emilie. Jack. Noah. Caroline. Jessica. Benjamin. Avielle. Allison.

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Magazine Top 100 Newcomers
« Reply #117 on: August 01, 2013, 09:13:51 PM »
Mark...bingo!

A lot of these consensus lists are like the bestsellers lists.  And I think they have their place...especially for golfers who are  not totally plugged in and doing a lot of their own discovery, personal discovery on what they like and course discovery on what's available to play.  And, yes, if you can find a course critic whose taste lines up with yours, you can share notes.

But what I find the most interesting and the most valid and true, if you will, are the courses that are on all the lists regardless if they are consensus lists or individual lists and regardless of the criteria (explicit or implicit)  used to rate/rank/judge the courses.  To me, those are the cream of the crop...they have to be.

But in the end, your own personal list of favorites is all that really matters.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2013, 09:15:44 PM by Mac Plumart »
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Mark Bourgeois

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Magazine Top 100 Newcomers
« Reply #118 on: August 01, 2013, 09:20:54 PM »
Mac,

The list is just the first part. The second part is more important: the explanation. When we go to Darius Oliver's website we see a list -- then we can read a nice writeup on each course. It's the writeups that are worthwhile, not the list.
Charlotte. Daniel. Olivia. Josephine. Ana. Dylan. Madeleine. Catherine. Chase. Jesse. James. Grace. Emilie. Jack. Noah. Caroline. Jessica. Benjamin. Avielle. Allison.

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Magazine Top 100 Newcomers
« Reply #119 on: August 01, 2013, 09:38:48 PM »
YES!

But here is the kicker, IMO, regarding these gems.  You need more than one write up, preferably multiple ones from people with different tastes and takes.  Having these types of write-ups from people with different takes should illuminate the scope of the greatness of these courses.

For example, you can take the world-renowned critics (Oliver, Morrissett, and, frankly, Doak) and you can hear what they say.  Then take the observations of good/great players.  Then Supers and course builders and maintainers.  And 'retail golfers', like Keiser uses.  This would illuminate the different aspects that make these courses great through different sets of eyes and touches on different, but important, points.

Some problems with this type of thing occur when things are held back, political answers are given, or difference of opinion arise.  But it would be cool, if we could get a few serious GCAers out to play a specific set of courses and submit, in essence, a book report on what they saw.  It would be really cool,if we could do this on lightening rod/controversial courses and/or brand new courses.

Anyway, perhaps I've totally sidetracked this thread.  Sorry.
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Mark Bourgeois

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Magazine Top 100 Newcomers
« Reply #120 on: August 01, 2013, 09:45:11 PM »
As long as nobody tried to blend, average or otherwise smooth those varied opinions, right? That's how we end up with the problem you wrote in your earlier post.

Way back in the early days of this stuff you could go on Showtime's website and rate movies. The more movies you rated the better the suggestion engine. It's really hard to get this right. You have to strike the right balance. Underfit the data and the recs are too general. Overfit the data and you can get big mistakes. But it's a pretty established field. These days places like Amazon and Google crush this.
Charlotte. Daniel. Olivia. Josephine. Ana. Dylan. Madeleine. Catherine. Chase. Jesse. James. Grace. Emilie. Jack. Noah. Caroline. Jessica. Benjamin. Avielle. Allison.

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Magazine Top 100 Newcomers
« Reply #121 on: August 01, 2013, 09:52:00 PM »
Yes, but no.

Yes, no filtering. Honest OBSERVATIONS.

And, no. No rating or ranking. Just write ups discussing the course and what they saw and experienced.

At least that is what I was thinking would be worthwhile to read.
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Ulrich Mayring

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Magazine Top 100 Newcomers
« Reply #122 on: August 04, 2013, 11:22:44 AM »
To back up my earlier claim that Rye was surprisingly green in this heat wave, here are a couple of pictures from last Wednesday:

Hole 1


Hole 9


Hole 18


Compare to these pictures of Chart Hills, an American-style Steve Smyers / Nick Faldo Design nearby. They were taken on the next day.

Hole 1


Hole 12


Hole 15


It appears that Chart Hills waters the fairways a lot less than tees and greens, whereas Rye is more uniform in its application of water. To me Rye was still playing plenty firm and fast, definitely firmer than Chart Hills, which was doing a good job though.

Ulrich
« Last Edit: August 04, 2013, 11:24:20 AM by Ulrich Mayring »
Golf Course Exposé (300+ courses reviewed), Golf CV (how I keep track of 'em)

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Golf Magazine Top 100 Newcomers
« Reply #123 on: August 04, 2013, 12:13:22 PM »
Ulrich:

Interesting photos.  You do not see many courses in America watering the fairways as little as Chart Hills.

As for Rye, greener than I expected, but it's never easy to make judgments based on a single visit.  Links courses tend to water heavily but infrequently, to promote deep roots.  If you see a course a couple of days after they've dumped water on it, it will look pretty green, but not for long.

Ulrich Mayring

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Magazine Top 100 Newcomers
« Reply #124 on: August 04, 2013, 12:37:18 PM »
It did the rain the day before I played Rye. But other than that it was hot and dry. The rough clearly shows that.

Ulrich
« Last Edit: August 04, 2013, 12:42:16 PM by Ulrich Mayring »
Golf Course Exposé (300+ courses reviewed), Golf CV (how I keep track of 'em)