Golf Magazine Top 100 Newcomers

[Jim Colton]

http://www.golf.com/photos/golf-magazine-top-100-golf-courses-2013-newcomers/cabot-links?fb_action_ids=10153055534225291&fb_action_types=og.likes#343693

[Greg Tallman]

Congrats to Ben, Ran et al.

Not the end all be all but as a public facility this is a nice feather.

[Joel_Stewart]

No real surprises.  I haven't heard much about Rye?   Royal Melbourne East must be excellent with the new grass.

On the US side, CC of Fairfield and Forest Dunes are rarely discussed.  Aronomink should have never left the list.

[Tom_Doak]

Funny that they led with the two Streamsong courses (top courses in the U.S.) ahead of the newcomers to the World list.  I wonder if they were trying to soft-play Trump International being their highest-rated new course?

[full disclosure:  I saw it too late to vote on it this time.  Next time my vote will surely offset Ran's.]

Rye is one of my favorite places ever ... and the shortest course in the top 100, but you would expect that since par is 67 or 68.

Surprised that Royal Melbourne (East) came into the list, but I'm sure the club will be happy to see it.

[Mark Steffey]

Funny that they led with the two Streamsong courses (top courses in the U.S.) ahead of the newcomers to the World list.  I wonder if they were trying to soft-play Trump International being their highest-rated new course?

they did US first (in order of finish on list) then World (also in order of finish).   we are all US-centric!! 

getting out on Eastward Ho! tomorrow for the first time.  weather is supposed to be sweet.  can't wait!

[Jim Colton]

I guess this means that they are less than 52 US courses in the Top 100 world list. Does anyone recall the split last time?

[Niall Hay]

Nice to see Eastward Ho! on that list. Keith Foster must have done an incredible job with that course. It's incredible. To keep it up to date while blending it well enough to feel genuinely old and authentic.  Great job Keith!

[Steve Lapper]

Funny that they led with the two Streamsong courses (top courses in the U.S.) ahead of the newcomers to the World list.  I wonder if they were trying to soft-play Trump International being their highest-rated new course?

[full disclosure:  I saw it too late to vote on it this time.  Next time my vote will surely offset Ran's.]

Rye is one of my favorite places ever ... and the shortest course in the top 100, but you would expect that since par is 67 or 68.

Surprised that Royal Melbourne (East) came into the list, but I'm sure the club will be happy to see it.

Tom,

I suggest you ask Eamon Lynch why they led, online, with Streamsong? It was, and is, his call.

[ full disclosure: I suppose my vote will become the tiebreaker btw you and Ran!  ]

[Greg Tallman]

I guess this means that they are less than 52 US courses in the Top 100 world list. Does anyone recall the split last time?

50-50 Jim, Congressional Blue was US 51 and 1/100th of point from making the world list. Not that I was interested in 100ths of points last time around. 

[Mark Bourgeois]

Who do we see about getting Rye off this list?  Or will we be okay just waiting a couple of years, presumably after which the rankers will have moved on to the next flavor?

[Tom_Doak]

Who do we see about getting Rye off this list?  Or will we be okay just waiting a couple of years, presumably after which the rankers will have moved on to the next flavor?

Mark:

Not positive but I'm pretty sure Rye was on the list once before, a few years ago, only to fall off the next time.

Back then, they didn't seem to care one way or the other.  I wonder if that has changed?

[Mark Bourgeois]

Tom,

There's always the question of not confusing cause and effect. I wish they wouldn't have added irrigation. I'm sure they didn't do it to make the list but I can see the impact of that decision being making the list. Hopefully it doesn't go any further than that. It sure was nice to have at least one legitimately top tier course that could bridge us in this way to the past.

[Sean_A]

Tom,

There's always the question of not confusing cause and effect. I wish they wouldn't have added irrigation. I'm sure they didn't do it to make the list but I can see the impact of that decision being making the list. Hopefully it doesn't go any further than that. It sure was nice to have at least one legitimately top tier course that could bridge us in this way to the past.

Seems too early to have a cause/effect with the new watering system.  Although, this year of all years the difference in conditioning should be very marked. 

It seems to me there should always be a sacred four which are automatic for the world top 100.  One is, but the other three should be as well. 

Rye
North Berwick
TOC
St Enodoc

I spose since there is no mention of Deal it didn't make the list.  Hopefully it was seriously considered.   

I know it wasn't on the table, but Formby too should be a serious contender.

Ciao

[Sean_A]

Sean, I don't think I've ever seen St Enodoc on a World 100 list. Why do you think that is?

Brian

Somehow the magic of St Enodoc must not translate as well as North Berwick's does.  While different in their routing make-up, the two courses are quite similar in their boldness.  

-Both have iconic holes, but of course one of NB's is a template used the world round.  One can't say that for any of SE's holes.  
-Being in Scotland helps out NB.
-St Enodoc has the stretch of holes behind the church which are not valued much even though 12 & 14 are excellent.
-Folks can't abide by some of SE's charm, such as #s 3 & 10. Perhaps these are just too difficult?

SE's eccentricity seems to translate as charming while NB's seems to translate as charming and great.  

I am amazed that Trump I made 50 in the world.  It shows that there is no such thing as bad publicity.  In its current state, Trump shouldn't really make top 25 GB&I.  

Ciao  

[Ben Cowan-Dewar]

Rye is one of my favorite places ever ... and the shortest course in the top 100, but you would expect that since par is 67 or 68.

Based on your photos, Rye was the course that Rod most wanted to see on our tour of 30+ links courses. It was also the bunkering that influenced Cabot's more than any other.

It was on the list twice in 95 and 97 (I think), but it is great to see it back on.

[Craig Disher]

Who do we see about getting Rye off this list?  Or will we be okay just waiting a couple of years, presumably after which the rankers will have moved on to the next flavor?

Mark:

Not positive but I'm pretty sure Rye was on the list once before, a few years ago, only to fall off the next time.

Back then, they didn't seem to care one way or the other.  I wonder if that has changed?

No change - no one cares about lists. As I've said in another thread, fairway watering was installed to keep the native fescues from disappearing. The only places where I can see a change is the high bank on the left of the 5th green and the last part of the approach to the 15th. I really don't understand why some people think Rye -or any links - has compromised by installing irrigation. If memory serves, TOC and RSG have managed to keep their character with it. It's all in how it's managed.

[Noel Freeman]

Tom,

There's always the question of not confusing cause and effect. I wish they wouldn't have added irrigation. I'm sure they didn't do it to make the list but I can see the impact of that decision being making the list. Hopefully it doesn't go any further than that. It sure was nice to have at least one legitimately top tier course that could bridge us in this way to the past.

Seems too early to have a cause/effect with the new watering system.  Although, this year of all years the difference in conditioning should be very marked. 

It seems to me there should always be a sacred four which are automatic for the world top 100.  One is, but the other three should be as well. 

Rye
North Berwick
TOC
St Enodoc

I spose since there is no mention of Deal it didn't make the list.  Hopefully it was seriously considered.   

I know it wasn't on the table, but Formby too should be a serious contender.

Ciao

Every voting period I try to push people to see Deal b/c I think 1) It is superior to Rye and 2) It is worthy of the list.  Getting panelists to visit there is not easy given so few go to Kent on a golf trip.  I know the purveyor of this site sees it my way but we are only 2 votes..I'm more interested also to see how high the Cal Club can climb the US list, it is supremely worthy.

[Sean_A]

Who do we see about getting Rye off this list?  Or will we be okay just waiting a couple of years, presumably after which the rankers will have moved on to the next flavor?

Mark:

Not positive but I'm pretty sure Rye was on the list once before, a few years ago, only to fall off the next time.

Back then, they didn't seem to care one way or the other.  I wonder if that has changed?

No change - no one cares about lists. As I've said in another thread, fairway watering was installed to keep the native fescues from disappearing. The only places where I can see a change is the high bank on the left of the 5th green and the last part of the approach to the 15th. I really don't understand why some people think Rye -or any links - has compromised by installing irrigation. If memory serves, TOC and RSG have managed to keep their character with it. It's all in how it's managed.

Craig

Nothing wrong with auto watering in principle.  Its how its managed which is important.  I think we can point to a long history of mismanagement on both sides of the pond with these systems.  Its easily done if the wrong folks get in charge.  Very slippery slope if you ask me because folks usually forget what the original intent was.

Tuco (is not dead)

While I think Deal should be given serious consideration for top 100, I would never say it is superior to Rye.

Ciao

[Mark Bourgeois]

Craig,

So you're saying they put in an entire watering system just to change two parts of the course?    Anyway, as far as I know, I am the only "some people" complaining! 

And I agree with Sean's and your point that once you have it you can abuse it. And can you say with any certainty systems didn't change TOC and Sandwich? Those are rota courses and who knows what sorts of changes were enabled.

And keep banging that gong, Noel! Why can't Deal supplant Rye? It certainly can because what Sean A doesn't acknowledge is that these lists, particularly at the bottom, are not about the courses but the people rating them. As more GCA.com types get on the board, the definition of greatness changes even as the courses themselves don't.

[Noel Freeman]

Who do we see about getting Rye off this list?  Or will we be okay just waiting a couple of years, presumably after which the rankers will have moved on to the next flavor?

Mark:

Not positive but I'm pretty sure Rye was on the list once before, a few years ago, only to fall off the next time.

Back then, they didn't seem to care one way or the other.  I wonder if that has changed?

No change - no one cares about lists. As I've said in another thread, fairway watering was installed to keep the native fescues from disappearing. The only places where I can see a change is the high bank on the left of the 5th green and the last part of the approach to the 15th. I really don't understand why some people think Rye -or any links - has compromised by installing irrigation. If memory serves, TOC and RSG have managed to keep their character with it. It's all in how it's managed.

Craig

Nothing wrong with auto watering in principle.  Its how its managed which is important.  I think we can point to a long history of mismanagement on both sides of the pond with these systems.  Its easily done if the wrong folks get in charge.  Very slippery slope if you ask me because folks usually forget what the original intent was.

Tuco (is not dead)

While I think Deal should be given serious consideration for top 100, I would never say it is superior to Rye.

Ciao

Sean-

I can’t elaborate at the moment but here is my issue.  I find holes 1-3 and 10-11,17 pedestrian/prosaic at Rye .. That is my opinion and flavor.  But that is 6 holes.  At Deal, one could argue that numbers 8,9,11 are pedestrian.  That’s half as many holes.  Furthermore the best holes at Rye 4,5,7,9,13,16,18 are countered in my mind by 3,4,6,10,15,16,17 at Deal.  Finally, I think the greens at Deal are superior to Rye as far as contours are concerned.  That is from memory, I’ve not been to Rye since 2008 in fairness.  That said I vote both in the World Top 100.. It is splitting hairs.  But for my money St.Enodoc is of course worthy as well.. I’ll give you one other thing, no one gives any love to St. Andrews New.  Severely underrated in my own personal golf list.

[Craig Disher]

Craig,

So you're saying they put in an entire watering system just to change two parts of the course?    Anyway, as far as I know, I am the only "some people" complaining! 

No. What I said is that the watering system was installed to address an agronomic problem - the native fescues were disappearing and being replaced by thicker meadow grass and weeds. There is an ideal links character that is much easier to maintain with intelligent use of irrigation than relying on the vagaries of the weather. From what I've seen Rye is doing that - one day, a greens staff was testing the fairways with a moisture probe making sure the watering was appropriate. The changes I mentioned were to two problem areas where grass was extremely sparse, especially on 5. The south facing slope barely had any grass cover.

You're not the only complainer, although you might be the only one on this DG. I've heard similar comments from members of other clubs in the area.

[Sean_A]

Who do we see about getting Rye off this list?  Or will we be okay just waiting a couple of years, presumably after which the rankers will have moved on to the next flavor?

Mark:

Not positive but I'm pretty sure Rye was on the list once before, a few years ago, only to fall off the next time.

Back then, they didn't seem to care one way or the other.  I wonder if that has changed?

No change - no one cares about lists. As I've said in another thread, fairway watering was installed to keep the native fescues from disappearing. The only places where I can see a change is the high bank on the left of the 5th green and the last part of the approach to the 15th. I really don't understand why some people think Rye -or any links - has compromised by installing irrigation. If memory serves, TOC and RSG have managed to keep their character with it. It's all in how it's managed.

Craig

Nothing wrong with auto watering in principle.  Its how its managed which is important.  I think we can point to a long history of mismanagement on both sides of the pond with these systems.  Its easily done if the wrong folks get in charge.  Very slippery slope if you ask me because folks usually forget what the original intent was.

Tuco (is not dead)

While I think Deal should be given serious consideration for top 100, I would never say it is superior to Rye.

Ciao

Sean-

I can’t elaborate at the moment but here is my issue.  I find holes 1-3 and 10-11,17 pedestrian/prosaic at Rye .. That is my opinion and flavor.  But that is 6 holes.  At Deal, one could argue that numbers 8,9,11 are pedestrian.  That’s half as many holes.  Furthermore the best holes at Rye 4,5,7,9,13,16,18 are countered in my mind by 3,4,6,10,15,16,17 at Deal.  Finally, I think the greens at Deal are superior to Rye as far as contours are concerned.  That is from memory, I’ve not been to Rye since 2008 in fairness.  That said I vote both in the World Top 100.. It is splitting hairs.  But for my money St.Enodoc is of course worthy as well.. I’ll give you one other thing, no one gives any love to St. Andrews New.  Severely underrated in my own personal golf list.

Tuco

#2 at Rye is at least the measure of any par 3 at Deal so we have serious disconnect off the start.  I see now you have gone from "superior" to "splitting hairs" - quite a different stance.

TNC is not in the same league as the others mentioned.  It is in no way worthy of top 100 world.  Nothing wrong with it mind you and one I would revisit if in the area when I'm organizing, but its far from special.  I can see it as a Doak 6 tops - we are talking about minimum 7s no?

Ciao 

[Noel Freeman]

Sean- I define superior like Webster.. Higher/status/rank.  To me Deal is superior on the Top 100 Golf rankings than Rye.  My prose is correct. Splitting hairs means they are close as in I vote them near each other but Rye will never overtake Deal in my mind.

I think #2 is a fine hole at Rye but is it really better than #14 at Deal?  I think not. Furthermore the current Sandy Parlour is pretty damn strong as a hole.  Play it downwind and tell me how to play it correctly.  Alas, 8 is not great but it is the only hole you hit dead straight at the North Sea with and its hungry pots gobble up any indifferent stroke.  That said, Rye wins the day at 5 and 7 easily which are vastly superior to Deal's offerings.  Also I find 14 a good hole but sandwiched b/t 13 and 15/16 a bit of a let down although you may say the same of Deal's 14th.  Finally, the 17th is just long and flat without much interest, I've examined it with Russell Talley and I recall saying it was just a letdown to get to 18.

Also you are comparing a course with 5 par 3s vs. 3 par 3s.. Is a larger sample size.

When you look at Rye, Deal has vastly superior par 5s from the tips (3 and 16) although Rye only has #1.

The par 4s are of great debate..

[Sean_A]

I am not a fan of the 14th - wrong type of hole in a tough stretch of golf.

What you say about Deal's SP is also very true about Rye's 2nd, try it down wind and then add in the bumpy terrain.  You and Brian are missing a trick here with your home course leanings.

Tossing out the routing, the 3s at Deal are its weak point - that and the bunkering.  There really is no excuse for not having a very good set of 3s.  The first mistake is there are only three...

Below is a look at the holes you are dismissing so lightly.








Okay, I can understand if you don't like water on a links - there goes #11 despite its excellent qualities using the angles.  I can understand if you don't like flat holes, there goes #17 despite it being in complete contrast to the other par 3s.  I can never buy saying #s 2 & 3 are anything less than very good.  That is simply a question of not paying attention to detail.  

Ciao

[Noel Freeman]

Sean, this will devolve into another Deal vs. ? or the merits of Deal debate.  #2 at Rye is over low profile hummocks where you can pretty much hit a ball that goes 6 feet above the ground and run in and hope it doesnt go into the pots flanking.. Downwind any approach will be tough on any links hole. I brought up downwind at Sandy Parlour b/c you have to flight the ball to carry the rushes and judge how to run it up a brilliant crowned green that throws off approaches--- where if you hit the right side it will slide off and almost always make 4.  Having the elevated tee and view of the cliffs of Ramsgate is also one that leads to aplomb.
As per 14, let me see Deal has 3 par 3s. One is a short iron, one a mid iron and one a hybrid or 5 wood. Call me crazy but that is variety amongst shots plus they all play in different winds.  Finally, so what the whole back 9 plays hard without much in the way of letups, but you have a short par 5 and a receptive green at 17 so buck up buttercup.  14 lets you bail out left if need be and besides you may need to hit the same shot into 15 on the approach (hybrid).

Deal's bunkering?  Easy now fuzzy little man peach hmm.. Are you kidding me.  They are revetted monsters that have the surrounding terrain funnel balls into them.  The course is not overbunkered and ones like the left one 7 green or left side 15 green (which finds may awry shots that hook off the huge dudescape) are ingeniously placed.  Deal plays over and thru the landform, it didnt need bunkering to gloss it up.  It is not Royal Melbourne.