[Adam Lawrence]

Let me recast this a little. Linksland exists before and without golf. The proof of this is that a lot of pieces of land that do not have golf courses on them are called the such and such links. The property on which the Trump course was built was called the Menie Links. The site near Elie on which a new course has been proposed is called the Dumbarnie Links, though it has never yet been home to a golf course. So the term 'links' refers to the land, and a 'links course' is simply a golf course laid out over linksland.

Such land exists in hot climates. It can be turned into golf courses, which can legitimately be called links courses. But the question is, does a grassing solution exist that can make such courses play the way the links we all know play?

[Sean_A]

Let me recast this a little. Linksland exists before and without golf. The proof of this is that a lot of pieces of land that do not have golf courses on them are called the such and such links. The property on which the Trump course was built was called the Menie Links. The site near Elie on which a new course has been proposed is called the Dumbarnie Links, though it has never yet been home to a golf course. So the term 'links' refers to the land, and a 'links course' is simply a golf course laid out over linksland.

Such land exists in hot climates. It can be turned into golf courses, which can legitimately be called links courses. But the question is, does a grassing solution exist that can make such courses play the way the links we all know play?

Okay, so you choose, as seems to be in vogue at the present, to focus on the geological definition for the term "links".  I believe that a separate (and equal - tee hee) and and traditional term specifically related to golf exists.  That term, "links", incorporates the geological term and includes cool season grasses as part of the golfing term.  The two (if we concede that the cool season grasses exist because of the sandy soil) are essential to the definition of links as the term has been used for a great many decades.  While it may easily be done that the geological and golfing terms are used to imply the same thing, I believe the inclusion of cool season grasses is inherent and just as important to the golfing term as is the concept of links land.  As I tried to illustrate earlier, Trump International is a prime example of why this is the case.  The grass used is incorrect so the course doesn't play like a links.  Therefore, I question if it is a links.  In my opinion, TI fails to meet the criteria of links as understood as a golfing term.  

I don't know why folks are suddenly placing the emphasis on links land (geological aspect of the term) to determine a links when it is clear the cool season grasses are essential to the concept of links as a golfing term.    

Ciao    

[Tom_Doak]

Okay, so you choose, as seems to be in vogue at the present, to focus on the geological definition for the term "links".  I believe that a separate (and equal - tee hee) and and traditional term specifically related to golf exists.  That term, "links", incorporates the geological term and includes cool season grasses as part of the golfing term.  The two (if we concede that the cool season grasses exist because of the sandy soil) are essential to the definition of links as the term has been used for a great many decades.  While it may easily be done that the geological and golfing terms are used to imply the same thing, I believe the inclusion of cool season grasses is inherent and just as important to the golfing term as is the concept of links land.  As I tried to illustrate earlier, Trump International is a prime example of why this is the case.  The grass used is incorrect so the course doesn't play like a links.  Therefore, I question if it is a links.  In my opinion, TI fails to meet the criteria of links as understood as a golfing term.  

I don't know why folks are suddenly placing the emphasis on links land (geological aspect of the term) to determine a links when it is clear the cool season grasses are essential to the concept of links as a golfing term.
   
 

Sean:

I'm okay with saying that some courses that are on dunesland / linksland DON'T play like a links because of their grasses.  But to dismiss ALL courses that are on warm-season turf, regardless of what they play like, seems unfair to me.

But, as you say, it's all about marketing now.  If we are just discussing one course at a time, it's easy to describe what is and isn't right about it, and not have to worry about whether it's a "true" links or not.


Brian S: 

The "True Links" authors' list is the one Jud linked to earlier.  But, those esteemed authors were also selling a book and indeed a "links society" that they were trying to form -- I don't know whether that's still active or not.  So there was marketing involved in their definition, too.  It's hard to escape in the modern world.  As are internet discussions about the "true" meaning of many words and who qualifies.

[Sean_A]

Okay, so you choose, as seems to be in vogue at the present, to focus on the geological definition for the term "links".  I believe that a separate (and equal - tee hee) and and traditional term specifically related to golf exists.  That term, "links", incorporates the geological term and includes cool season grasses as part of the golfing term.  The two (if we concede that the cool season grasses exist because of the sandy soil) are essential to the definition of links as the term has been used for a great many decades.  While it may easily be done that the geological and golfing terms are used to imply the same thing, I believe the inclusion of cool season grasses is inherent and just as important to the golfing term as is the concept of links land.  As I tried to illustrate earlier, Trump International is a prime example of why this is the case.  The grass used is incorrect so the course doesn't play like a links.  Therefore, I question if it is a links.  In my opinion, TI fails to meet the criteria of links as understood as a golfing term.  

I don't know why folks are suddenly placing the emphasis on links land (geological aspect of the term) to determine a links when it is clear the cool season grasses are essential to the concept of links as a golfing term.
   
 

Sean:

I'm okay with saying that some courses that are on dunesland / linksland DON'T play like a links because of their grasses.  But to dismiss ALL courses that are on warm-season turf, regardless of what they play like, seems unfair to me.

But, as you say, it's all about marketing now.  If we are just discussing one course at a time, it's easy to describe what is and isn't right about it, and not have to worry about whether it's a "true" links or not.


Brian S: 

The "True Links" authors' list is the one Jud linked to earlier.  But, those esteemed authors were also selling a book and indeed a "links society" that they were trying to form -- I don't know whether that's still active or not.  So there was marketing involved in their definition, too.  It's hard to escape in the modern world.  As are internet discussions about the "true" meaning of many words and who qualifies.

Tom

To be clear, I am not associating quality with the term "links".  I don't dismiss Trump I.  In fact I think its a great course, just not a links, as of yet anyway.  I also think Kiawah is great even though it is clearly not a links.  I think links has only one clear advantage, that is land that is viable for aerial and ground game golf.  Even when Trump is rolling like a links, the design won't have taken advantage of the grasses to their fullest potential.  I think it a strange choice given the rarity of such land, but so be it.

Ciao

[Don_Mahaffey]

Call me a snob.  But I am sticking to what the original intention of the term "links" meant as it relates to golf.  I see no reason to change that; especially if its marketing at the core of the change.

PS Just to be clear, I stated links should be near the sea.  Having a sea view is most pleasant, but not essential to the definition as I ever understood it.

Sean:

It's not really snobbish, so much as exclusionary -- and marketing is at the core of exclusionary, too. 

I don't see what the sea really has to do with it if the conditions are the same.  [The dunes in the sand hills were formed by an inland sea, long since vanished.]  Or, if it is the sea that's paramount to the definition, then I don't see how it can be the grasses, too.

Tom

The sea really does add the ultra exclusive aspect to the definition.  But I am merely retaining the definition as it was understood for a good few years before I was born.  I can't figure out what is hard to understand, links = seaside golf over sandy soil with cool season grasses.  This has been the accepted definition as it relates to golf for a very long time.  It is only recently that guys have come up with associating links with warm season grasses.  I can understand modern archies and developers wanting to muscle in on tradition and history of the term, but golly, if you want to create something different yet somewhat similar, can't y'all at least come up with your own term?  Or better yet, don't fall into the journalistic lingo and just call your work by its name.  Journalists and marketing folks will always be on the make - its natural and to some degree a necessary part of the golf business.  BUt all the terms don't need to be about business - do they?

Ciao 

Sean, am I supposed to apologize because I try and build courses that play like a links, no matter the turf. You've never heard me describe Wolf Point as a links, but I'll never be ashamed of trying to get her to play like one. And I don't see how that is cashing in, or muscling in on tradition. I happen to think trying to emulate links type golf is a plus no matter the site, soil, or grass. For me, its about the game, not the business. Maybe its this obsession with protecting the word "links" that is all about business. I think that argument could be made just as well.

[Sean_A]

Call me a snob.  But I am sticking to what the original intention of the term "links" meant as it relates to golf.  I see no reason to change that; especially if its marketing at the core of the change.

PS Just to be clear, I stated links should be near the sea.  Having a sea view is most pleasant, but not essential to the definition as I ever understood it.

Sean:

It's not really snobbish, so much as exclusionary -- and marketing is at the core of exclusionary, too. 

I don't see what the sea really has to do with it if the conditions are the same.  [The dunes in the sand hills were formed by an inland sea, long since vanished.]  Or, if it is the sea that's paramount to the definition, then I don't see how it can be the grasses, too.

Tom

The sea really does add the ultra exclusive aspect to the definition.  But I am merely retaining the definition as it was understood for a good few years before I was born.  I can't figure out what is hard to understand, links = seaside golf over sandy soil with cool season grasses.  This has been the accepted definition as it relates to golf for a very long time.  It is only recently that guys have come up with associating links with warm season grasses.  I can understand modern archies and developers wanting to muscle in on tradition and history of the term, but golly, if you want to create something different yet somewhat similar, can't y'all at least come up with your own term?  Or better yet, don't fall into the journalistic lingo and just call your work by its name.  Journalists and marketing folks will always be on the make - its natural and to some degree a necessary part of the golf business.  BUt all the terms don't need to be about business - do they?

Ciao 

Sean, am I supposed to apologize because I try and build courses that play like a links, no matter the turf. You've never heard me describe Wolf Point as a links, but I'll never be ashamed of trying to get her to play like one. And I don't see how that is cashing in, or muscling in on tradition. I happen to think trying to emulate links type golf is a plus no matter the site, soil, or grass. For me, its about the game, not the business. Maybe its this obsession with protecting the word "links" that is all about business. I think that argument could be made just as well.

I am not sure why there is animosity over this issue.  All I am doing is advocating for sticking to the traditional definition of links.  I see no reason to alter the definition except for recent marketing purposes and that isn't a good enough reason so far as I am concerned.  That in no way suggests that archies or courses can't aspire to links like qualities.  In fact, for anyone who knows me, that is the last thing I would discourage.

I am not trying to break balls here folks.  I would just like to be clear about the terms we use instead of having to invent new terms for old ideas; ie true links.

Ciao 

[paul cowley]

Sean - I have modified this 'links' title to better define what my intent of the subject post is all about...which is trying to determine the location and play characteristics of courses that are built on warmer sandy links environments that out of necessity use warm season grasses as a play surface...and I could care less about marketing, or muscle, or trying to take away anything from the original links courses of Northern Europe.

As you probably are aware, I have been involved in the design of a golf course (Diamante Dunes) that is located in the tropics on the Pacific Ocean. The course is in a strong dune system (50+ meters high) that was deposited by the ocean and is divided by an arroyo (intermittent river) that provides for an additional sand supply. This area is sparsely vegetated being the southern extent of the Sonoran Desert.

The topography of the dunes system is every bit as strong as Ballybunion (Tom D could probably concur), and given adequate rainfall and a more temperate latitude they would be very similar.

To build the course we added water to make up for the lack of rainfall and added a warm season grass that was able to handle the high temperatures of the region...while designing and shaping the the course to to reflect the high winds and sandy conditions that exist there.

I think we did OK given the fact that I had few similar golf course precedents to refer to (Forrest Richardson could also concur)...as links style courses in a desert terrain are a modern occurrence, primarily because of new water sources and the ability to irrigate.

All this being said, I would like to get back to the original intent of this thread...which was to try to identify similar courses, and their conditions and play characteristics.

Chow

[paul cowley]

 Sean...after reading your latest post...maybe you could come up with an appropriate term to describe what category or style of course Diamante Dunes (google it) might fit into.

[Mike Sweeney]

 

I don't know why folks are suddenly placing the emphasis on links land (geological aspect of the term) to determine a links when it is clear the cool season grasses are essential to the concept of links as a golfing term.    

Ciao    

Sean,

Unfortunately you have an economic conflict of interest here. You run a tour company that seems to focus on "classic" courses, and any widening of the links definition potentially increases competition against your company.

Streamsong sits on land that probably was near or close to the sea at one point:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Wales_Ridge

Now, grasses have evolved, so the concept of cool season grasses as the only way to define a links seems very limiting in the modern era. I will probably be playing Streamsong over Labor Day weekend, and perhaps I can report back on my thoughts as to how it plays in comparison to last December when it first opened.

[Sean_A]

 

I don't know why folks are suddenly placing the emphasis on links land (geological aspect of the term) to determine a links when it is clear the cool season grasses are essential to the concept of links as a golfing term.    

Ciao    

Sean,

Unfortunately you have an economic conflict of interest here. You run a tour company that seems to focus on "classic" courses, and any widening of the links definition potentially increases competition against your company.

Streamsong sits on land that probably was near or close to the sea at one point:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Wales_Ridge

Now, grasses have evolved, so the concept of cool season grasses as the only way to define a links seems very limiting in the modern era. I will probably be playing Streamsong over Labor Day weekend, and perhaps I can report back on my thoughts as to how it plays in comparison to last December when it first opened.

Mike

I am very, very small beer in the world of golf.  You honestly think my sticking to what has been acknowledged as the definition of links since the word was first used to describe a golf course is a conflict of interest? 

BTW - I have a very open mind about this.  If a course can be shown to play like a links and possesses the other characteristics of a links, why not include it as a links?  To date, I am not aware the development of new warm season grasses has been able to achieve this. The wonderful thing about links they reflect the weather yet remain very playable regardless.  Hence we can have Muirfield like conditions and a few weeks later a completely different course is on offer.  With these sorts of qualities its no wonder developers and archies are fighting over themselves to incorporate that magical word in their marketing.  For obvious reasons its to be expected. 

I wonder if to some degree the authors of True Links were engaging in a fightback against the flippant use of the term "links"?  if so, their cause would have been better served if they dropped the first word of the title.

Ciao

[Ulrich Mayring]

Le Touquet La Mer has sea views (well, one sea view from an elevated vantage point ;-), it plays on sandy soil, is bordered by whispy marram grass type of rough and typical seaside shrubs, plays over and through dunes, plays firm and fast (although it is not maintained as firm and fast as a traditional British links, but it does have plenty of ground game). Yet it is never included in any list of links courses - so what's missing here? And, for that matter, at Wimereux, which sits on pure dunesland?

Ulrich

[Mike Sweeney]

Paul,

The new technology that is available to the modern definition of "links" is sand capping. Here is an older thread about the sand capping at MPCC that Stranz used on his course and the difference in playing characteristics between the Shore and the Dunes:

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php?topic=47335.0

After how many inches/feet of sand, can a course be called a links?

[Adam Lawrence]

Mike's question is a very good one. Few people question Kingsbarns' right to be called a links, but it's a constructed golf course, albeit one built of sand mined on site. And it's not the only one. Budersand in Germany is in the middle of natural linksland, but it's built on the site of an old airbase. The property _was_ links, and now perhaps it is again. But all the landforms are constructed. It's not simple.

[Tom_Doak]

Paul,

The new technology that is available to the modern definition of "links" is sand capping. Here is an older thread about the sand capping at MPCC that Stranz used on his course and the difference in playing characteristics between the Shore and the Dunes:

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php?topic=47335.0

After how many inches/feet of sand, can a course be called a links?

I would never call a sand-capped course a links ... even though three holes at Pacific Dunes are capped with three feet of sand.

Ulrich:

Le Touquet has a few links holes.  [Chiberta has a few more, and for some reason it's not included in the True Links list, either.]  I just didn't think to mention them here because Le Touquet, at least, is not a warm-season grass environment.

As for Kingsbarns and Budersand [and Cabot Links, and many other modern courses], I guess it's easier to get away with calling them links when they are right by the water and in the midst of dunes.  And it does help that the wind and the weather are conducive to links golf conditions.

[Brent Hutto]

I don't want to get into a nomenclature-ownership pissing contest but one aspect of Sean's position seem crucial to me. Regardless of constructed vs. natural, sea views vs. not or any other specifics there is the undeniable importance of the turf grass itself.

I would rather play a course like the Ocean Course at Kiawah than some squishy wet, non-sand-based warm climate equivalent. But there is a huge difference you can feel the minute you step foot onto the property between a Paspalum-grassed bit of sandy soil and a fescue (or other cool-climate links grasses) piece of sandy turf. And when you actually hit the shots, that difference is magnified.

Whether or not one chooses to reserve the word "links" for this specific meaning, let's not lose sight of the fact that the experience of playing golf on links turf, managed in the traditional links manner (or not managed may be a more apt term) and consisting of the traditional mix of cool-climate links grasses is a massively superior experience to playing on any other surface. Yes I'm making a personal value judgment but come on, we all know it's true.

If you're on the Pacific ocean in the tropics, no doubt trying to emulate as much of the desirable nature of a links course as possible is a worthy goal. And the golfers who play that could will (or should) thank you for it. But we need some way of distinguishing verbally or in writing that there's this other thing that exists in high latitude maritime climates that offer a complete different experience. I honestly don't know what is to be gained by flattening out the terminology to obscure the differences that a bloody 15-handicapper can perceive after playing one hole.

[Adam Clayman]

This old definition, has more to it, doesn't it?
Land unsuitable....Aluvial fans.... blah blah blah

If the ground is firm, and the wind often blows, and you're on a canvas that allows for non-dictated, creative shot making, off varied lies, now you're golfing.

With all the bastardizations of terminology, this links definition debate isn't worth the effort. Heck, american golfers consider 18 connected holes to be a links.

[Brent Hutto]

So do we have to call those courses like The Old Course "Links with cool climate turf" to distinguish them from "any place that's firm and fast"?

[Garland Bayley]

would Newport Dunes, near Corpus Christi, TX, be considered a warm weather links?  I would argue, yes.  Natural dunes? Check.  Near the ocean?  Check.  Wind?  Check. 

It is grassed with paspalum.  I am surprised at how little discussion it receives here.  Possibly our ranks are thin in the area and not many have played it.

Isn't that a housing development course? If so, I am not surprised it gets little discussion.

[Richard Choi]

Sean, your definition of like is not sufficient as well since Chambers Bay meets every criteria and it is still not listed as "true" like because Puget Soulnf is not wide enough.

[Garland Bayley]

I thought the authors of True Links did a pretty good job of putting this debate to bed. Sean's comments seem to accord with my understanding of the term and the definition laid out in said book - I'm sure there's a thread on it somewhere, but was much of what was written in that book called into question? Clearly, it hasn't become the definitive text on the subject, if this thread is anything to go by.

So is this Mullion that you want to play a links? Geographically it looks like one, but True Links wise it doesn't.

[Sean_A]

Sean, your definition of like is not sufficient as well since Chambers Bay meets every criteria and it is still not listed as "true" like because Puget Soulnf is not wide enough.

Hang on Richard - its not my definition.  The definition I use is older than "par".  While I understand folks want to bask in the warm glow of "links", the word is defined.  Everything else is something else.  Its not about making a qualitative statement as some people seem to think, but we all know the inherent quality of links and hence the reason archies and developers want to ride the coat tails. 

Ciao

[Tom_Doak]

Sean, your definition of like is not sufficient as well since Chambers Bay meets every criteria and it is still not listed as "true" like because Puget Soulnf is not wide enough.

Wasn't Chambers Bay a quarry?  That would be what held it back in my view, not the width of Puget Sound.

I don't want to get into a nomenclature-ownership pissing contest but one aspect of Sean's position seem crucial to me. Regardless of constructed vs. natural, sea views vs. not or any other specifics there is the undeniable importance of the turf grass itself.

I would rather play a course like the Ocean Course at Kiawah than some squishy wet, non-sand-based warm climate equivalent. But there is a huge difference you can feel the minute you step foot onto the property between a Paspalum-grassed bit of sandy soil and a fescue (or other cool-climate links grasses) piece of sandy turf. And when you actually hit the shots, that difference is magnified.

I do think the turf is important, but it's bothersome that you have the same conditions in Nebraska and those are disqualified as links because they're not near the sea.

There is no real answer to these questions.  The authors of True Links went by the same principle as Sean, that the most stringent definition wins -- even though they then made a few exceptions!  We are really talking about three different things -- "linksland" [geology] and "links golf" [playing conditions] and "links turf" [grass types].  Do you have to have all three to have a "links golf course"?  And even then, do you have to have the fourth -- seaside setting?

[Garland Bayley]

I thought the authors of True Links did a pretty good job of putting this debate to bed. Sean's comments seem to accord with my understanding of the term and the definition laid out in said book - I'm sure there's a thread on it somewhere, but was much of what was written in that book called into question? Clearly, it hasn't become the definitive text on the subject, if this thread is anything to go by.

So is this Mullion that you want to play a links? Geographically it looks like one, but True Links wise it doesn't.

I think it is a clifftop course - so not a links. The pics on the website seem to confirm that as a correct exclusion from the book - although, granted, some of the holes do have a linksy look.

In that book, they seemed to take the standard definition of a links course and expand upon it, discussing possible grey areas and then making a considered judgement. They seem to do a good job.

Once you play it let me know what you think. After all, aren't the Bandon courses clifftop?

[Thomas Dai]

There are indeed cliff top courses, and some of these cliff top courses even have natural sand dunes on top of the cliffs.
ATB

[Greg Tallman]

Sean, your definition of like is not sufficient as well since Chambers Bay meets every criteria and it is still not listed as "true" like because Puget Soulnf is not wide enough.

Wasn't Chambers Bay a quarry?  That would be what held it back in my view, not the width of Puget Sound.



Why would its former life as a quarry be important? SImply because it is not natural? Then Kingsbarns is out as well.

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