[paul cowley]

We created Diamante and Tom Doak created Bay of Dreams (NLE most unfortunately), two courses that represent a small fraternity of courses worldwide.

What are the others...their location, grass type and play characteristics?

[Adam Lawrence]

There are quite a lot, in natural dunes and otherwise. Grasses vary: lots of paspalum, a fair bit of bermuda in one form or another. Dr Micah Woods of the Asian Turfrgrass Center did an intereresting (though it must be said, fairly controversial) article for me in the magazine a couple of issues ago. His theory is that if you want warm season turf to play firm, you should grass with the stuff that grows naturally in those locations, surviving hot weather and frequent droughts. I haven't visited yet, but the new Laguna Lang Co course designed by the Faldo firm (I believe Paul Jansen was the project architect) is the closest to his ideal mix - it uses manilagrass (zoysia matrella) on the fairways.

I like paspalum because it tends to be used wall to wall, which means you don't have the issue of different turf with different characteristics in different areas, but it can be extremely sticky. Great when dormant, but that isn't an answer really. At Mazagan in Morocco, architect Frank Henegan, then working for the Gary Player firm, built a really excellent warm season links in some tremendous natural dunes, but the paspalum, at least when I visited, was a bit shaggy and sticky, making proper links shotmaking difficult. They may have figured out the solution by now, I don't know.

Perry Dye's Lykia Links in Turkey may be the best warm season links property I've seen. The golf course is interesting, but to my taste Perry's touch was a little heavy handed - I would really rather not see perfect natural dunes bulldozed to create a big lake around which you wrap the ninth and eighteenth holes. It's also extremely difficult - the seventeenth is a brute of a par three - so if anyone goes I'd advise an early tee time, or you'll have a very long round. Again, it's paspalum, I forget which strain.

A real problem for links courses in warm season environments is the out of play areas. There doesn't seem to be an ideal grass to achieve the waving but open links rough look. If anyone has found an answer, I'd be very keen to hear about it and see it.

[Anders Rytter]

Haven't play any of them, but
Yas Links - Abu Dhabi
Alcaidesa links - Spain (costa del sol)

[Tom_Doak]

Paul:

I don't know that I would have considered the Bay of Dreams a links course, since it wandered well up into the desert.  Actually, I'd say Streamsong is closer to a links ... it's the firmest and fastest warm-season turf I've played on, that wasn't dormant.

There are a lot of faux links with warm-season grasses.  There are only a few real ones that I've seen:

Paraparaumu Beach, N.Z.  - not sure what the turf is there, honestly, it might be cool-season
Humewood, S. Africa
Durban CC, S. Africa - a few holes are links - native paspalum turf
El Saler, Valencia, Spain - some trees about, but definitely links


Others I haven't seen, but have heard good reports of:

East London, S. Africa
Mar del Plata, Argentina
Abaco Club, Bahamas

[Adam Lawrence]

Yas is very good, but it's a constructed landscape, not a natural links. I don't know Alcaidesa.

[Leo Barber]

Paraparaumu Beach, N.Z.  - not sure what the turf is there, honestly, it might be cool-season

Tom,

Cool season at Paraparaumu Beach.

In NZ I would list Muriwai, Kaitaia, Waipu and Ohope.

Leo

[Ted Cahill]

would Newport Dunes, near Corpus Christi, TX, be considered a warm weather links?  I would argue, yes.  Natural dunes? Check.  Near the ocean?  Check.  Wind?  Check. 

It is grassed with paspalum.  I am surprised at how little discussion it receives here.  Possibly our ranks are thin in the area and not many have played it.

[Sean_A]

What the heck is a "warm weather" links and is the word "links" appropriately used in this case?

Ciao

[Mike Sweeney]

What the heck is a "warm weather" links and is the word "links" appropriately used in this case?

Ciao

Sean,

As a tour operator that host groups on UK links courses, I would be interested in your definition of a links course.

I have not played it, but Wolf Point seems like it should be in the conversation:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,56254.0.html

Thanks

[Joey Chase]

Although they have bentgrass greens, Oitavos Dunes, Praia D'el Rey, and Troia in Portugal all have Bermuda fairways.  It would be fantastic if they could get the conditioning right, they all play a bit soft.  What about Mazagan in Morocco?  I haven't been there, but it looks quite interesting.  Whether they are getting the course firm and fast, I do not know.

[Sean_A]

What the heck is a "warm weather" links and is the word "links" appropriately used in this case?

Ciao

Sean,

As a tour operator that host groups on UK links courses, I would be interested in your definition of a links course.

Thanks

Mike

I don't have a hard definition for links because there are always good exceptions.  However, it seems to me that sandy soil with fescues and bents near the sea are three prerequisites.  To say a course is a links and then say the grass is sticky doesn't work for me.  

I suspect Kiawah is classed as a warm season links, but I would just say its a seaside course - nothing to do with links.  That said, I think Paspalum is the grass and I didn't think it was bad.  Not links, but okay.  I don't have a clue as to much stress the grass can take, but it was quite green coming out of winter - which I found a bit surprising.  

In any case, I find it confusing and misleading to use the term "links" for a course which doesn't have the prerequisites of a links.  Why not just call it what it is?  Its almost as if folks are trying to prescribe a look and/or design style to determine the usage of the word "links".  That I think is quite incorrect.

Joey mentions Praia D'el Rey, that too is not something I would call a links.  Good course, but not a links.

Ciao

[Thomas Dai]

I always thought the term 'links' was a GB&I term used to describe an area that "links the sea with the fertile land".

I imagine there must be other phrases used in other countries to describe similar areas that "link the sea with the fertile land". Maybe that word, variable on depending on location, could be added before the word 'course' to describe an area where golf is also played very adjacent to the sea whilst those GB&I courses next to the sea and incorporating Sean's three prerequisites of sandy soil with fescues and bents could be termed 'traditional links'.

As for GB&I newbies such Kingsbarns and Castle Stuart would 'faux links' be appropriate? I'm sure someone can come up with another term to describe a modern build next to the GB&I coastline that has other varieties of grass currently present.....how about knapdarloch?

All the best

[Brent Hutto]

In USA the word "links" has a colloquial meaning that has nothing at all to do with fescue grass, sand, proximity to the sea or climate. As best I can tell, among non-golf-course-geeks hereabouts it simply means a course that:

a) Is firm enough to allow a 7-iron shot to land well short of the green and bounce on and
b) Flat to moderately rolling terrain with fewer trees than a normal parkland course

Some people will say "links style" in reference to such courses. Those are the usually the ones who have taken a vacation to Scotland or Ireland and know what an actual links course is like. But lots of folks just say "links" to mean firm, fast and low-profile.

[Jud_T]

http://www.migrantgolfer.com/the-true-links-courses-of-the-world/

[Tom_Doak]

http://www.migrantgolfer.com/the-true-links-courses-of-the-world/

Jud:

That was an attempt to be a definitive list, in which I had a small amount of input.  [I don't think either of the authors had ever been to Humewood, for one.]  But since there is no universally agreed definition of "links", it's hard for there to be a definitive list of links courses.  The list you cite leaned heavily toward fescue-based courses, which pretty much eliminates "warm season" climates and nearly all of the candidates listed above.

[Adam Lawrence]

I think linksland can exist in climates where the natural grasses of a north European links course wouldn't flourish. The processes by which sand is deposited and dunes built up by the action of the sea is not dependent on a cool climate, though clearly the existence of vegetation based on fescues, bents and marrams is. So the courses I have cited are all on what I would consider natural linksland. The challenge on such sites is to find a grassing scheme that replicates, as near as possible, the playing characteristics of a traditional cool climate links.

[Sean_A]

Adam

Therein lies your (or the) problem.  Surely when the term "links" was devised for golf it included the use of cool season grasses.  It is only in recent years where warm season courses wishing to cash in on the links bonanza have claimed to be "links".  Now we seem to have a new term, "warm season links" in usage.  I don't care for it because at best its very misleading term which seems to purposely play down the importance of the grasses on true links.  Having recently played Trump International and experienced warm season links conditions, I can say I felt very misled by the journalist talk beforehand.  The course plays nothing like a links right now and I think that fact was vastly under-reported. 

Ciao

[Adam Lawrence]

Adam

Therein lies your (or the) problem.  Surely when the term "links" was devised for golf it included the use of cool season grasses.  It is only in recent years where warm season courses wishing to cash in on the links bonanza have claimed to be "links".  Now we seem to have a new term, "warm season links" in usage.  I don't care for it because at best its very misleading term which seems to purposely play down the importance of the grasses on true links.  Having recently played Trump International and experienced warm season links conditions, I can say I felt very misled by the journalist talk beforehand.  The course plays nothing like a links right now and I think that fact was vastly under-reported. 

Ciao

Sean, Trump International isn't a warm season links, and the conditions you experienced had nothing to do with warm season grasses. Perennial rye is not a warm season grass. I still think that linksland is defined in geological terms, though I totally accept that the grasses are inherent to the golf experience. But linksland is linksland whether or not there is golf on it. What else would you call a piece of land in a hot climate that was next to the water and made up of sand  deposited there by the action of the sea?

[Mike_Young]

Dauphin Island GC on Dauphin Island Alabama.  True links  just google earth it.  I spent a week there working on a masterplan a few years ago but it is just one of those spots that goes under water with each hurricane so it doesn't have much future...but it is pure links.

http://blog.al.com/live/2011/12/mulligan_for_dauphin_island_go.html

[Sean_A]

Adam

Therein lies your (or the) problem.  Surely when the term "links" was devised for golf it included the use of cool season grasses.  It is only in recent years where warm season courses wishing to cash in on the links bonanza have claimed to be "links".  Now we seem to have a new term, "warm season links" in usage.  I don't care for it because at best its very misleading term which seems to purposely play down the importance of the grasses on true links.  Having recently played Trump International and experienced warm season links conditions, I can say I felt very misled by the journalist talk beforehand.  The course plays nothing like a links right now and I think that fact was vastly under-reported. 

Ciao

Sean, Trump International isn't a warm season links, and the conditions you experienced had nothing to do with warm season grasses. Perennial rye is not a warm season grass. I still think that linksland is defined in geological terms, though I totally accept that the grasses are inherent to the golf experience. But linksland is linksland whether or not there is golf on it. What else would you call a piece of land in a hot climate that was next to the water and made up of sand  deposited there by the action of the sea?

Adam

As I noted above, in the context of golf, the grasses are inherent to understanding/defining links.  I am not much interested in what links is if golf isn't involved.  We can agree to disagree, but I think it disingenous to use the word "links" in describing a golf course that doesn't have the required grasses to be called a true links.  Hence the reason we see the term "faux links" used.  I understand that term has a negative connotation, but why not just say seaside course?  Because of this contorted use of the word "links" for marketing purposes we now are referring to links as "true links".  Its crazy.  Besides, I don't like it when guys come up with what they think are clever little lines such as warm season links.  If a guy wants to seem clever, let him be original.

I understand the issue with Rye at Trump.  I was merely comparing that sort of grass with warm season links to be somewhat similar and very different from cool season grasses.  

Ciao

[Tom_Doak]

Adam

Therein lies your (or the) problem.  Surely when the term "links" was devised for golf it included the use of cool season grasses.  It is only in recent years where warm season courses wishing to cash in on the links bonanza have claimed to be "links".  Now we seem to have a new term, "warm season links" in usage.  I don't care for it because at best its very misleading term which seems to purposely play down the importance of the grasses on true links.  Having recently played Trump International and experienced warm season links conditions, I can say I felt very misled by the journalist talk beforehand.  The course plays nothing like a links right now and I think that fact was vastly under-reported. 

Ciao

Sean, Trump International isn't a warm season links, and the conditions you experienced had nothing to do with warm season grasses. Perennial rye is not a warm season grass. I still think that linksland is defined in geological terms, though I totally accept that the grasses are inherent to the golf experience. But linksland is linksland whether or not there is golf on it. What else would you call a piece of land in a hot climate that was next to the water and made up of sand  deposited there by the action of the sea?

Adam

As I noted above, in the context of golf, the grasses are inherent to understanding/defining links.  I am not much interested in what links is if golf isn't involved.  We can agree to disagree, but I think it disingenous to use the word "links" in describing a golf course that doesn't have the required grasses to be called a true links.  Hence the reason we see the term "faux links" used.  I understand that term has a negative connotation, but why not just say seaside course?  Because of this contorted use of the word "links" for marketing purposes we now are referring to links as "true links".  Its crazy.  Besides, I don't like it when guys come up with what they think are clever little lines such as warm season links.  If a guy wants to seem clever, let him be original.

I understand the issue with Rye at Trump.  I was merely comparing that sort of grass with warm season links to be somewhat similar and very different from cool season grasses.  

Ciao

Sean:

I only use the term "faux links" if the ground has been reshaped to resemble what people think of as a links. 

If the sand is natural and the contour of the fairways is mostly natural, to me, that's a real links, regardless of whether it's in a climate that allows fescue.  But there are not many such courses.

If you're going to make it more about the playing conditions and fescue, then everything in the Sand Hills should also be counted.

If you're going to add the sea view, too -- then you're just being a snob and trying to limit "links" to northern Europe.

[Bill_McBride]

Dauphin Island GC on Dauphin Island Alabama.  True links  just google earth it.  I spent a week there working on a masterplan a few years ago but it is just one of those spots that goes under water with each hurricane so it doesn't have much future...but it is pure links.

http://blog.al.com/live/2011/12/mulligan_for_dauphin_island_go.html

John Moore played Dauphin Island a year or so ago and reported it was about to be NLE.  It is very low indeed.  

[Sean_A]

Adam

Therein lies your (or the) problem.  Surely when the term "links" was devised for golf it included the use of cool season grasses.  It is only in recent years where warm season courses wishing to cash in on the links bonanza have claimed to be "links".  Now we seem to have a new term, "warm season links" in usage.  I don't care for it because at best its very misleading term which seems to purposely play down the importance of the grasses on true links.  Having recently played Trump International and experienced warm season links conditions, I can say I felt very misled by the journalist talk beforehand.  The course plays nothing like a links right now and I think that fact was vastly under-reported.  

Ciao

Sean, Trump International isn't a warm season links, and the conditions you experienced had nothing to do with warm season grasses. Perennial rye is not a warm season grass. I still think that linksland is defined in geological terms, though I totally accept that the grasses are inherent to the golf experience. But linksland is linksland whether or not there is golf on it. What else would you call a piece of land in a hot climate that was next to the water and made up of sand  deposited there by the action of the sea?

Adam

As I noted above, in the context of golf, the grasses are inherent to understanding/defining links.  I am not much interested in what links is if golf isn't involved.  We can agree to disagree, but I think it disingenous to use the word "links" in describing a golf course that doesn't have the required grasses to be called a true links.  Hence the reason we see the term "faux links" used.  I understand that term has a negative connotation, but why not just say seaside course?  Because of this contorted use of the word "links" for marketing purposes we now are referring to links as "true links".  Its crazy.  Besides, I don't like it when guys come up with what they think are clever little lines such as warm season links.  If a guy wants to seem clever, let him be original.

I understand the issue with Rye at Trump.  I was merely comparing that sort of grass with warm season links to be somewhat similar and very different from cool season grasses.  

Ciao

Sean:

I only use the term "faux links" if the ground has been reshaped to resemble what people think of as a links.  

If the sand is natural and the contour of the fairways is mostly natural, to me, that's a real links, regardless of whether it's in a climate that allows fescue.  But there are not many such courses.

If you're going to make it more about the playing conditions and fescue, then everything in the Sand Hills should also be counted.

If you're going to add the sea view, too -- then you're just being a snob and trying to limit "links" to northern Europe.

Call me a snob.  But I am sticking to what the original intention of the term "links" meant as it relates to golf.  I see no reason to change that; especially if its marketing at the core of the change.

PS Just to be clear, I stated links should be near the sea.  Having a sea view is most pleasant, but not essential to the definition as I ever understood it.

Ciao

[Tom_Doak]

Call me a snob.  But I am sticking to what the original intention of the term "links" meant as it relates to golf.  I see no reason to change that; especially if its marketing at the core of the change.

PS Just to be clear, I stated links should be near the sea.  Having a sea view is most pleasant, but not essential to the definition as I ever understood it.

Sean:

It's not really snobbish, so much as exclusionary -- and marketing is at the core of exclusionary, too. 

I don't see what the sea really has to do with it if the conditions are the same.  [The dunes in the sand hills were formed by an inland sea, long since vanished.]  Or, if it is the sea that's paramount to the definition, then I don't see how it can be the grasses, too.

[Sean_A]

Call me a snob.  But I am sticking to what the original intention of the term "links" meant as it relates to golf.  I see no reason to change that; especially if its marketing at the core of the change.

PS Just to be clear, I stated links should be near the sea.  Having a sea view is most pleasant, but not essential to the definition as I ever understood it.

Sean:

It's not really snobbish, so much as exclusionary -- and marketing is at the core of exclusionary, too. 

I don't see what the sea really has to do with it if the conditions are the same.  [The dunes in the sand hills were formed by an inland sea, long since vanished.]  Or, if it is the sea that's paramount to the definition, then I don't see how it can be the grasses, too.

Tom

The sea really does add the ultra exclusive aspect to the definition.  But I am merely retaining the definition as it was understood for a good few years before I was born.  I can't figure out what is hard to understand, links = seaside golf over sandy soil with cool season grasses.  This has been the accepted definition as it relates to golf for a very long time.  It is only recently that guys have come up with associating links with warm season grasses.  I can understand modern archies and developers wanting to muscle in on tradition and history of the term, but golly, if you want to create something different yet somewhat similar, can't y'all at least come up with your own term?  Or better yet, don't fall into the journalistic lingo and just call your work by its name.  Journalists and marketing folks will always be on the make - its natural and to some degree a necessary part of the golf business.  BUt all the terms don't need to be about business - do they?

Ciao 

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