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Patrick_Mucci

continued broadening of the spectrum of golfers in the modern era ?

By pass/fail architecture I'm refering to situations where the architect demands performance.

And, not just in situations where length is the primary criterion.

I was having a discussion about Pine Valley with some friends the other day and was telling them on that certain holes, like # 5 and # 14, the architect has demanded performance in the way of an architectural test and that you either pass or fail that test.

Holes like # 5 and # 14 are fairly obvious in that regard, but, so many other holes at Pine Valley present a performance test, albeit in different forms.

Holes like # 2, 3, 5, 6, 7, 8, 10, 13, 14, 15, 17 and 18 each present their unique tests.

Then, I thought of holes like # 2, # 3, # 4, # 8, # 9, # 12 and # 18 at GCGC which each offer their version of the pass/fail test.

And, at NGLA, holes like # 2, # 3, # 4, # 6, # 8, # 9, # 10, # 11, # 13, # 14, # 16 and # 17 which also present their version of demand performance tests.

Holes like # 2 at PV and # 8 at NGLA present the golfer with a test not disimilar in principle to that of a soldier attempting to siege/storm the castle, that sits high above the soldier.

In golf, the defense is the high hill, laden with bunkers, which will repel and punish failed attempts.

There's something thrillling about the sight of those elevated, well protected greens, as viewed from the fairway and there's something even more thrilling about hitting a solid shot that finds the putting surface.  It's a thrill far more satisfactory than one earned from just hitting a green at grade.

The 3rd hole at Sebonack has that element as well.

Now I realize that the topography has to be "right", but, with all of the earthmoving equipment available to today's architects, why don't we see more of these architectural situations presented to us ?

Is it because the game is being made easier for the lower 10 % to 25 % of golfers ? 

Even the 17th hole at PV has that siege/storm element.
It has one of the widest, most forgiving fairways in golf, leaving the golfer with a short, uphill shot from the upslope of the fairway, yet, that test is far more difficult than the yardage would indicate.

Now PV was created and designed for the "championship" golfer, but, today it's enjoyed by a far broader spectrum.

Although, if you're not a solid striker of the golf ball, PV will punish you severely.

When I look at courses like PV, GCGC and NGLA, the number of pass/fail tests presented to the golfer is significant in number and not occasional.

I hear so many people comment that they don't mind a feature if it only appears a few times, but that they don't like a feature if it's repetitive.  Yet, PV, NGLA and GCGC have the pass/fail feature in abundance and no one can question the merits of those three courses.

Has modern day architecture failed to present those tests in abundance in an effort to cater to the lowest common denominator ?

Has modern day architecture reduced and/or eliminated those tests in the name of "fairness"

Has modern day architecture abandoned those tests in favor of tests that focus on length instead ?

Would you rather play the short but dangerous par 4 17th at PV or a 460 yard par 4 somewhere else.
Would you rather play the short but dangerous par 3 6th at NGLA and 2nd at GCGC or a 240 yard par 3 somewhere else ?

Are you a fan of benign architecture that gives you a hall pass or demanding architecture that will give your performance a passing or failing grade ?

Lastly, don't even mention slow play as an impediment for their creation.
Play at PV is in under 4 hours, thus debunking that theory.



Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Patrick:

First of all, Pine Valley is a lousy example for this exercise, because nobody develops courses these days to cater exclusively to handicaps of 12 and under.  That is not 75% of the market, as you implied -- that's the upper 25% of the market.  Most developers today would want to cater to at least the upper 75%, which would mean handicaps under 25.  And those people aren't going to finish Pine Valley in four hours, even if they pick up on six holes.

But, as I said, Pine Valley is a lousy example.  I think there are plenty of modern courses that are as testing as NGLA or Garden City.  The modern courses might not have quite as many forced carries due to cross bunkers, but the difficulty of those hazards is somewhat overrated.

The main reason modern courses don't have more cross-hazards is that it's hard to reconcile them with having 4-5 tees per hole ... the cross hazard is almost guaranteed to be right in someone's landing area, where they have no chance of carrying it.  You can challenge that convention occasionally -- we did it with the 17th hole at Streamsong -- but it would be heavily criticized to do it repeatedly.

Jeff Taylor

  • Karma: +0/-0
Is pass fail required anymore?
A golf hole can test someones talent without punishing the lesser golfer. Is the reward not as sweet just because someone else didn't suffer?

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Dr Mackenzie didn't have a "pass/fail" exam on his courses, there was always a way around trouble at the cost of an extra stroke or two. 

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
"Dr Mackenzie didn't have a "pass/fail" exam on his courses, there was always a way around trouble at the cost of an extra stroke or two."

Indeed. Didn't the good Doctor say a well designed course could be played with a putter? ;)

Patrick_Mucci


Is pass fail required anymore?
A golf hole can test someones talent without punishing the lesser golfer.

How ?

Could you cite some holes that accomplish this ?


Is the reward not as sweet just because someone else didn't suffer?

No, it's not.

If it's easy for everyone, what's the attraction, what's the challenge ?

« Last Edit: July 26, 2013, 09:03:24 PM by Patrick_Mucci »

Patrick_Mucci

"Dr Mackenzie didn't have a "pass/fail" exam on his courses, there was always a way around trouble at the cost of an extra stroke or two."

Indeed. Didn't the good Doctor say a well designed course could be played with a putter? ;)

Then perhaps you can tell us how to play # 15 and # 17 at CPC with a putter.

And, while you're doing that, you can tell us how to get around trouble on those two holes.

We can discuss # 16 as well.
I'd like to see how that would be played with a putter.



Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Pat,

Aren't great greens and contour that provide for a difficult par/birdie, where an aggressive play can lead to a large number but a relatively straightforward bogie a better answer to the question?  I'm thinking of great short 4's where short grass is the main hazard, i.e. Pac Dunes #6 or Kingsley #13.  doesn't this provide risk/reward for more levels of player than a long carry over water or OB?  This type of hole can still be quite pucker inducing for the better player who decides to be a bit too aggressive without being excessively penal for the average player who plays within his limitations.  Seems like a tougher design puzzle than simply building a do or die tough hole.  
« Last Edit: July 26, 2013, 07:59:58 PM by Jud T »
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Andy Troeger

Tom D.,
I'm surprised you don't think there are modern courses built in this fashion. I would say a fair number of Nicklaus designs are built for the better player to the point where they wouldn't be much fun for anyone over about a 12 handicap. Mayacama is really hard with a lot of forced carries. It likely matches PV in difficulty--it just isn't nearly as interesting. Granted, I don't think any other course is as interesting as PV. But many of Nicklaus' other courses are really dang hard.  Victoria National seems pretty obviously designed to cater to at least decent players, and Pikewood National was built for the owners essentially, but they are all players. The shortest set of tees is 6,900 yards long.

Patrick,
If you get the chance, get to Pikewood National in West Virginia. I expect you'd really enjoy it, and you certainly have the game to enjoy the challenge. Its tough.

Patrick_Mucci



First of all, Pine Valley is a lousy example for this exercise, because nobody develops courses these days to cater exclusively to handicaps of 12 and under.  

How about Mike Pascucci ?
Isn't Sebonack similar to PV in some ways.
Wide fairways, challenging greens, heroic carries  ?

Pine Valley remains relevant for most golfers, 100 years after it's creation.
While it's better suited for good strikers of the golf ball, I recently played two days with a 65 year old 16 handicap who played from the Senior tees and enjoyed himself tremendously.  He was certainly challenged by some of the holes, with # 5 and # 14 being the most challenging.
But, #'s 2, 3, 6, 7, 8, 10, 13, 15, 17 and 18 also presented pass/fail situations to him.


That is not 75% of the market, as you implied -- that's the upper 25% of the market.

I think that's what you infered, not what I implied.
What I stated is that the courses cited were not designed for the lower 10-25  % of the golfing world.

Didn't Mike Pascucci create Sebonack to be a stern test ?
Certainly it wasn't created for the bottom 10-25 % of the market.
Ditto Atlantic.
And yet, these courses were and remain a desirable challenge to almost every level of golfer.
So much so that mid to high handicappers paid substantial sums to join those clubs.


Most developers today would want to cater to at least the upper 75%, which would mean handicaps under 25.  

And those people aren't going to finish Pine Valley in four hours, even if they pick up on six holes.

At 25 a handicap, I'd probably agree, but handicaps in the mid-teen range have no problem playing PV in under 4 hours because they understand the drill/mandate at PV.  Playing in five (5) hours is not an option.  That's why you have to take a caddy.  In addition, your host is responsible to make sure that you complete play in 4 hours.  And, that message is conveyed quite clearly to the golfers prior to their rounds.  There is no deviating from that policy.
Fast play is more a function of the culture, and not a function of the challenge and hazards as presented by the architecture.


But, as I said, Pine Valley is a lousy example.  I think there are plenty of modern courses that are as testing as NGLA or Garden City.  
The modern courses might not have quite as many forced carries due to cross bunkers, but the difficulty of those hazards is somewhat overrated.

I don't see how you can say that.
Isn't that the essence of the thrill in golf ?  To see and meet a challenge.  
Especially a challenge that might be outside of your comfort zone.
Does anything get you outside of your comfort zone better than forced carries, almost irrespective of the minimum standard requirement.

You have a far more difficult challenge today, in trying to meet the needs of a broader spectrum of golfers, especially in the context of the "me" generation.

In addition, I have to believe that the formation of a club today, differs in nature from the formation of a club at the turn of the late 19th and early 20th century


The main reason modern courses don't have more cross-hazards is that it's hard to reconcile them with having 4-5 tees per hole ... the cross hazard is almost guaranteed to be right in someone's landing area, where they have no chance of carrying it.  


But, isn't that the purpose of a cross hazard, to make the golfer question whether or not they'll challenge it ?

Isn't a goal of a golfer, to aspire to be a better golfer ?
And doesn't rising to the challenges presented make one a better golfer, versus never trying to meet the challenges presented by the architect ?

NGLA has four (4) tees per hole and they don't seem to have a problem with "demand" features.


You can challenge that convention occasionally -- we did it with the 17th hole at Streamsong -- but it would be heavily criticized to do it repeatedly.

I could have sworn that you mandated challenges, to varying degrees, on #'s 2, 3, 4, 7, 8, 9, 12, 14, 17 and 18 at Streamsong.

With # 7 probably being the ultimate pass/fail test on the Blue course.

Streamsong, however, is a resort course.

I wonder, if it was a private club, close to Orlando, Tampa, Miami or Palm Beach, if you would have incorporated more architectural and playing "mandates" ?

« Last Edit: July 26, 2013, 09:17:45 PM by Patrick_Mucci »

Patrick_Mucci


Pat,

Aren't great greens and contour that provide for a difficult par/birdie, where an aggressive play can lead to a large number but a relatively straightforward bogie a better answer to the question?  

Jud T,

Aggressive play ?

When PGA Touring Pros, by far the best golfers in the world, hit less than 75 % of the greens in regulation, I'm not so sure that I can relate to the term "aggressive play" within the broad spectrum of amateur golfers, and how that "aggressive play" can lead to a large number due to greens with contour.


I'm thinking of great short 4's where short grass is the main hazard, i.e. Pac Dunes #6 or Kingsley #13.  

Short grass can be easily overcome with a putter or rescue club.
Just ask Neil Regan.


doesn't this provide risk/reward for more levels of player than a long carry over water or OB?  

Your insertion of the word "long" predisposes and slants the debate.
Certainly, # 6 at NGLA, at most 139 yards from an elevated tee and usually downwind, and # 2 at GCGC, 130 yards from grade don't require long carries, yet, there's a demand to meet the challenge presented, and that challenge isn't inconsequential.


This type of hole can still be quite pucker inducing for the better player who decides to be a bit too aggressive without being excessively penal for the average player who plays within his limitations.  

How so.
What intimidating difficulty is created on the tee by short grass at the green on a driver-wedge hole ?


Seems like a tougher design puzzle than simply building a do or die tough hole.

Why would you call # 17 at Pine Valley a do or die hole ?
Are you familiar with # 17 at Pine Valley ?

Ditto # 6 at NGLA and # 2 at GCGC
 
« Last Edit: July 26, 2013, 09:20:21 PM by Patrick_Mucci »

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0


Short grass can be easily overcome with a putter or rescue club.


OK, I'll meet you and Neal over the back of the 6th green at Pac Dunes.  Bring a rescue club, a bucket of balls and a large billfold.  Then we'll go double or nothing from the east side of 9 green at Kingsley.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2013, 09:26:01 PM by Jud T »
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Patrick_Mucci



Short grass can be easily overcome with a putter or rescue club.


OK, I'll meet you and Neal over the back of the 6th green at Pac Dunes.  Bring a rescue club, a bucket of balls and a large billfold.  Then we'll go double or nothing from the east side of 9 green at Kingsley.

Jud,

I'll just send Neil Regan ................. and a Brinks truck to bring home the loot.


Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
"Dr Mackenzie didn't have a "pass/fail" exam on his courses, there was always a way around trouble at the cost of an extra stroke or two."

Indeed. Didn't the good Doctor say a well designed course could be played with a putter? ;)

Then perhaps you can tell us how to play # 15 and # 17 at CPC with a putter.

And, while you're doing that, you can tell us how to get around trouble on those two holes.

We can discuss # 16 as well.
I'd like to see how that would be played with a putter.



The holes you reference may be the only Mackenzie holes I can recall where you have a forced carry, with 2 and 14 at the Valley Club are others.  In no case is the carry over 100 yards, so hardly the stringent demands of Pine Valley. 

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Hmmmm....
My first question would be " has the spectrum of golfers actually broadened?

Secondly, IMHO the "broad spectrum" will come back and continue to play a good, difficult, cross bunkered , deep bunkered golf course if they did not have to hit three woods into the par 4's.  I think higher handicap players feel as though they could make a 7 on holes like 10 at Riviera and enjoy playing it over and over because in their mind they feel as though they have a chance to score the next time they play. High handicappers love to hit short irons to greens We have to make guys comfortable with playing 6000 to 6200 yard golf courses even if we need to measure the scorecards as 6500 and place the markers at 6200.  You can always place a 7200 yard tee back there for those special outings etc.  Pass/fail will become extinct if it's main ingredient is length....
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Andrew Buck

  • Karma: +0/-0

Does anything get you outside of your comfort zone better than forced carries, almost irrespective of the minimum standard requirement.


Yes.  OB or lost ball potential on both sides of the fairway pushes my comfort zone 10X more than any carry requirement.  Unfortunately (for me) with many newer courses being real estate developments or cut through brush, it's a standard feature on many courses.  It seems PV obviously has this feature a lot as well, but I recall few times where my heart beat on a pass/fail approach with a short iron approach compared to the many pass/fail tee shots where it had to go straight.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2013, 11:34:24 PM by Andrew Buck »

Patrick_Mucci

"Dr Mackenzie didn't have a "pass/fail" exam on his courses, there was always a way around trouble at the cost of an extra stroke or two."

Indeed. Didn't the good Doctor say a well designed course could be played with a putter? ;)

Then perhaps you can tell us how to play # 15 and # 17 at CPC with a putter.

And, while you're doing that, you can tell us how to get around trouble on those two holes.

We can discuss # 16 as well.
I'd like to see how that would be played with a putter.



The holes you reference may be the only Mackenzie holes I can recall where you have a forced carry, with 2 and 14 at the Valley Club are others. 


The number of holes I cited is irrelevant.
The fact that I cited any, contradicts MacKenzie's own words by virtue of his actual designs, thus debunking David's post.


In no case is the carry over 100 yards, so hardly the stringent demands of Pine Valley. 

What are the stringent demands of Pine Valley ?

Start with # 17 and tell us what stringent demands are placed upon the golfer.


Andy Troeger

"Dr Mackenzie didn't have a "pass/fail" exam on his courses, there was always a way around trouble at the cost of an extra stroke or two."

Indeed. Didn't the good Doctor say a well designed course could be played with a putter? ;)

Then perhaps you can tell us how to play # 15 and # 17 at CPC with a putter.

And, while you're doing that, you can tell us how to get around trouble on those two holes.

We can discuss # 16 as well.
I'd like to see how that would be played with a putter.



The holes you reference may be the only Mackenzie holes I can recall where you have a forced carry, with 2 and 14 at the Valley Club are others.  In no case is the carry over 100 yards, so hardly the stringent demands of Pine Valley. 

There are a few forced carries at Pasatiempo as well. #18 is probably the most challenging.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
"Dr Mackenzie didn't have a "pass/fail" exam on his courses, there was always a way around trouble at the cost of an extra stroke or two."

Indeed. Didn't the good Doctor say a well designed course could be played with a putter? ;)

Then perhaps you can tell us how to play # 15 and # 17 at CPC with a putter.

And, while you're doing that, you can tell us how to get around trouble on those two holes.

We can discuss # 16 as well.
I'd like to see how that would be played with a putter.



The holes you reference may be the only Mackenzie holes I can recall where you have a forced carry, with 2 and 14 at the Valley Club are others.  In no case is the carry over 100 yards, so hardly the stringent demands of Pine Valley. 

There are a few forced carries at Pasatiempo as well. #18 is probably the most challenging.

Dr. MacKenzie did not like forced carries, but he wasn't crazy.  An architect would have to be crazy not to employ the barrancas at Pasatiempo, or the Pacific Ocean at Cypress Point, as a hazard.  Plus, we know that Marion Hollins had already insisted on the placement of the 16th hole at Cypress Point.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Patrick:

First of all, Pine Valley is a lousy example for this exercise, because nobody develops courses these days to cater exclusively to handicaps of 12 and under.  That is not 75% of the market, as you implied -- that's the upper 25% of the market.  Most developers today would want to cater to at least the upper 75%, which would mean handicaps under 25.  And those people aren't going to finish Pine Valley in four hours, even if they pick up on six holes.

But, as I said, Pine Valley is a lousy example.  I think there are plenty of modern courses that are as testing as NGLA or Garden City.  The modern courses might not have quite as many forced carries due to cross bunkers, but the difficulty of those hazards is somewhat overrated.

The main reason modern courses don't have more cross-hazards is that it's hard to reconcile them with having 4-5 tees per hole ... the cross hazard is almost guaranteed to be right in someone's landing area, where they have no chance of carrying it.  You can challenge that convention occasionally -- we did it with the 17th hole at Streamsong -- but it would be heavily criticized to do it repeatedly.

Andy:

See above.  I shouldn't have said "nobody" develops courses like that ... very few do.  And when someone builds a course like Pikewood National, notice that they don't have a bunch of forward tees.  [I haven't been there, but assume it is unplayable for the ladies.  It would be hard to convince me to build a course that was unplayable for women.]

Likewise, I assume Victoria National was mandated by the client to be the way it is, because it's the opposite of how Tom Fazio usually does things.  And I did think less of it, because it's so penal to anybody with a double-digit handicap.

Also, there are some modern architects [Greg Norman for sure, Jack Nicklaus sometimes] who seem not to understand how hard a course they're building, or else they think that's what the client wants.  I know that the nearest Nicklaus course to where I'm typing, The Bear, was a resort course that the developer INSISTED Jack make tougher because he wanted it to be the highest (slope) rated course in Michigan.  He got his wish ... and never paid back a penny of the principal on the loan to build it.




Patrick_Mucci

Tom Doak,

Forced carries are often a function of the topography.

# 5 and # 14 at PV being perfect examples, as are holes #' 15, 16 and17 at CPC.

Holes like # 's 8 12 and 13 at Sebonack also require forced carries.

Forced carries present a challenge and when done properly, a "thrilling" challenge.

Macdonald's "Short" par threes are a perfect example.

The approach could be described as benign in terms of length, but it's clearly a pass/fail test

Ditto the approach on #'s 12 and 17 at Pine Valley.

All of those approach shots don't require power or length, so why eliminate or devalue them.

What is wrong with presenting a golfer with a series of varying pass/fail tests ?

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
"The fact that I cited any, contradicts MacKenzie's own words by virtue of his actual designs, thus debunking David's post."

Pat -

There are exceptions to many, many rules, especially rules of thumb! ;)

DT

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Pat,

Clearly a P/F test which is dictated by the land and isn't too onerous is a reasonable choice.  Can you site some examples of penal situation involving OB or water which were  not dictated by the land and are the most elegant solution?
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
"Dr Mackenzie didn't have a "pass/fail" exam on his courses, there was always a way around trouble at the cost of an extra stroke or two."

Indeed. Didn't the good Doctor say a well designed course could be played with a putter? ;)

Then perhaps you can tell us how to play # 15 and # 17 at CPC with a putter.

And, while you're doing that, you can tell us how to get around trouble on those two holes.

We can discuss # 16 as well.
I'd like to see how that would be played with a putter.



The holes you reference may be the only Mackenzie holes I can recall where you have a forced carry, with 2 and 14 at the Valley Club are others. 


The number of holes I cited is irrelevant.
The fact that I cited any, contradicts MacKenzie's own words by virtue of his actual designs, thus debunking David's post.


In no case is the carry over 100 yards, so hardly the stringent demands of Pine Valley. 

What are the stringent demands of Pine Valley ?

Start with # 17 and tell us what stringent demands are placed upon the golfer.


I have never had the opportunity to play Pine Valley.  The hilarious Littler-Nelson match on Shell's WWG is as close as I've come to a tour. 

Why don't you let me know when it would be convenient for you to arrange a game for us so you can explain the course to me?

Thanks. 

Andy Troeger

Tom,
Depends on the lady, but I wouldn't necessary tell anyone who can't hit it at least 240 to seek out Pikewood--I do think it is a mistake not having a shorter set of tees. I don't enjoy that much golf course on a regular basis. I think the longest forced carries were about 150-160. The two par threes on the back and the 10th all required the ability to keep it in the air for awhile. The course is quite strategic for a good player, but it would beat up everybody else. I would say the same thing about Victoria National--if you can play the course will certainly make you think. But the penalty for bad misses is severe. I'm not going to put either of them in the league of Pine Valley by any means, but I think the goal was similar in the sense of designing courses to appeal to good golfers without a lot of regard for high handicappers. I wouldn't want every course to do that, but I appreciate and enjoy the challenge.