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Paul_Turner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tom Doak, Muirfield and Crystal Downs
« Reply #25 on: July 28, 2013, 09:48:16 AM »
I don't think the greens at Pacific Dunes are particularly "wild".  Not so different from Muirfield's set.
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tom Doak, Muirfield and Crystal Downs
« Reply #26 on: July 28, 2013, 09:54:38 AM »
I don't think the greens at Pacific Dunes are particularly "wild".  Not so different from Muirfield's set.

I think they are "wild" more in the sense of you can't get there from here, which means those ultra-wide fairways still require a precise tee shot. 

Paul_Turner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tom Doak, Muirfield and Crystal Downs
« Reply #27 on: July 28, 2013, 09:59:46 AM »
One thing that has to be pointed out regarding the bunkers is their evolution.  They were once much larger and much more sand faced.  Who know's what Tom's bunkers will look like in a century?
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Tom Doak, Muirfield and Crystal Downs
« Reply #28 on: July 28, 2013, 10:11:09 AM »
Paul hit it on the head while I was typing.  Here's what I was writing:

With regard to Ran's initial post, and Greg Tallman's, the simple answer is not so much that I've never had the right site to build something like Muirfield, but that I've never had a CLIENT who would want me do bunkering as dastardly as Muirfield's.  Mr. Keiser's view at Bandon was that Americans would not enjoy having to pitch out sideways from bunkers -- and he is probably right about that, in general -- so he limited David Kidd on the use of revetted bunkers, and made it clear to us that he preferred not to go that direction.  If he reversed course and said he wanted to build a course like Muirfield in Wisconsin, I'd love to try; but my guess is that's unlikely to happen.

Second, if you have bunkering as severe as Muirfield [or Royal County Down, to name another course that Ran likes a bit better], you are not going to combine that with over-the-top green contours.  It would all be too much.  So, I don't expect those courses to have the wild greens I otherwise enjoy.  But, since no one wants me to do bunkering that severe, my green contours sometimes make up for it in testing the golfer.

Third, no, The Renaissance Club did not emulate Muirfield directly, even though most people would find it quite restrained compared to my other courses.  [Indeed, the people from Scotland who have played it are generally surprised and pleased that it doesn't try to be dramatic, when half the property was fairly flat.  Unfortunately, the few who have played it and posted here, have hardly played any of my other courses to make the comparison.]  Certainly, though, the LAST thing one would do when building next door to one of the great courses of the world would be to try and mimic it too closely.  So, The Renaissance Club is not like Muirfield [and doesn't have a Redan hole either], Sebonack is not like National [and doesn't have a Redan hole either], Pacific Dunes is not like Bandon Dunes [but does have a Redan, partly because Bandon didn't], etc.  None of that was too hard to do, since the properties were all totally different than the neighboring course.

Fourth, the key to Muirfield's bunkering is the great craftsmanship of the sod wall features and the way that no two are alike.  That would be very very hard to pull off on a new course, because you don't build the sod walls when you are shaping and planting the course; you generally go back in during the grow-in and build those features.  Most of the sod wall work at The Renaissance Club was done by the maintenance crew there [including guys who'd worked at Gullane and Muirfield], but done when none of my guys or I was around ... we only left instructions, and made a couple of visits as the work progressed.  To rely on sod wall bunkering for the character of your design, you'd have to be ready to spend a lot more time on site at the very end of the project.

Last but not least, I do agree with Peter Pallotta.  In all our best work there comes a time to throw out the "intention" of the design and just roll with what's working.  Muirfield only got the way it is because it evolved, over the work of several designers, giving lots of time for those great bunker features to evolve and be added to.  Such evolution does not always result in better and better design -- indeed, usually not -- but on the rare occasion where it does, there's no modern design that can compete with that right out of the gate.  I do have the utmost respect for that.

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tom Doak, Muirfield and Crystal Downs
« Reply #29 on: July 28, 2013, 01:58:12 PM »
An interesting thread which, as Niall has suggested, seems to be driven by Ran's sad but persistent blindspot for the majesty of Muirfield.  When I first saw it, I was reminded of an analogy that has been used here before.

The World has many great wines, in a wide variety of styles.  In the New World, big, bold, powerful flavours feature in highly alcoholic bruisers.  In the Old Wold the great wines of Bordeaux and Burgundy are more restrained, less powerful but, perhaps, more elegant.  Many wine lovers learn to love wine through the exciting, dynamic, perhaps more obvious appeal of New World wines (Aussie Shiraz, Californian Cabernet) but, over time, learn to love and prefer the wines of Burgundy and Bordeaux.  Some very fine critics never do and continue to prefer the New World style, others appreciate both styles.

The only Doak course I have played is Renaissance, so I don't have a great knowledge of his work.  I loved it and will be excited to see the new holes when they have grown in.  As to Muirfield, it strikes me as the epitomy of subtlety.  Yes, it's heavily bunkered but that is not its only challenge.  It is always a mystery to me why critics who I think have otherwise impeccable taste fail to "get" Muirfield.  Ran and Sean Arble being two in particular that surprise me.  In Sean's case I understand that value plays a role and the severity of the course is not typical of those courses he loves.  In Ran's case I simply don't get it.  He seems to be looking for the drama of a big Australian Shiraz and failing to appreciate the beauty and subtlety of a great Claret.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Adam Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tom Doak, Muirfield and Crystal Downs
« Reply #30 on: July 28, 2013, 02:07:33 PM »
Mark - just be grateful no golf critic has the power of Robert Parker. Imagine the horror if Muirfield transformed into the golfing equivalent of Ch. Pavie!
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tom Doak, Muirfield and Crystal Downs
« Reply #31 on: July 28, 2013, 02:22:55 PM »
Mark - just be grateful no golf critic has the power of Robert Parker. Imagine the horror if Muirfield transformed into the golfing equivalent of Ch. Pavie!
With Tom Fazio in the role of Michel Rolland, perhaps?
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Paul_Turner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tom Doak, Muirfield and Crystal Downs
« Reply #32 on: July 28, 2013, 05:04:49 PM »
Actually Ran is somewhat complimentary towards Muirfield in this thread.

It does seem rare for a modern course to have subtle but varied greens and I wonder if relatively subtle greens like 4, 10 and 12 at Pacific Dunes get criticized?   (Greens with a degree of contour similar to Muirfield's).

And lets face it, greens in The Isles tend towards the subtle much more than the The States and Muirfield is a standard bearer, of sorts, for this style of architecture i.e. I'm not sure how you can love West Sussex et al and not at least like Muirfield  ;)  Perhaps it's just symptom of comparisons and ranking courses.

Take a look at the thread on  Tillinghast's Fenway....how many courses in The Isles have relentless high contour greens like that?  I can't think of any, other than perhaps the new courses by David Kidd.

« Last Edit: July 28, 2013, 05:09:54 PM by Paul_Turner »
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

Paul_Turner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tom Doak, Muirfield and Crystal Downs
« Reply #33 on: July 28, 2013, 07:24:02 PM »
In fairness to Ran, he's in pretty good company.  Read the old guys and nobody ever goes into raptures over Muirfield (perhaps Joshua Crane?).

It's only in the last 50 or so years of Open play that the course has cemented its reputation.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2013, 10:08:38 PM by Paul_Turner »
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tom Doak, Muirfield and Crystal Downs
« Reply #34 on: July 29, 2013, 10:34:31 AM »
Joshua Crane rated Muirfield as the best course in Britain. With such friends....

Bob