R&A solve the Portrush problem.

[Ryan Coles]

I don't see why the R&A gets criticised in this particular case.

In its present guise Portrush is not even close to being suitable for an Open in terms of space and practicality.

It is the Club who choose to make changes or not and the Club who should be criticised if they spoil some of the Course.

[Niall C]

Thank you Ryan, for a while there I thought I was a lone voice.

Niall

[Paul_Turner]

Ryan

why is RP " not even close to being suitable for an Open in terms of space and practicality. "  I think that's debatable with masses of space that the Valley course provides for tented village etc.  Surely more space available than several of the other Open venues:  Lytham and Liverpool.

Are any other options being presented to the club where the 16th is used as the final hole and the 17th/18th as the opening two? Or Tom's option of Valley 9/10 to finish.

Or is the two new holes option being presented as a "fait accompli" in order to get the Open. 

My prediction is that the R&A will get their own way (as has been the case at all the other Open venues) the Valley 5th/6th are scrapped and the Dunluce 17th/18th will become 1st/2nd on The Valley.

Why do only two architectural firms get to "divvy up" the work on Open rota courses?  Do architects have to be "approved" by thr R&A to get to the work?

[Ryan Coles]

Ryan

why is RP " not even close to being suitable for an Open in terms of space and practicality. "  I think that's debatable with masses of space that the Valley course provides for tented village etc.  Surely more space available than several of the other Open venues:  Lytham and Liverpool.

Are any other options being presented to the club where the 16th is used as the final hole and the 17th/18th as the opening two? Or Tom's option of Valley 9/10 to finish.

Or is the two new holes option being presented as a "fait accompli" in order to get the Open. 

My prediction is that the R&A will get their own way (as has been the case at all the other Open venues) the Valley 5th/6th are scrapped and the Dunluce 17th/18th will become 1st/2nd on The Valley.

Why do only two architectural firms get to "divvy up" the work on Open rota courses?  Do architects have to be "approved" by thr R&A to get to the work?

Paul

If you look at the 'sold out' maximum that attended the Irish open, then in its current guise, it isn't close to being fit to hold an Open. Car parking, stands, villages etc all have to be accommodated. This isn't really debatable, based on the Irish Open in scale to the Open, it is a fact.

As for the point about the R&A choosing specific architects, I said specifically on the issue of Portrush.

Portrush say they'd like the Open, the R&A say for that to happen we need x y & z. The Club can say yes or no. Any criticism should be directed at the Club if these changes are not sympathetic.

[Jeff Johnston]

Brian, its a matter of local pride. You only have to look at how the Irish Open was supported at the venue to see what it would mean to host the Open Championship again. Although I do agree that any permanent routing alteration to either course would be (to put it mildly) an unfortunate unintended consequence if coming to pass - especially if Paul is right that the 5th and 6th on the Valley could be permanently lost. I'd hope sense would prevail first.

Ryan, for the Irish Open the attendance limit was set at 25000 a day and the infrastructure was provided accordingly for that number. The Valley course was not used at all for playing purposes, and was barely touched for infrastructure purposes. I have no doubt the venue has capacity to take Open numbers if required.

[Sean_A]

I too am having a hard time figuring out how two new holes can be built behind the Dunluce's 6th without destroying the Valley's best couplet of holes, 5 & 6.  It would be an awful shame to lose these holes.  In fact, given how few 100% (or damn near) Colt links there are (is the Valley the only one?), it would be a real shame to do anything to the Valley for any reason. 

Ciao 

[Ryan Coles]

180,000 attended the 4 days at Lytham.

It seems Portrush fans want their cake and to eat it. An Open will not come without considerable compromise.

Ultimately it will be the Club's decision.

It I offer them a £1 million to put a flower bed on the 18th green in the shape of a giant cock and they accept, is it my fault or theirs?

For all its faults, the R&A knows how to stage an Open Championship.

[Paul_Turner]

Ryan

My question regarding:

"If you look at the 'sold out' maximum that attended the Irish open, then in its current guise, it isn't close to being fit to hold an Open. Car parking, stands, villages etc all have to be accommodated. This isn't really debatable, based on the Irish Open in scale to the Open, it is a fact.."

How much of this resolved with abandoning 17/18th with replacing with two new holes?  You get easier access to the tented village, from the road but that's about it.

[Sean_A]

Paul

Where can a tented village be located on the Valley?  It would certainly be an awkward affair given the lack of open space. 

Ciao

[Tony_Muldoon]

Of course RP is a great course but so are lots of other links courses that are not on the Open Rota.

The clamour is not really because of the course itself, just that people would love to see the event in Ireland. If Portrush was in Fife, Ayrshire, Merseyside or Kent, I suspect there wouldn't be such a clamour.

Ryan have you actually played Portrush?  Few links courses are it’s equal, it’s always top 10 in GB&NI and you can’t say that about all the current courses on the Open Rota.  Portrush is generally agreed to be top 20 in the world and by definition “lots” of other courses aren’t

If you look at the 'sold out' maximum that attended the Irish open, then in its current guise, it isn't close to being fit to hold an Open. Car parking, stands, villages etc all have to be accommodated. This isn't really debatable, based on the Irish Open in scale to the Open, it is a fact.

 

This is just wrong as I stated in the post that I started this thread with.

 http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sport/golf/irishopen/irish-open-portrush-passes-its-biggest-test-28767200.html

Portrush attracted and coped withmore visitors than Turnberry did for the Open and the gates were still open for more.  NO one is saying that it’s ‘Open ready’ but to say it isn’t close is demonstrably nonsense.



I detect a real anti Portrush bias from you. Why?

[Niall C]

Tony

No doubt Ryan will speak for himself but it seems to me he's pointing out the obvious which is the club won't do anything they don't want to do, therefore if they do something you think wrong (ie. changing holes etc) then the club is to blame, is it not ?

Niall

[Tony_Muldoon]

Niall here’s the ridiculous example Ryan posited

It seems Portrush fans want their cake and to eat it. An Open will not come without considerable compromise.

Ultimately it will be the Club's decision.

It I offer them a £1 million to put a flower bed on the 18th green in the shape of a giant cock and they accept, is it my fault or theirs?

For all its faults, the R&A knows how to stage an Open Championship.

To any sane person the answer is surely  both parties are to blame one for being a cock and the other for going along with this.

So yes Portrush will have to accept their share of the blame if they go along with this.
As I state above I’m against changes to the Valley course although I can’t profess much love for 17 and 18 on Dunluce.  But I won’t’ be making things up and trying to diminish the stature of the Course as a part of making those arguments – if that indeed is my objective.

Can’t you see the R&A are culpable in e.g. insisting all course have the same minimum length which has come about because they dropped the hot ball!  Yes Portrush have to decide if they are going to go along with the dictats of the R&A, who act not openly but by sending out signals that two firms of Architect’s have what it takes to please them.  (and that’s my polite version of it).


PS I’ve said it before I would love to see The Open at Portrush, I love the Course , the area and the people.  For all those reasons I could see it as one of the very best Open venue’s.   See it’s not that hard to admit bias is it?

[Ally Mcintosh]

Tony

No doubt Ryan will speak for himself but it seems to me he's pointing out the obvious which is the club won't do anything they don't want to do, therefore if they do something you think wrong (ie. changing holes etc) then the club is to blame, is it not ?

Niall

Perhaps, perhaps not. Depends if they are scared that if they say "no", they might not only not get The Open but other R&A events that are necessary to keep the club in the public spotlight and thus ensure future revenue.

[Mark Chaplin]

Brian Kent County Council say the Open brings £90m of economic benefit to Kent, thats why people want the Open, if Sandwich voted against lady members there would be considerable political pressure to find another local solution, despite today's news.

[Ryan Coles]

Of course RP is a great course but so are lots of other links courses that are not on the Open Rota.

The clamour is not really because of the course itself, just that people would love to see the event in Ireland. If Portrush was in Fife, Ayrshire, Merseyside or Kent, I suspect there wouldn't be such a clamour.

Ryan have you actually played Portrush?  Few links courses are it’s equal, it’s always top 10 in GB&NI and you can’t say that about all the current courses on the Open Rota.  Portrush is generally agreed to be top 20 in the world and by definition “lots” of other courses aren’t

If you look at the 'sold out' maximum that attended the Irish open, then in its current guise, it isn't close to being fit to hold an Open. Car parking, stands, villages etc all have to be accommodated. This isn't really debatable, based on the Irish Open in scale to the Open, it is a fact.

 

This is just wrong as I stated in the post that I started this thread with.

 http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sport/golf/irishopen/irish-open-portrush-passes-its-biggest-test-28767200.html

Portrush attracted and coped withmore visitors than Turnberry did for the Open and the gates were still open for more.  NO one is saying that it’s ‘Open ready’ but to say it isn’t close is demonstrably nonsense.



I detect a real anti Portrush bias from you. Why?

Tony

Haven't had the pleasure of Portrush, but I'm sure its a great course and having been underwhelmed by both Hoylake and Lytham I am in little doubt that the Course is better than many on the current rota.

In terms of bias, I've spoken up in this thread as I think there is an anti-R&A bias. Justified in many respects such as technology, equality, rules, the Old Course etc, but I give them a lot of credit for how the run the Open. I think they do a great job of it.

Therefore all the R&A bashing around changes to the Courses etc is not justified. The blame should lay with the decision maker, i.e. the  Club.

I suspect when the R&A say to Muirfield, no Lady Members, no Open, Muirfield will say no Open.

I watched the Irish Open carefully and it was great, but it was packed, with the number they had. I'd be surprised if they went back to Turnberry as often due to the disappointing crowds.

I would be sad if there was a limit on numbers. The Open has always been open in more ways than one and the fact that anyone could turn up and get in was part of the appeal for me.

Great Course doesn't equal Great Open venue. Why not County Down or Saunton? If Dawson says there are a lot of obstacles to be overcome for Portrush to host, in terms of the Open, I believe him.

[Jeff Johnston]

Ryan, of course the club is the ultimate decision-maker (or maybe more accurately, consent-giver), but folks (particularly those who have been on the ground over both courses at RPGC) are entitled to their view on the sense (or otherwise) of what may be in the R&A's suggestion pipeline.

To the extent the R&A would wish to use 17 & 18 Dunluce for tented village purposes, I can understand that given logistics / proximity to road / main entrance - it also gives the option to use the adjoining 1&2 on the Valley as well for tents, hostility etc should that be needed. I have more difficulty in understanding why the Valley course could not provide the required two additional holes without much adjustment, either on as 'as is' basis (5/6 and 9/10 have both been mentioned), or, if more length is required, by a creative solution within the existing course infrastructure such as Jamie Pyper's interesting proposed additional holes above. Like Sean and others, I have difficulty seeing how two new holes over to the right of Dunluce 6, coming back to Dunluce 7 tee, would work - particularly in the context of the press suggestion that Valley 5 &6 would not be affected. I think many - RPGC members, GCA.com'ers and otherwise - would be very sad if either course was permanently altered for these (or any) purposes.

Jamie, your suggestion of those two 'new' holes is growing on me - and would get punters down into a part of the property giving significant room for spectator movement, bars, food etc. Any insight from the AGM? Per press reports the elephant in the room was largely ignored by the sound of things.

Mark C, money obviously is a factor but isnt the be-all and end-all. I think most Irish (and especially northern) golf fans (and a lot of the public as a whole) would be delighted to see the event back at RPGC for its own sake.

[Niall C]

Does anyone know for certain what the R&A propose, or indeed what the club are willing to go along with ? Seems to me that a lot of folk are getting their retaliation in first, to use a football expression.

Niall

[Jeff Johnston]

PS Ryan, if you think Portrush doesnt have the scope to hold an Open, then I struggle to see how you think RCD would be better placed (and I love the place BTW). Saunton would be a different matter - no probs there I'd say.

Niall, I think that's part of the problem - there are rumours of plans while things are still at the (necessarily) confidential stage and folk are nervous as to what may be in the offing.

[Tom_Doak]

Does anyone know for certain what the R&A propose, or indeed what the club are willing to go along with ? Seems to me that a lot of folk are getting their retaliation in first, to use a football expression.

Niall

Niall:

To be fair, given the R&A's recent works at St. Andrews, they have demonstrated that if you don't retaliate in advance, you don't get to say anything.

There will not be ANY public revelation of what the R & A propose, because they are still pretending they're not the ones making the proposals.  Some people even believe them.  However, it's clear as the last few posts have pointed out, they are dangling the big carrot of the Open, and they are not afraid to attach many conditions to getting the carrot.

[Niall C]

Tom

I won't pretend I have first hand knowledge of how it works but from what I've heard second hand its less "take it or leave it" than some have suggested on here. To be sure the R&A will be doing the running in terms of proposing any changes after all they are looking for the course/clubhouse etc to meet their requirements but I think in most instances there is a pretty constructive dialogue between the R&A, the club and the consulting architect.

Lets bear in mind also that the club gets free advice from a top architect and that the R&A foot the bill for any agreed changes. At the end of the day neither side needs the other; if they agree they do it to each others mutual benefit.

Niall

[Garland Bayley]

...
Portrush say they'd like the Open, the R&A say for that to happen we need x y & z. The Club can say yes or no. Any criticism should be directed at the Club if these changes are not sympathetic.

Sometimes these organizations can drop x, or x and y. For example, the USGA dropped some of its usual requirements to hold its open at Merion. It just seems to me that these organizations make a lot of money from the broadcast rights, so they don't have to be so demanding on the option of buying things in a tent village that can be offered online and order online from devices many attendees carry in their pockets. The don't have to be so demanding on the size of the crowd that can be handled. Just limit the tickets.

The criticism of the club would be the degree they acquiesce to unnecessary demands.

[Adrian_Stiff]

I have never quite understood this "YOU CANT TOUCH IT" attitude. Almost every golf course has changed over time often with complete new holes. There is nto much greatness in Portrush's 17 & 18th, perhaps even an unexciting ending. If two holes can be found better, why not. If two composite holes from Valley make it work, why not. Is Hoylake ruined because they start from 17? Only in the eyes of 1%. Would Hoylake be better if the Open was off the normal first? Of course. The ultimate call is, in order to have an OPEN you have to tick the vast number of corporate and infrastructure boxes. Everything today is about ticking boxes and if you don't want to tick them then you fail to qualify. I am sure Portrush know this even a few on GCA don't.
Saunton is no chance by the way. It can't tick enough boxes.

[Tony_Muldoon]

Lets bear in mind also that the club gets free advice from a top architect and that the R&A foot the bill for any agreed changes. At the end of the day neither side needs the other; if they agree they do it to each others mutual benefit.

Niall

Niall, Are you sure about that?

Here's what was on the Club notice board in 2008.




Apparently those changes were not enough.


There was a lovely glossy presentation lying around in the bar at Porthcawl and Deal has their reports too.  

I do hope the R&A  are getting a nice discount employing MacKenzie and Ebert all over the country.

[Niall C]

Tony

I'm not sure of anything. As I said in the earlier post I've got no first hand experience. Having said that, I'm not sure what you're suggesting with your post or exactly what your beef is with MacKenzie & Ebert.

BTW, I saw something similar at Troon a few years back and from what I understand of what’s happening there, the proposals were part of a consultation exercise. Presumably that is what they were doing at Portrush and the others you mentioned ?

Niall
 

[Howard Riefs]

2019 Open at Portrush looks likely, reports Jeff Rude:

“I believe it’s a done deal,” one source close to the situation said. “I think I’s have been dotted and T’s crossed except for when will it be held there and how often.”

http://golfweek.com/news/2014/may/08/royal-portrush-2019-open-championship-sources/