R&A solve the Portrush problem.

[Ryan Coles]

Of course RP is a great course but so are lots of other links courses that are not on the Open Rota.

The clamour is not really because of the course itself, just that people would love to see the event in Ireland. If Portrush was in Fife, Ayrshire, Merseyside or Kent, I suspect there wouldn't be such a clamour.

[Sean_A]

If the R&A really wants the champion of their annual Open tournament to be The Champion (except in Mexico and the USA), they should check their cojones and ask vis a vis their venues "Why not Japan?  Or Australia?  Or China?  Or Argentina?  Or Canada? or Zimbabwe?  Or even Portmarnock?  Or France, or New Zealand, or India, or Madagascar........?

Why Northern Ireland?  Nice place, a few really nice golf courses, most people there speak a dialect of English.  Part of the "UK of GB and NI."  Otherwise?  Reach out to the rest of the world?  No.  Show some sort of vision of the future?  No.

Put it at Portrush again and it will forever be the "Bristish Open" and not "The Open."  If it ever was .....

Rich

Rihc

Last I checked, those countries already have national opens.  Its a daft (still shaking my head at the suggestion  ) idea to move money and prestige (which is mo money) away from your mates' clubs.  And to what end should The Open be played in Antartica?  The Open refers to who can play, not where its played.   

If it can't be Porthcawl then I am all in favour of Portrush.

Ciao

[Mark Chaplin]

Ryan I think the same could be said of Royal Porthcawl, another fine course that probably bats above it's station due to being in Wales rather than England or Scotland.

[Niall C]

Well, should it happen, mark me down as being in favour of The Open returning to the Royal Portrush Golf Club. It was last there in 1951 and since that time golfers from N.I. have made a significant and extended contribution to the game of golf and the course is terrific.  I could imagine a few alterations may be required to the course both for the infrastructure that is needed to host this major championship in the modern era, and due to tighten up the test for the best golfers in thew world, but this should not rule the course out as a possible host venue.

Scott

Scott

When you say tighten up the course..........

Niall

[Tony_Muldoon]

Portrush to make changes to attract The Open?


http://www.irishgolfdesk.com/news-files/2014/4/24/no-plans-for-open-talk-at-royal-portrush-agm

Would be sad to see anything that altered the marvellous 5th and 6th on the Valley Course


From Sean’s tour
“

For me, the course really comes alive on the 5th and 6th.  These are located in their own holler and are a magnificent pair of holes.  They total 573 yards, yet to cover them in the combined par of 7 shots is good going.  I don't really know how to play the 5th.  The bunkers are reachable with the prevailing tailwind, but one still feels as though he wants to get as close to the bunkers as is possible.  Besides the troubling fairway bunkers, the green site is a thing of beauty.  Extending from the back of the right bunker is a ridge leading to the green which is the very narrow kick in path.  The green falls away right and left. If it wasn't for the next hole, this may be the most precision oriented approach on the entire 36 holes. 
 

Approaching from the right.


Approaching from the middle.  Coming in from the left is DEAD.


After the head scratchingly brilliant 5th we turn back into the wind for a monster par 3.  I thought the approach on the previous hole was tough, but at 237 yards this hole makes the previous one look a doddle.  Nothing short of a laser guided (for me - driver) will find this green.  I complained that there were no realistically reachable par 4s on the course, but Tony M pointed out there was, only its a par 3.  I didn't like the idea of no bailout while playing the hole, but now I am not sure there should be some easy option left.

“

All speculation of course, but there’s no s…..

[Adam Lawrence]

I didn't read that report as suggesting the Valley holes would be affected, but that the two new holes would be in the area between them and the main course. But all very, very speculative. Course wise, I believe the main issue with Portrush is the lack of space for grandstands round the 18th.

[Tony_Muldoon]

I didn't read that report as suggesting the Valley holes would be affected, but that the two new holes would be in the area between them and the main course. But all very, very speculative. Course wise, I believe the main issue with Portrush is the lack of space for grandstands round the 18th.

Ok I reacted to the clumsy visual in the article.

From Google earth the longest holes  I can see would be approx. 450 yards down hill and 350 back up with no room for doglegs.  The fall appears to be about 6m which surprises me as I though it was a lot more.

[Garland Bayley]

Why can't 17 and 18 become 1 and 2 so they can finish at 16?

Worked at Liverpool didn't it?
Worked at Sebonack didn't it?

[Ronald Montesano]

At Sebonack, they finished at #18. They started on #2 and played #1 as the #10 hole, I believe. Your point is taken, though...no need to play the holes as stipulated.

[Jamie Pyper]

As a member of Portrush, I've spent a lot time thinking and dreaming as to how the course could be easily modified to fit the R&A specs to accommodate a return Open. The Dunluce course in its current form is a tried and proven championship venue, proven again with the recent Irish Open success handling the largest crowds of any European tour event ever. This summer the young bombers will test it again when it hosts the British Amateur. That being said, a few modest changes could make it as challenging as any open venue without giving up the typical sell off of reducing par 5's to 4's and a par of 70. Portrush has the capacity to host as long and tough a course as the R&A desires without restricting the number of patrons, a unique situation for the R&A accountants to consider.

From what I can speculate, Peter Dawson and company want to take the current #17 and #18 out of play to accommodate the merchandise and hospitality "tent" city. Lets assume thats the case which would make current # 16 a great finishing hole with plenty of room for grandstands.  Add one extra tee block and its as tough an open finisher as you'll ever see. I agree with Tony's comments that the R&A would be crazy to alter the present classic Valley holes # 4 and #5 just for a one off four-day tournament, but I wouldn't put it past them. So here's just one simple solution to make up losing 1050 yards of the existing # 17 and # 18 without undue damage to two great Valley holes.

Play the Dunluce course in order from # 1 through #13. After #13, walk down the hill 120 yards to the existing Valley # 6 tee, play towards the fairway bunker on # 14 as a slight dogleg left to the existing Valley # 13 green. Add a few strategic fairways bunkers and berms if desired, and you have a very strong par 5 of 585 yards. If the R &A wants more yardage, there's plenty of room to add a new tee to the right and behind the existing Valley # 6 tee to make this hole as long as they desire.

Depending on what par option and length the R&A desire for the open championship, the next hole could play as another par 5 from any yardage between 550 to 640 yards, (it is downwind), or as a par 4 of 480 to 515 yards. The longer version tees would be just behind the existing Valley # 12 tees towards the centre of the existing Valley # 3 fairway and then down to the existing # 3 green. The par 4 version could play from the existing front tees of # 3 or a new tee block closer to # 12 green. With both of these hole options, adding a few key strategic bunkers and contours if necessary requires little expense and would remain to enhance the original Valley holes after the hoopla of the open is over.

After putting out on the Valley # 3 green, players would walk back up the hill to the tee at the Par 3 Calamity and a great three hole finish.

This is just one economical suggestion of many I've considered, but thought I'd throw it out there for discussion.

 
 

[Jamie Pyper]

Sorry for the hole mixup on my description from my last post. Now I've really confused everyone. The second proposed hole was to play down the existing Valley # 4 ,not # 3. Sorry for the confusion.

[Garland Bayley]

I guess I don't know why the hospitality and tents can't be on the valley course holes. These organizations are overstepping their bounds by doing modifications to TOC and the like. They should pay more attention to preserving the game instead of requiring changes to golf courses.

I want to play more golf and walk less. Do something about the ball. Do not change par on championship courses because you have no backbone for doing your real job!

[Bill_McBride]

Portrush to make changes to attract The Open?


http://www.irishgolfdesk.com/news-files/2014/4/24/no-plans-for-open-talk-at-royal-portrush-agm

Would be sad to see anything that altered the marvellous 5th and 6th on the Valley Course


From Sean’s tour
“

For me, the course really comes alive on the 5th and 6th.  These are located in their own holler and are a magnificent pair of holes.  They total 573 yards, yet to cover them in the combined par of 7 shots is good going.  I don't really know how to play the 5th.  The bunkers are reachable with the prevailing tailwind, but one still feels as though he wants to get as close to the bunkers as is possible.  Besides the troubling fairway bunkers, the green site is a thing of beauty.  Extending from the back of the right bunker is a ridge leading to the green which is the very narrow kick in path.  The green falls away right and left. If it wasn't for the next hole, this may be the most precision oriented approach on the entire 36 holes. 
 

Approaching from the right.


Approaching from the middle.  Coming in from the left is DEAD.


After the head scratchingly brilliant 5th we turn back into the wind for a monster par 3.  I thought the approach on the previous hole was tough, but at 237 yards this hole makes the previous one look a doddle.  Nothing short of a laser guided (for me - driver) will find this green.  I complained that there were no realistically reachable par 4s on the course, but Tony M pointed out there was, only its a par 3.  I didn't like the idea of no bailout while playing the hole, but now I am not sure there should be some easy option left.

“

All speculation of course, but there’s no s…..

When I played the Valley in 2007 I thought I had found the Fountain of Youth!   Parred 1-5, lipped out a couple of birdie putts, hit all the greens.

#6 is indeed a ball buster.   Made a 6, down to earth!

I really enjoyed the Valley, truly one of the courses you could play forever.  Great wild terrain and super green sites.  Colt?

[Tom_Doak]

Bill:

Yes, the Valley course is Colt's, too, done at the same time as Dunluce.  It might be the most underrated course in the UK, at least until the new Confidential Guide comes out.

Here's a suggestion:

Keep Dunluce 1-16.

Put the tented village on 17 & 18, and play the Valley holes 9 & 10 to finish instead, possibly with further back tees.  They are both terrific holes and you could get a million people around the 10th for the big finish.  Yes, it's an open jaw routing  but the tenth green is actually not that far from the clubhouse.

[Jamie Pyper]

Bill:

Yes, the Valley course is Colt's, too, done at the same time as Dunluce.  It might be the most underrated course in the UK, at least until the new Confidential Guide comes out.

Here's a suggestion:

Keep Dunluce 1-16.

Put the tented village on 17 & 18, and play the Valley holes 9 & 10 to finish instead, possibly with further back tees.  They are both terrific holes and you could get a million people around the 10th for the big finish.  Yes, it's an open jaw routing  but the tenth green is actually not that far from the clubhouse.

Tom;
Good suggestion. There's a natural high point about 80 yards in front of # 8 green to accommodate the back tee for #9 and #10 Valley is one of my favourite holes on the entire property.

[Niall C]

yippee, another chance to bash the R&A. 

Jamie

Never been to your course so thanks for the local input, much appreciated.

You have the local knowledge so perhaps you can advise why you think that in creating two new holes, they would need to do away with existing holes ? Also, does anyone know if Martin Hawtree or anyone else is giving the R&A professional advice, and indeed have the club taken professional advice to help their case (I assume that the club actually want the Open ?).

Tom D and other gca's

The talk is of the club hosting the 2019 Open so assuming they get on site this coming winter to build the two new holes (assuming they are required), is their enough time to have the new holes in tip top shape such that they play the same as the existing ?

Niall

[Jamie Pyper]

yippee, another chance to bash the R&A. 

Jamie

Never been to your course so thanks for the local input, much appreciated.

You have the local knowledge so perhaps you can advise why you think that in creating two new holes, they would need to do away with existing holes ? Also, does anyone know if Martin Hawtree or anyone else is giving the R&A professional advice, and indeed have the club taken professional advice to help their case (I assume that the club actually want the Open ?).

Tom D and other gca's

The talk is of the club hosting the 2019 Open so assuming they get on site this coming winter to build the two new holes (assuming they are required), is their enough time to have the new holes in tip top shape such that they play the same as the existing ?

Niall

Niall;
I understand that the GCA team of Tom Mackenzie and Martin Ebert are now preparing plans specifically related to creating two new holes from Dunluce # 6 tee area down to behind Valley # 6 green and a returning hole up to the area adjacent to Dunluce # 8 green as mentioned earlier in this thread. MacKenzie and Ebert seem to be the R&A favourites for Open venues. 

As to whether or not two new holes need to be created is a good question, specifically ones that will forever alter two classic existing holes.  This all could be a hypothetical exercise until a firm announcement is made on the 2019 site. 

[Jeff Johnston]

FWIW Tom's suggestion of 9/10 Valley is a sneaky masterstroke IMO. Two v good - can I say old fashioned? - holes and quite different to most other stuff on the rota. As a 17th, Valley 9 also has scope to be a wicked risk/reward short par 4.

[Sean_A]

Do folks think 10 could be a bit of an issue because of the great angle to approach the green from 9 fairway?  I realize the fairway is cut off, but the 10th fairway is quite narrow where the flat bellies drive and bounces could lead tee shots anywhere.  If someone is looking to lay-up, the 9th fairway is the place to be.  The angle is far better and there is no blindness from there.  I also think #9 would be quite an easy lay-up-wedge-birdie hole.  

I personally think #s 5 & 6 working in after the 13th work better, would be more interesting holes and require less fuss in terms of people movement.  I don't think the R&A would consider this as an option mainly because of the overall yardage implications.  Losing a net 400+ yards would mean the course comes in under well under 7000 yards (unless new tees have increased the champ length) and there is no way the R&A will do that.  Mind you, there isn't a true par 5 (nor any need to create one with silly way back tees) on that course for flat bellies so par could legitimately be 67 (13 par 4s and 5 par 3s) and it would be a difficult course, but with some good birdie opportunities.

Ciao

[Tony_Muldoon]

Found an old Paul Turner thread and hily Picutures are still avaible

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,36113.0.html



Firstly here's his take on 5 and 6. The final picture shows them both and the land that that McKenzie and Ebert are suggesting new holes on (still looks narrow).

One of the best holes, the 6th a 240 yd par 3.  You can use that mound to chase the ball on, but the trap is pretty severe if you pull the shot slightly.   Good use of a single pot bunker:











5 and 6th from the top of the big dune

[Tony_Muldoon]

From the same thread 9&10.


The 9th, a short par4,  is again without traps and it's a corker, but the pics are way overexposed:




10th is the best hole on the course.  A real tumbling par 5 with a dramatic tee shot from a high dune over rough country ( somehow I missed this photo!).  Anyway these are from further up and you can see the blind approach to the green nestled in the dunes.  Perhaps Colt's best par 5?  You might recognize this hole from the first few pages of The Confidential Guide.





Looking back down the 10th, get a better idea of the 9th.


McKenzie and Ebert make a living (at least in part) telling great old clubs they need to be X yards long if they want to be taken seriously by the R&A.   I can check but in 2008 it was something like 7250 and I believe it's 7300 now.  So don't expect them to suggest a shorter course.

[Niall C]

Jamie

Thanks for that but in building 2 new holes the way you suggest, will it mean losing any holes in the sense that they would need to use land already used for a golf hole ? I appreciate that if you go to the trouble of building two new holes the conventional thing to do would be to abandon two of the original holes either that or stop using the new holes after the Open.

Tony

Thanks for bringing up Pauls earlier thread, looks fantastic. BTW, I've had a look at what Martin Ebert is doing down at Troon and there is a lot more going on than just adding length, indeed not sure how much length is being added if any.

Niall

[Paul_Turner]

I was there last week and had a bad feeling that the R&A would start mucking around with courses.    

I can't picture see how they could squeeze in two extra holes in that area without eliminating the Valley's great 5th and 6th.  It's quite a severe drop down into that area and the two "new" holes would likely be more severe than the rest of the Dunluce course which is an easy walk.

Tom's suggestion of finishing 9th/10th Valley is the best idea.

[Tony_Muldoon]

I believe they have introduced fairway irrgiation nthe last few years, so we'll never see it a brown as Paul's pics again.  However it does maker it easier to maintain any 'borrowed' holes to match the main 16.


This would be a first where complete holes are potentially being borrowed from an adjacent course to hold The Open?  Adopt that principle and the R&A have solved the problem of 9 & 10 on The Old Course.

[Thomas Dai]

This would be a first where complete holes are potentially being borrowed from an adjacent course to hold The Open?  Adopt that principle and the R&A have solved the problem of 9 & 10 on The Old Course.

Shouldn't just be 9 & 10 at TOC for The Open. Start on TOC 1, use 11, and finish 16, 17 & 18. Use various holes from the Eden, New and Jubilee to make up an 18-hole 'Open' course. Now where's the 'phone number of whoever's going to take over from Mr Dawson.
atb