Radley Run

[Michael Dugger]

One of my good buddies grew up playing Radley Run and continues to claim that it is a great tract.  After a little bit of looking into I found out that it was designed in the 60's by Alfred Tull.  Just yesterday a Tull course was featured on the AOTD.  I was wondering if anyone knows anything about this course, and Tull in general.  I assume he was operating around the same time as Trent Jones Sr., is there anything significant to note about this guy?  Are there any 'Alfred Tull hidden gems' out there somewhere?

[TEPaul]

Radley Run is OK, I guess, some odd holes, I think, but I wouldn't hold that against Alfred Tull.

He probably practiced for over fifty years and now that I think about it was one of those that completely spanned the two eras working in architecture from probably 1920 until around 1970--that's not as long as RTJ but not far off--particularly since he was about ten years older than RTJ.

But his early bio is interesting. He surpervised for Travis, Tillinghast and Dev Emmet and went into partnership with Emmet in the 1920s in the firm of Emmet, Emmet & Tull. In case you're wondering who the other Emmet was in the company, nominally it was Emmet's son but in actuality it was Dev's hat!  

So something interesting must have rubbed off from all that onto Alfred Tull. I don't really know Canoe Brook (N) but I think that's a good Tull course! I think it's in North Jersey so maybe Pat Mucci can critique it although it looks like it's had plenty of redesign.

[Markep]

I am a member at Canoe Brook, and whereas I do think that the North is a very good course (usually ranked around 10th in NJ), it has undergone substantial revision from its original design. Walter Travis is credited with the original design, but then I have also heard that HS Colt was involved and I am not sure who did which course, as we also have a South course. I am far from the club's historian, so I can't vouch for 100% accuracy, but I shall try my best, but I do think Travis was the original North designer and that his work was completed around 1920 (+/- 6 years ?).

The first major revision occurred in the '50's when the Short Hills mall was constructed, perhaps Tull was involved in the work at this point in time. Prior to the existence of the mall, Prudential owned a large chunk of land that bordered Canoe Brook and they wished to sell it to the mall developers. The problem was that the golf course occupied land that would pair ideally with Prudential's land, whereas Pru also owned some land adjacent to another side of the course that would not be suitable for the mall. Pru and Canoe Brook worked out a swap in which around 4 holes worth of land were swapped between Pru and CB. Thus, we lost 4 holes where the mall is now, and re-gained them in another spot. Obviously, this required extensive new work, and if Tull is indeed the man who did the work then I give him credit for having done so in a manner which was fairly well in keeping with the rest of the course.

In sum, whoever it was that grafted the transplanted holes onto CB did a pretty good job. If it was Tull, it sounds like maybe it was some of his better work.

Radley Run is OK, I guess, some odd holes, I think, but I wouldn't hold that against Alfred Tull.

He probably practiced for over fifty years and now that I think about it was one of those that completely spanned the two eras working in architecture from probably 1920 until around 1970--that's not as long as RTJ but not far off--particularly since he was about ten years older than RTJ.

But his early bio is interesting. He surpervised for Travis, Tillinghast and Dev Emmet and went into partnership with Emmet in the 1920s in the firm of Emmet, Emmet & Tull. In case you're wondering who the other Emmet was in the company, nominally it was Emmet's son but in actuality it was Dev's hat!  

So something interesting must have rubbed off from all that onto Alfred Tull. I don't really know Canoe Brook (N) but I think that's a good Tull course! I think it's in North Jersey so maybe Pat Mucci can critique it although it looks like it's had plenty of redesign.

[TEPaul]

Markep:

According to C&W the north course was orginally designed by Tull and the south course was originally done by Colt and Alison.

Sometime C&W get there attribution from the club itself so there can be some misinformation, I suppose. Both courses had a number of others work on them at some point for something including Travis on the south course (according to C&W).

[Mike_Cirba]

Despite an early run with the flamboyant and artistic Dev Emmett, Alfred Tull seemed to be made of more unimaginative, if adequate stuff.  

I think we run the risk here of lauding every dead architect, to the point where any course designed by someone who is no longer with us is somehow a "classic".

I've played a number of Tull's designs, and probably the best description of his work is "functional".  

If we are to start a complimentary thread on Tull, we should probably also start ones on Edmund Ault, Billy Bill Jr., Joe Roseman, William Gordon, Edward Packard, Joseph Simmons, and a host of other men who built reasonable golf courses that failed to inspire, nonetheless.

Nothing against any of the gentlemen mentioned, but I think we should be careful to not lump their work into some broad category that ultimately diminishes the best designs of the classic period.  

[Markep]

TE,
 I am fairly certain that Tull was not the original designer for CB North, given that the course was completed prior to 1920 or so. This would have been far too early for him to have been the primary designer. At this point in his career, my understanding was that he was working for the more well regarded, older gentlemen already mentioned. It would make sense that if he worked with Travis on the original course, then the club would consider him to do the "graft" in the '50's when Travis was no longer around and Tull was on his own. Next time I go over to the club I will look at some of the exhibits and report back what they have to say, there are some nice drawings of the original routings.

Also, what is C&W ?

In terms of others who have worked on the course, you mentioned Colt and Alison for the South and that sounds right, also Rees Jones did some re-working of tees, greens and bunkers on both courses about 7 years ago.

Markep:

According to C&W the north course was orginally designed by Tull and the south course was originally done by Colt and Alison.

Sometime C&W get there attribution from the club itself so there can be some misinformation, I suppose. Both courses had a number of others work on them at some point for something including Travis on the south course (according to C&W).

[ChipOat]

I always thought Radley Run had an excellent collection of par 3's - one of which is a dead ringer for ANGC #12 (albeit with a larger green).

TEPaul is right, though.  Probably only worthy of mention in a discussion of other Tull courses.

[Markep]

TE -
Ok, I went over to the club and checked this out and they do indeed list Travis as the original architect for CBN, course completed in 1916. Where before I had mentioned that 4 holes were lost to the mall, actually it was 7, so there was very extensive work done with respect to the additions; Tull deserves a lot of the credit for what is there today.

Markep:

According to C&W the north course was orginally designed by Tull and the south course was originally done by Colt and Alison.

Sometime C&W get there attribution from the club itself so there can be some misinformation, I suppose. Both courses had a number of others work on them at some point for something including Travis on the south course (according to C&W).

[TEPaul]

Markep:

It's certainly possible that C&W (Cornish & Whitten) could have gotten the attribution for the north and South courses at Canoe Brook reversed but they only list Travis with an (R) for redesign of the Colt/Alison course but as I said to put their book together they relied on many sources (clubs etc) and those attributions may have been wrong in the first place.

[Markep]

In this case, it seems they are almost certainly wrong as very little re-design has occurred on the Colt/Alison course, and I believe that whatever was done was done in the 50's and 70's; past Travis's time. Thanks for checking though, I might want to get that C&W book.

Markep:

It's certainly possible that C&W (Cornish & Whitten) could have gotten the attribution for the north and South courses at Canoe Brook reversed but they only list Travis with an (R) for redesign of the Colt/Alison course but as I said to put their book together they relied on many sources (clubs etc) and those attributions may have been wrong in the first place.

[Joe Bausch]

Recently played Radley Run, an Alfred Tull design from the mid 60's.  I saw this old thread w/o any pictures, hence I will provide a link to the photo album I created for the course:

http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/albums/RadleyRun/

Overall a very enjoyable layout.  The property is hilly, a bit severe in spots, but it works.  A creek meanders through much of the course.  Lush and green it is, too.   

I would love to have many Poulan's meet up with some lignin as the lush rough is more than enough impediment to sprayed shots, and the beautiful terrain could be further showcased.

[Philip Caccamise]

Recently played Radley Run, an Alfred Tull design from the mid 60's.  I saw this old thread w/o any pictures, hence I will provide a link to the photo album I created for the course:

http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/albums/RadleyRun/

Overall a very enjoyable layout.  The property is hilly, a bit severe in spots, but it works.  A creek meanders through much of the course.  Lush and green it is, too.   

I would love to have many Poulan's meet up with some lignin as the lush rough is more than enough impediment to sprayed shots, and the beautiful terrain could be further showcased.

Golfweek Amateur Tour Philadelphia is playing there this weekend. You probably already know that your gallery is linked from their frontpage. Keep em coming 

[Mark McKeever]

Easley Run is certainly blessed with a nice piece of property!

[mike_malone]

 Radley is a good example that when you go straight up and down hills it is weak but when you run along the ridge it is fun.

[ChipOat]

Joe,

The creek that runs through the course is, in fact, Radley Run.  Now, where do you suppose the club got its name?

BTW, when the club first opened, the clubhouse was a wonderful converted barn in which Andrew Wyeth allowed quite a few of his paintings to hang.  They were all lost when the clubhouse burned to the ground in the late '60s.

The pro was a classy guy named Chet Munson.  He was able to get every members' bag safely out of club storage before the place went totally up in flames.  EVERYTHING else was lost - including his golf shop inventory.

[Mark McKeever]

Its interesting that Tull didnt choose to mimick the Emmet style at all on other courses after Emmet died. 

Similar to how the Gordons did a fairly decent job to create a "Flynn like" golf course long after Flynn died.

Thoughts?


Mark