[Jay Flemma]

So I've played twice this week on paspalum - once at Costa Baja and once at Diamonte Dunes - and I have a question...

As anyone who plays with me knows, Neil Regan and I were separated at birth.  Like him, I love the ground game.  I love to bump and run, I love to putt from off the green, I love to hit wind cheaters and punch shots with two clubs more than I'd hit my normal shot.  It's an effective and important part of my game.  It helps me save shots around the green really well. plus it's fun!

Now I loved both Diamonte (for the design) and Costa Baja (for the natural setting), but I have to note one thing:  every time I tried to bump and run or putt from off the green, the ball stopped dead in its tracks.  Spongy, clingy, grabby - I couldn't keep trying it because it just didn't work.  I had to use my wedge instead.

Has anyone else noticed this?  Is this normal for paspalum?  Yes, it's hardier and all season, but will it further Americanize golf and eliminate greenside options by its agronomic nature?  Are there other courses where the paspalum is less grabby? Or other strains that play differently.  I think I played on "C-dwarf" and one other strain I need to remember the name of...

Is it possible that in the name of all weather grass and southern major championship venues, we've some something bad for the average player or eliminated options for amateurs?

[Brent Hutto]

Most of my experience with Paspalum is at the Ocean Course. I'd say the "grabbiness" is quite real. But the entire package, at any given season of the year, is no less ground game friendly with Paspalum than with Bermuda overseeded in winter. The water applied to most Bermuda courses in Paspalum-friendly climates tends to be bad for the ground game in hot season. Then transitions twice a year and finally a few months of decent cool-climate grass in December/January/February.

All together I think the fairly year-round consistent Paspalum offers as good a ground game on average as most of the alternatives. And it has manifold other benefits, as you allude to. I'm a fan!

[Jay Flemma]

Brent, when you say the Ocean course I think you mean Kiawah Island? I didn't play well at Kiawah, and I can't recall how it played. I was too busy trying to find my swing that day:)

I find I can bump and run much better on bermuda - Cabo del Sol Ocean for example, I had no trouble playing the ground game.  The difference in the playability of those shots was night and day to me.  The same id true when I go down to Florida.  yes, when the overseeding gets long you have to use the wedge around the greens, but I played CDS Ocean on Day 1 and 2, Diamonte on Day 3 and Costa Baja on day four and could use the ground game at CDS Ocean, but not anywhere else.  I play the desert today, so I'll report back afterwards.

Jason Topp and Greg Tallman, the white courtesy phone is ringing for you!

[Jud_T]

Jay,

I didn't find that.  I think mowing height is critical. What time of day did you play?  My main criticism was when cut to rough height it's a hack and hope job.  I actually like the surface for the climate zone when cut to proper fairway height, and I doubt there's anyone here who likes the ground game more than I do.

[Bill_McBride]

Maybe the courses are over watered because of the ready availability of salt water for irrigation.  The paspalum I remember best was on Forrest Richardson's excellent course at the north end of the Sea of Cortez, the Links at Las Palomas.  Very tight turf, fast, bouncy, nothing slow about it at all.   I suspect you experienced a maintenance meld focused on appearance rather than fast and firm.

[Greg Tallman]

Pretty sure Brett is referrring to Kiawah Ocean as they have the paspalum grasses there versus bermuda here at Cabo del Sol.

Paspalum is definitely a slower, grabbier grass even when managed perfectly. Obviously bermuda is not ideal for the ground game but does offer that option to a degree as evidenced by my playing decisions on 5 and 9 when we played. Well, my playing decission on 9 was not much of a decision as someone posting in this topic had claimed my 3-metal and I was forced to hit a run up driver from the fariway. Best shot of the day.

For the record the original poster in this thread did catch the edge of the cup with his tee shot on the famed 17th, no ground game emplyed there.  

[Jay Flemma]

Jud, I played at 2:30 in the afternoon at Diamonte, but 10 a.m. at Costa Baja, and experienced the same phenomenon.  Boy, if you miss the fairways at Diamonte, good luck finding the ball and if you do, good luck hitting it out again!  The conditioning to play on was excellent, but I was relegated to the wedge.

At CDS Ocean, I played ground game all day long.  (Well except when faced with a forced carry like 17...and yes, that was astonishing watching that ball hit the cup and lip out.  Still never had a hole in one despite hitting three cups/sticks, but I have got three eagles on par-fours.

Don't get me wrong, I like Diamonte.  There are some interesting holes (just not 10...a 570 yards par-four...astonishing.  Why?)  But some other worldly holes too like fifteen and seventeen.  But even though it looks like a links, it didn't play like a links.

[Jeff_Brauer]

We could lament the loss of ground game at certain courses, or celebrate the expansion of golf to seaside areas where it was not previously possible......I choose the latter.

[Jay Flemma]

Jeff, I see your point, respect it, and will present it when I write the article...but I have to choose the former because I'm just not good enough a golfer to play the aerial attack every shot.  I need more consistency.  I hit some terrific golf shots (like eagles on par-fours and 17 at CDS the other day...and sometimes my evil twin "Wrong Way Jay" gets loose out of the trunk of my car and I lose a dozen balls in a round:)

[Greg Tallman]

Jay - If you lose a dozen balls this afternoon (impossible) your punishment will be 6 months of golf instruction here in Cabo!

Jeff - Paspalum was not the only choice for grasses on those courses and thus the discussion point is valid (as is yours were it viewed as an either/or scenario).

[Jay Flemma]

Losing almost a dozen balls in the space of 9 holes is its own punishment:)   #mortifying #humbling  It was my turn for all the Furies of the Golf Gods to come riding down on my head on their Steeds of Vengeance  Thank goodness Evil Jay got locked back into the trunk of the car.  Oh well...the game takes its toll on all of us.  Also glad I can return to playing the ground game today.  Further word coming...

[Jay Flemma]

Played lousy for the front nine, but then picked it up on the back.

Jeff, after further review, the play stands as called.  Speaking generally, I'd rather have courses that allow the ground game and need to be over seeded than have courses that stay nice all year and in shorelines but don't allow playing options like the ground game.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Jay,

Hear ya, but saw the photos of you playing golf in Mexico, and I presumed that they were using saltwater for irrigation which does require paspalum.   That is the case in much of Mexico, I think, but I don't know the specifics of where you played (I only look at the pictures....)

[Jay Flemma]

I'm waiting for Paul Cowley and Jason Topp to chime in as well, Jeff, but I had the same thing happen at both CB and DD - couldn't putt form off the green like our old pal Neil Regan.  For a bogey golfer that putts well, that's a great way to shave a few strokes.

Other thoughts?  Anyone...

[Greg Tallman]

Cannot really speak to Costa Baja but have never felt that putting from off the greens at Diamante was an issue.  The paspalum causes problems with the bump and run and bouncing it on on the approach whcih is not really the play on many approaches (maybe 2, 6 and on 10 by default) anyway.

Doak's Bay of Dreams offered more run up/bounce it in options and, in general, the grass was somewhat accepting of this type of shot though not always. The course was kept pretty dry but after a couple of years and lack of aggressive maintenance the ground game had disappeared for the most part.

[Tim Gavrich]

The Myrtle Beach area has one course that is wall-to-wall Paspalum: Pine Lakes. I would put it far from the bottom of a ranking of firmest to softest courses in the area. I think that if you can keep paspalum reasonably tight around the greens, you can bounce it around a little.

[Jay Flemma]

...a little...

[Bill_McBride]

Doak's Bay of Dreams offered more run up/bounce it in options and, in general, the grass was somewhat accepting of this type of shot though not always. The course was kept pretty dry but after a couple of years and lack of aggressive maintenance the ground game had disappeared for the most part.

To me this last bit confirms that the firmness of paspalum is a maintenance rather than a grass issue.

[Greg Tallman]

Doak's Bay of Dreams offered more run up/bounce it in options and, in general, the grass was somewhat accepting of this type of shot though not always. The course was kept pretty dry but after a couple of years and lack of aggressive maintenance the ground game had disappeared for the most part.

To me this last bit confirms that the firmness of paspalum is a maintenance rather than a grass issue.

Not entirely - you have to stay on top of paspalum to get even a modestly receptive surface in terms of ground game. The aggressive maintenance does nothing to combat the waxy nature of the leaf blade however.

My point on BOD is that Doak certainly thinks in terms of the ground game and at Diamante the lack of this option is equal parts design and turf.

I do not know any turf knowledgable person who would argue that paspalum is equal to bermuda in ground options. Neither are ideal obviously.

[John Chilver-Stainer]

My experience with Paspalum is only positive when it comes to the ground game. On a course in Fuerteventura in the Canary Islands we seeded Paspalum in the first phase and sprigged it in the second phase and it has developed into a sparse and tight fairway grass.

The grass is not overwatered and seldom has fertiliser and is cut low.

The course is in it's 5th playing season and is still fast and firm.

The grass can develop creepers, which with timely verticutting can be controlled.

Are the courses you play, heavily watered?

[Josh Tarble]

I've never played on paspalum but my question is, is it impossible to play the ground game? Or just more difficult? Maybe it just takes a bit of a different technique?

[Jud_T]

Josh,

It's very possible if it isn't overwatered.  It ain't fescue but for the climate's we're talking about it's quite good and also apparently very sustainable.  My only issue is that it's similar to Kikuyu in grabbiness when cut to rough length.  Yet another reason courses don't need rough! 

[Greg Tallman]

There is a pretty extensive thread on this topic somewhere here.

[Jay Flemma]

At least at the two places I played in Cabo, it was impossible.  I know, it's know it's my bread and butter game, and when i switch to my lob wedges, something's wrong.  I do think its a maintenance issue though, in that it's late summer season for them...

[Greg Tallman]

At least at the two places I played in Cabo, it was impossible.  I know, it's know it's my bread and butter game, and when i switch to my lob wedges, something's wrong.  I do think its a maintenance issue though, in that it's late summer season for them...

Summer season certainly contributed to what you experienced but I would not label Diamante as overwatered in general. Their perc rate is so off the charts anyway it would be hard to truly over water through stndard irrigation. The summer "puffiness" even with our still relatively low humidities affects all of us.

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