[Patrick_Mucci]

Lou,

In general for about 15-20 years I was longer with my driver at ages 50-70 than I was at 25.

Starting in my 60's I started getting shorter with my irons

[Mark Smolens]

I'm sorry, but growing rough so high that you can't see your shoes is not the way I'd like to see the challenges at Merion presented. One of the real beauties of the game is that a player like myself can -- given an appropriate level of handicap strokes -- play a competitive match with a player of much greater ability. I could never play one on one with Lebron James, or a tennis match with Andy Murray, but give me six a side Tiger and let's have a go.

The distance the modern, multi-layer golf ball travels makes great old courses such as Merion resort to being tricked up in order to be defended. If the ball were dialed back, a great deal of that could be eliminated.

[DMoriarty]

I recall Deane Beaman and a few others were short hitters at about 240 when Nicklaus was hitting it 300+.

People have very skewed memories when it comes to how far big hitters used to hit it.  

In 1980 Nickaus was still in the top ten in driving distance on Tour.  That year he averaged 269 yards off the tee on driver measured holes.

Remember how incredibly long John Daly was driving it when he burst onto the scene in the early 1990's?   In '99, '92, and '93, he averaged 289, 283, and 289, respectively.

[Lou_Duran]

Lou,

In general for about 15-20 years I was longer with my driver at ages 50-70 than I was at 25.

Starting in my 60's I started getting shorter with my irons

TEPaul did say that you were the second most unusual man in golf.  Or was it interesting?

Can the physics be right unless you have a very different swing for your driver?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Lou,

My driver swing is probably a Mo Norman knockoff

[Mike_Young]

My generation started with persimmon woods and wound balata and witnessed the change to two and three/four/five piece balls and 460cc drivers with graphite shafts.  We may be the only generation that has seen a distance increase as we aged.  It kept many in the game.  The 25 year old player of today should be the cusp of  golfers that once again see a distance decrease as they age unless equipment continues to increase distance.  It will be interesting to see how a decrease in distance as this generation ages will affect play....

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike,

That's an interesting issue.

I wonder what the clamor will be when they start losing distance as they age ?

Shorter courses ?

[Doug Siebert]

My generation started with persimmon woods and wound balata and witnessed the change to two and three/four/five piece balls and 460cc drivers with graphite shafts.  We may be the only generation that has seen a distance increase as we aged.  It kept many in the game.  The 25 year old player of today should be the cusp of  golfers that once again see a distance decrease as they age unless equipment continues to increase distance.  It will be interesting to see how a decrease in distance as this generation ages will affect play....

Kept many in the game?  Do people quit golfing because they starting hitting it shorter as they age?  Someone should tell my dad, he can barely hit it out of his shadow, and only now at age 79 has he really cut back on the golf - but not because of how short he hits it, because it is more difficult for him to walk up and down the mounds around greens etc.

I've certainly noticed a drop off in distance the last few years, though the jury is still out whether that's from getting a bit older or because of swing problems (the distance loss has been accompanied by far more mishits than I used to have, especially with the irons, so the jury is still out)

Unless technology continues giving me free distance, at some point I'll no longer be able to handle playing from the back tees.  That's fine, that's why there is more than one set.  If I played golf because I enjoyed hitting it a long way, I'd have saved time and money by confining my play to knocking balls over the back fence at the driving range.

[Mike_Young]

My generation started with persimmon woods and wound balata and witnessed the change to two and three/four/five piece balls and 460cc drivers with graphite shafts.  We may be the only generation that has seen a distance increase as we aged.  It kept many in the game.  The 25 year old player of today should be the cusp of  golfers that once again see a distance decrease as they age unless equipment continues to increase distance.  It will be interesting to see how a decrease in distance as this generation ages will affect play....

Kept many in the game?  Do people quit golfing because they starting hitting it shorter as they age?  Someone should tell my dad, he can barely hit it out of his shadow, and only now at age 79 has he really cut back on the golf - but not because of how short he hits it, because it is more difficult for him to walk up and down the mounds around greens etc.

I've certainly noticed a drop off in distance the last few years, though the jury is still out whether that's from getting a bit older or because of swing problems (the distance loss has been accompanied by far more mishits than I used to have, especially with the irons, so the jury is still out)

Unless technology continues giving me free distance, at some point I'll no longer be able to handle playing from the back tees.  That's fine, that's why there is more than one set.  If I played golf because I enjoyed hitting it a long way, I'd have saved time and money by confining my play to knocking balls over the back fence at the driving range.

Doug,
I'm going to stand by my theory that many will leave the game over distance.  IMHO your Dad's generation played courses where they could approach greens from the front.  So much of what my generation has been playing will not allow the ball to roll and as iron speed decreases so will height.  I understand what you are saying and I agree as to distance being the only factor.  I am a member of a course where many of the older fellows have stopped playing from our bunkers because the "restoration" has mad it where they cannot get in and out of the bunkers physically.

[Doug Siebert]

Courses built so you have to loft the ball onto all the greens weren't senior friendly when they were built and won't be senior friendly in the future.  Can't the seniors find somewhere else to play?  It might be a problem for clubs with courses like that, if they can't replace seniors that leave with younger members.  But causing them to leave the game entirely?  I have difficulty believing that, since there still are plenty of courses that allow you to run the ball in for golfers who want to keep playing.

[Wayne_Kozun]

What about women today who can't hit the ball with loft?  My club has a 110 yd par 3 with bunkers on all four sides.  For me (12 h'cap) it is a SW or GW.  For women the hole plays about 90 yards but they can't hit the ball high and softly so they have a lot more problem with the hole.

[Tom_Doak]

What about women today who can't hit the ball with loft?  My club has a 110 yd par 3 with bunkers on all four sides.  For me (12 h'cap) it is a SW or GW.  For women the hole plays about 90 yards but they can't hit the ball high and softly so they have a lot more problem with the hole.

This is, in fact, a design dilemma.  I rarely build par-3 holes that are surrounded by bunkers for just this reason, but I know that better players think my par-3's are weaker than some others' because of it.

We did restore the 13th at San Francisco Golf Club with its deep front bunker and no way to bounce the ball in ... and it has garnered many complaints from the ladies since it was brought back into play.  I guess Tillinghast didn't mind such criticism.

[Wayne_Kozun]

I guess Tillinghast didn't mind such criticism.

Actually my club, Scarboro, was redesigned by Tillinghast although I don't know how much he changed this hole from George Cumming's original design. 

[Doug Siebert]

Yeah, strikes me that it is more likely that the way many courses are designed now that chases people out of the game as they age, not the fact they are losing distance.

I imagine part of the reason for this architectural trend was the introduced of cast irons (cavity back with lots of bottom weight) that made it easier for average golfers to hit their irons high enough to have a chance at holding a (overwatered) green?  Another unintended consequence of technology.

[Patrick_Mucci]

What about women today who can't hit the ball with loft?  My club has a 110 yd par 3 with bunkers on all four sides.  For me (12 h'cap) it is a SW or GW.  For women the hole plays about 90 yards but they can't hit the ball high and softly so they have a lot more problem with the hole.

Wayne,

So to what degree do you dumb down the architecture to accomodate the game of the lowest common denominator ?

Should there not be a minimum performance standard ?

Tennis hasn't lowered the height of the Net and basketball hasn't reduced the height of the rims or the distance from the free throw line !

Why should golf reduce the challenge to accomodate the worst players ?

How did women play in the 20's, 30's, 40's, and 50's ?

Tom Doak,

Holes like # 17 at The Creek, # 16 at Sleepy Hollow and # 6 at National present a unique challenge.
Not an overwhelming challenge, but a unique challenge nonetheless.

You have a dilemma that we don't face.
YOU have to craft a disinterested challenge that can accomodate the broad spectrum of golfers/members.
But, to what lengths must you go to accomodate the golfers at the extreme end of that spectrum  ?
How much of your design concepts must you sacrifice in order to accomodate the worst golfers ?

And, as you stated about distance, "where and when will it end ?"

[Wayne_Kozun]

@Pat - I am not saying that you should change courses for the LCD, I am just saying that it is a radically different game when you can't hit a high shot that stops within 10 yards or so, it makes the game much more challenging and drastically changes the way that the hole is played.

[Wayne_Kozun]

To get back to driving distances, in 1980 (the first year for which stats are available on PGATOUR.com) the long driver hit it 274 and the #100 driver (which is about the median) hit it 255 or about 93% as far.  This year #1 hits it 306 and #100 hits it 287 or about 94% as far.  Therefore not much change in the ratio of the long hitter over the median hitter.

[Patrick_Mucci]

@Pat - I am not saying that you should change courses for the LCD, I am just saying that it is a radically different game when you can't hit a high shot that stops within 10 yards or so, it makes the game much more challenging and drastically changes the way that the hole is played.

But Wayne, that was more the case in the 1920's when the ball and equipment performed so much worse.

And, without wall to wall irrigation, it as even harder to stop a low trajectory ball

[Wayne_Kozun]

@Pat - I am not saying that you should change courses for the LCD, I am just saying that it is a radically different game when you can't hit a high shot that stops within 10 yards or so, it makes the game much more challenging and drastically changes the way that the hole is played.

But Wayne, that was more the case in the 1920's when the ball and equipment performed so much worse.

And, without wall to wall irrigation, it as even harder to stop a low trajectory ball

I don't have a 1920s ball or lack of irrigation but I can hit this green with my Tom Stewart niblick.  I think clubhead speed is far more important than the club technology.

[Patrick_Mucci]

@Pat - I am not saying that you should change courses for the LCD, I am just saying that it is a radically different game when you can't hit a high shot that stops within 10 yards or so, it makes the game much more challenging and drastically changes the way that the hole is played.

But Wayne, that was more the case in the 1920's when the ball and equipment performed so much worse.

And, without wall to wall irrigation, it as even harder to stop a low trajectory ball

I don't have a 1920s ball or lack of irrigation but I can hit this green with my Tom Stewart niblick. 
I think clubhead speed is far more important than the club technology.

It's club technology that produces increased clubhead speed.

Tom Stewart from Pinehurst ?
The former head pro at Adios ?

[Wayne_Kozun]

No, the one from St Andrews
http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,45687.0/

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