[Adam Clayman]

Sven, The largest inherent factor with the orig posit was ESPN's coverage.

[Sven Nilsen]

Sven, The largest inherent factor with the orig posit was ESPN's coverage.

Adam:

Perhaps we interpreted Terry's comments differently.  I didn't read what he wrote as a critique of the coverage, more as an observation regarding how the course itself came across through the coverage.

The central thought that I read in what Terry was saying is that the course lacks an abundance of bold and distinctive features.  I also interpreted Terry's comments to not be a judgment on quality, but merely a statement regarding memorability.  Its easy to remember 17 and 18 at TOC, just like its easy to remember 12 and 13 at Augusta, or 15 and 16 at Cypress or 7 and 8 at Ballyneal.   

I almost added some thoughts on how there are factors in links golf that you couldn't possible portray through the airways, including the wind, the subtlety of the contours and what the course really looks like from ground level on each and every shot.  These are factors that contribute to the interest of a round of golf at Muirfield, but they aren't features that you will see while watching the course on television, and they won't contribute to making the course memorable from the viewers perspective.

Sven

[Mike Schott]

It's very hard to judge a course by the TV coverage. Many here are saying that Muirlfield is flat but some of the ground level shots showed what looked like undulating fairways. TV makes Torrey Pines South look like it's right on the ocean and when I played it (in about 2005) none of the holes were directly on the bluffs. Recent changes to 4 may have changed this but it's a flat parkland course with some beautiful canyons that don't often come into play. That said, I do remember many of the holes but only 3, 4, 6, 13, 16 and 18 remain clear in my mind. And 18 only because of the pond. Muirfield however seems to have a ton of character and a round there would be full of memories.

[Mark Pearce]

Mark,

2 was playing as a 2 iron and 7 a 9 iron which is quite a difference in my book. The course does not have any spectacular holes and yet is a great, great course which I will take over the countless examples of one hole courses there are.

Jon

Jon,

I'm guessing you meant to say 4 and 7.  I think the difference between the holes is more about length than concept, each of 4, 7 and 16 is a raised green surrounded by bunkers and run off areas.

[Dave McCollum]

I’d like to echo those comments that watching tournament TV coverage, at least for me, is vastly different from playing a course.  In my extremely limited experience, I have a difficult, if not impossible, time appreciating what I see on TV with what I see and feel when actually on the turf.  I base this reaction on the two or three times I’ve watched a tournament on TV played over a course that I’ve actually experienced first-hand in the flesh.  My experience is two sides of the same coin:  the TV is much more exciting and interesting (after playing/seeing a course); and the actual playing or seeing the course (before or after seeing it on TV) is exponentially better.  I have no illusions that my reaction is anything other than subjective, rather like comparing a book to the movie version, but it’s powerful and unequivocal. 

This was most recently reinforced by spending a Thursday at the US Open at Merion, then watching the rest of the event on TV.  I was and remain overwhelmed by all that was not apparent in the TV coverage.

[Jon Wiggett]

Mark,

2 was playing as a 2 iron and 7 a 9 iron which is quite a difference in my book. The course does not have any spectacular holes and yet is a great, great course which I will take over the countless examples of one hole courses there are.

Jon

Jon,

I'm guessing you meant to say 4 and 7.  I think the difference between the holes is more about length than concept, each of 4, 7 and 16 is a raised green surrounded by bunkers and run off areas.

Yes Mark,

I did mean 4 not 2. Four also plays from a raised tee and is easier to draw the ball into where as seven plays slightly uphill from memory and favours a fade. On top of that there is the different direction of play. 16 depends the pin position though this is true of many a par 3. I agree with you about being raised and the bunkering.

Jon

[Philip Gawith]

It is always true that TV struggles to reflect the lie of the land and that is certainly true at Muirfield.

I walked most of the course on Friday and the pace and firmness made it pretty scary. The shot that really stuck in the mind was seeing what happened if you missed the fourth green on the left (as Snedeker who i was following did). Near impossible.

Some other random impressions that partly relate to this discussion:

- I would agree with Tom that four memorable holes is matched by very few courses. And i would certainly add 2 and 6, especially,  to any list and probably 11 too.
- agree that the par 3's are a bit samey inasmuch as three are the same direction and 7 is in the opposite direction. Still, a pretty daunting group of holes and 13 especially has a fantastic shape green as Tom indicates - 40 + yards long and extremely narrow.
- in similar vein, i think people who have only played the course will struggle a bit to separate 12,14 and 15 (sacrilege?!) in their mind as they all par fours headed in the same direction (especially 14 and 15 coming back to back). Incidentally, one interesting feature was watching different strategies on 12. When i was watching, Schwartzel drove through the back of the 379 yard 12th while Westwood played 7 iron (short of bunkers) and 9 iron to two feet!
- in tournament shape, the fact that you tee off on 10 almost abutting the hotel and play 18 straight up to the clubhouse adds a lot of character (though 1 is a bit of an underwhelming start, albeit not easy).
- if you are talking purely the look of the course, then Muirfield may lack some memorability. But  very, very few clubs provide such a powerful  overalll golfing experience when you take account of  the course (with many fine holes and very distinctive routing), the history and the clubhouse.

[Mark Pearce]

Philip,

It has never occurred to me that anyone might find 12, 14 and 15 similar.  Not least as two are driver wedge/short iron holes and 14 is, for me, driver long iron (or even wood).  Very different defences, too and 15 may be the hardest green on the course.

[Terry Lavin]

It is always true that TV struggles to reflect the lie of the land and that is certainly true at Muirfield.

I walked most of the course on Friday and the pace and firmness made it pretty scary. The shot that really stuck in the mind was seeing what happened if you missed the fourth green on the left (as Snedeker who i was following did). Near impossible.

Some other random impressions that partly relate to this discussion:

- I would agree with Tom that four memorable holes is matched by very few courses. And i would certainly add 2 and 6, especially,  to any list and probably 11 too.
- agree that the par 3's are a bit samey inasmuch as three are the same direction and 7 is in the opposite direction. Still, a pretty daunting group of holes and 13 especially has a fantastic shape green as Tom indicates - 40 + yards long and extremely narrow.
- in similar vein, i think people who have only played the course will struggle a bit to separate 12,14 and 15 (sacrilege?!) in their mind as they all par fours headed in the same direction (especially 14 and 15 coming back to back). Incidentally, one interesting feature was watching different strategies on 12. When i was watching, Schwartzel drove through the back of the 379 yard 12th while Westwood played 7 iron (short of bunkers) and 9 iron to two feet!
- in tournament shape, the fact that you tee off on 10 almost abutting the hotel and play 18 straight up to the clubhouse adds a lot of character (though 1 is a bit of an underwhelming start, albeit not easy).
- if you are talking purely the look of the course, then Muirfield may lack some memorability. But  very, very few clubs provide such a powerful  overalll golfing experience when you take account of  the course (with many fine holes and very distinctive routing), the history and the clubhouse.

PG:

Thank you. Now I get it. I know what I'm missing. Well articulated.

[Doug Siebert]

Philip,

It has never occurred to me that anyone might find 12, 14 and 15 similar.  Not least as two are driver wedge/short iron holes and 14 is, for me, driver long iron (or even wood).  Very different defences, too and 15 may be the hardest green on the course.

15 stood out in my memory because of the tee shot played at such an angle from the fairway.  I don't see how anyone could feel it is similar to 12 and 13 from that alone, unless they played from the tee that makes it play more straight on.

The entire stretch from 8 to 13 will forever remain strongly etched in my mind.  That may be the greatest six hole stretch I've ever played.  No two shots are the same, and you get five completely different wind directions.  Six, if you count the dogleg on 8.  Amazingly, they are all clustered together and you finish that stretch within a a couple hundred yards of where you started.

[Steve Salmen]

I believe course set up are two different things for parkland and linksland courses.  As far as I know, they do not cut primary ruough in the UK on links courses.  Besides that, what can you do to set the course up?  I don't think they grew in the fairways.  I once stepped the width of the kink in the first fairway at 20 paces.  I think the only two things they can do are water and control the height if the grass on the greens.  Everything else takes care of itself; the hardness of the ground and the wind.  I would much rathere seen the open as it was, than if they had drenched the course with water and received no wind, thus turning the open into target practice. There can be a fine line.  The only over the top thing I saw was Mickelson's ball rolling off the front of the 16th after a good shot.

I played Muirfield when I was 19 and knew less than nothing about architecture.  I knew it was special back then and still have the same thoughts and feelings about the place.  My favorite holes are 6 and 15. 

As for Phil's second to 17, it was especially great because he threaded the ball through an area half the width of the green.  The right hand part of the green is blocked bya a bunker and dune and the ball cannot be run on the green there.

I estimate I've played about 350 golf courses and Muirfield is where I would prefer to play my last round.

[Philip Gawith]

Mark, my observation almost certainly says more about me than Muirfield! It is not a criticism - just an observation from someone who has played the course maybe six times - I struggle to separate these holes in my mind with the ease i can recall the others. I will try harder next time! Or maybe need to get on the course again and pay closer attention! As you can tell i am a fan - these are counsels of perfection!

[Thomas Dai]

As I've posted elsewhere, I think Muirfield is wonderful. It isn't perhaps the most photogenic course on The Open rota, so on TV it doesn't appear particularly exciting, even though it's great to play.
All the best

[Bill_McBride]

Philip,

It has never occurred to me that anyone might find 12, 14 and 15 similar.  Not least as two are driver wedge/short iron holes and 14 is, for me, driver long iron (or even wood).  Very different defences, too and 15 may be the hardest green on the course.

15 stood out in my memory because of the tee shot played at such an angle from the fairway.  I don't see how anyone could feel it is similar to 12 and 13 from that alone, unless they played from the tee that makes it play more straight on.

They played from the right hand tees in the Open, which take the left side diagonal bunkers completely out of play.   From the tee played by visitors, it's a dogleg left around or over those bunkers, which become cross bunkers.   To me it's a better hole from there.

[John Percival]

If TV would show more ground shots, especially near greens, then the viewer can appreciate the terrain. Example, after Mickelson's ball rolled back off the 16th green (final round), the camera shot from behind him showed just how elevated the green was. Made his pitch and subsequent par even more impressive.

[Doug Siebert]

Philip,

It has never occurred to me that anyone might find 12, 14 and 15 similar.  Not least as two are driver wedge/short iron holes and 14 is, for me, driver long iron (or even wood).  Very different defences, too and 15 may be the hardest green on the course.

15 stood out in my memory because of the tee shot played at such an angle from the fairway.  I don't see how anyone could feel it is similar to 12 and 13 from that alone, unless they played from the tee that makes it play more straight on.

They played from the right hand tees in the Open, which take the left side diagonal bunkers completely out of play.   From the tee played by visitors, it's a dogleg left around or over those bunkers, which become cross bunkers.   To me it's a better hole from there.

When I played there, it was Open tees on every hole except the par 5s.

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