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Matt_Ward

Re:Your top courses in Ireland / No. Ireland ?
« Reply #50 on: August 07, 2003, 12:48:32 PM »
Rich:

To be clear -- I do enjoy the randomness of golf but I don't enjoy it to the level that some who are overdose on this sort of thing fancy. You see Rich I enjoy courses where there is some connection to the fact that good shots are rewarded (with some predictability) and bad shots are punished (with some sort of predictability). When this is completely distorted and turned on its head there are some here on GCVA who are junkies for all the "quirk" that they believe is central to design.

Quirk has its place but I don't view it as being the be-all end-all that some relish. My tastses in courses is quite diverse and I'm game for what the Irish have.

Given my tight time schedule it's doubtful I'll be able to trek to Portsalon this time -- thanks for the recommendation anyway.  ;)

THuckaby2

Re:Your top courses in Ireland / No. Ireland ?
« Reply #51 on: August 07, 2003, 12:56:02 PM »
"Rich I enjoy courses where there is some connection to the fact that good shots are rewarded (with some predictability) and bad shots are punished (with some sort of predictability)."

Matt, there is absolutely nothing wrong with this thinking, many people do assess courses in this light.  Just do me a favor - if you haven't played The Old Course at St. Andrews yet, don't.  You'll absolutely hate it.  Nowhere on this planet is there less predictability in the reward for bad and good shots.

Now I'm sure Darren or Tommy will step in to tell me how I'm wrong, but don't listen to them.  Randomness is the name of the game there.

And I for one love it.

TH
« Last Edit: August 07, 2003, 12:56:42 PM by Tom Huckaby »

Matt_Ward

Re:Your top courses in Ireland / No. Ireland ?
« Reply #52 on: August 07, 2003, 02:48:48 PM »
Tom H:

What's amusing is how people love the randomness (the more PC word than quirk) when playing overseas but when they return to their own clubs prefer the meat'n potato type golf that Rich alluded to.

I enjoy the vagaries of the game but when the majority of the round at any course is subject to the whimsy of luck than what role does skill play?

THuckaby2

Re:Your top courses in Ireland / No. Ireland ?
« Reply #53 on: August 07, 2003, 03:12:03 PM »
That's the point in a nutshell, Matt.  Skill plays a much smaller role at TOC than anywhere else.  If that bothers you, then stay away.  It doesn't bother everyone, that's all.  Me, I'm happy to have TOC as it is - I can have my skill or lack thereof rewarded or not anywhere else.  What's wrong with a little variety?

As for liking quirk/luck more over there, it's because people expect it over there.  It's the nature of links golf.  Expectations are for uniform perfect conditions and purely predictable reward here.  I see no problem with any of this, it's just too different ways of looking at the game... Just as links golf is VERY different from manicured parkland golf.

TH

Matt_Ward

Re:Your top courses in Ireland / No. Ireland ?
« Reply #54 on: August 07, 2003, 07:22:43 PM »
Need major help -- I will be staying in the Dublin area for more than a day and one round will naturally be at Portmarnock. If I have to play another course in the area what one would work best. Please try to understand that high doses of the quirk factor are not that appealing to me. Some quirk is certainly fine.

If anyone can respond ASAP it is deeply appreciated.

Please also tell me why in brief sentences.

Adios for now ... ;)

Doug Wright

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Your top courses in Ireland / No. Ireland ?
« Reply #55 on: August 07, 2003, 10:50:01 PM »
Matt,

Aw hell Matt since your quirk-a-phobia is surfacing unfortunately you'll have to skip The Island, which is one of the most fun courses I've played but alas it's quirky, quirky quirky and way too short for your mighty blows.

Go play Royal Dublin. No quirk there, just an out and back flat routing in a featureless industrial area that I'm sure you'll enjoy... ::)  ::)

BTW I renew my suggestion of Killarney Killeen. I really do think you'd appreciate this straightforward parkland course.

All The Best,
Twitter: @Deneuchre

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Your top courses in Ireland / No. Ireland ?
« Reply #56 on: August 08, 2003, 09:09:38 AM »
 Matt
 The Island and Royal Dublin are both minutes from Portmarnock.Choose either.
     Be prepared not to like links golf.A friend of mine went over to Ireland with me for 5 days---nine holes into it he realized he hated it.
 Your adversion to "quirk" may be a signal that this is not your type of golf.
AKA Mayday

ForkaB

Re:Your top courses in Ireland / No. Ireland ?
« Reply #57 on: August 08, 2003, 09:14:53 AM »
Doug

I love the concept of "quirk-o-phobia"  Either the next rock opera from Pete Townshend, or a great new thread!  You choose.

Matt_Ward

Re:Your top courses in Ireland / No. Ireland ?
« Reply #58 on: August 08, 2003, 11:27:48 AM »
Gentlemen:

Puhleeeeeeeeeeeze nuff about how Ward hates quirk or other such drivel.  ::)

What I said is that I don't mind the odd-bounce now and then. It's when such things become the DOMINANT ingredient than you have to ask what is really being tested or proved by such designs.

There are those here on GCA who really get into the quirk and simply forget that golf is ultimately a game whereby skill (reward / punishment) is not a fixed mark but it cannot be one where utter randomness is the central core.

No matter -- I go with a sense of purpose and I'm psyched to see what comes my way.

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Your top courses in Ireland / No. Ireland ?
« Reply #59 on: August 08, 2003, 11:59:04 AM »
Matt Ward:

FYI, my impression from playing in Ireland many times is that locals might not have the same idea about "quirk" as Americans who visit once or twice.

Take the famous blind Dell hole at Lahinch. Surely this would qualify as "quirk" in the view of most one time visitors. But, my sense is that locals look at it differently. They believe skill plays a big part of playing the hole well.

The same can be said for some of the famous holes at Dooks. True the par 3 #13 pushes the envelope on "quirk", but locals seem to just play it like any par 3 where a well placed tee shot does really matter - even if first time visitors think the green is absolutely crazy. The closing hole (prior to a reported routing change) is another example. I've never seen a local who believed that anything other than skill was required. But, again, first time visitors think the approach to this green is just plain funny.

I'd make the same observations of a place like Prestwick in Scotland, though sadly I've only spent a few days playing that specific course. The second shot on the famous Cardinal bunker hole has all the characteristics of "quirk" - blindness, a funny landing area even if you find it - but my sense is that members are convinced that skill is the key to overcoming the likely funny bounce you'll get but never see. Prestwick's Alps is another example. Locals told me the key is a well placed drive in the fairway, judgment about wind, club selection and a well struck second shot. In other words, all the things we normally associate with "skill".

It is probably a gross oversimplification but my sense is that folks across the pond tend to appreciate "quirk" more AND believe "skill" has more to do with overcoming it than most American visitors who find playing certain shots humbling or frustrating on the first one or two tries.
Tim Weiman

Stan Dodd

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Your top courses in Ireland / No. Ireland ?
« Reply #60 on: August 08, 2003, 12:16:01 PM »
Matt,
Would reccomend County Louth, not too far from Dublin airport, and good highway now.
A wonderful straight forward links, well bunkered with a wild look, greens full of fun that require skill to navigate.
Cheers
Stan

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Your top courses in Ireland / No. Ireland ?
« Reply #61 on: August 08, 2003, 01:59:47 PM »
That's the point in a nutshell, Matt.  Skill plays a much smaller role at TOC than anywhere else.  If that bothers you, then stay away.  It doesn't bother everyone, that's all.  Me, I'm happy to have TOC as it is - I can have my skill or lack thereof rewarded or not anywhere else.  What's wrong with a little variety?

Just to drag up Darren's favorite topic yet again, how in God's name do you reconcile this statement with the roster of champions and also rans at TOC?

I think you are really minimizing the role of skill. In a bad way, too. I know you don't mean anything bad, but so many great minds have sung the praises of TOC (pretty much everyone except Rich G & Scott Hoch) that I can't really put much credence in your view.

I don't think it's simply preference, either.

And just to pick on you a little more  :) - you're agreeing with Mr. Ruttenberg that Lahinch is nothing more than a historical footnote?

Yikes, now I know how Gray got elected - & re-elected!!  :)
« Last Edit: August 08, 2003, 02:00:17 PM by George Pazin »
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Norbert P

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Your top courses in Ireland / No. Ireland ?
« Reply #62 on: August 08, 2003, 02:20:37 PM »
 I dunno.  If I went to Dublin I think I'd have to explore the Trinity Library.

http://www.renaissancelibrary.com/Trinity_Dublin_60.jpg

Nice post Tim Weiman.
"Golf is only meant to be a small part of one’s life, centering around health, relaxation and having fun with friends/family." R"C"M

Ville Nurmi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Your top courses in Ireland / No. Ireland ?
« Reply #63 on: August 09, 2003, 03:00:32 AM »
The library is really nice!!
Skip the book of Kells and spend some time upstairs.
I liked Royal Dublin.
I think the views to the harbour are not so distracting. You only see them playing home. And not from all holes.
And I think one of the tall chimneys belongs to a power plant which has some part in Irish history. Maybe first independent investment in 1920΄s or something.
The course is straightforward. Colt designed it, but many of the holes have been altered and the membership will vote this autumn for a bigger restoration/refurbishment!

Best,

Ville

Matt_Ward

Re:Your top courses in Ireland / No. Ireland ?
« Reply #64 on: August 14, 2003, 10:58:51 AM »
Gentlemen:

For those who know and can assist it seems I will have an extra day while in the area of Lahinch and Ballybunion. I would like to schedule another course or two that is of good quality that is in that area.

If anyone has any solid suggestions please post. Include as much detail as you can.

Many thanks ...

matt

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Your top courses in Ireland / No. Ireland ?
« Reply #65 on: August 14, 2003, 11:20:05 AM »
Matt, I'd tell many people to drop by Spanish Point...but from your posts you have attained the level of "no quirk" and "above average conditions". Spanish Point is a 9-hole gem, par-33 I believe. Just down the road from Lahinch. beyond that I do really believe you would enjoy Doonbeg. I found Doonbeg to be a tremendous site and nicely paced between dramatic dunes and softer pastureland holes. Some of the settings are absolutely the most wonderful I've ever seen across the UK and Ireland. The routing at Doonbeg is odd, but an endangered snail had its say in this.
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Matt_Ward

Re:Your top courses in Ireland / No. Ireland ?
« Reply #66 on: August 14, 2003, 11:25:39 AM »
Forrest:

I'll say this for the upteeeeeeeeeeeeenth time -- I don't mind quirk and I don't need Augusta turf conditions when I play.

I grew up on munis -- I just want quality golf that doesn't overdose on the quirk or the preponderance on getting lucky when playing.

Nothing more -- nothing less. Thanks!

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Your top courses in Ireland / No. Ireland ?
« Reply #67 on: August 14, 2003, 11:33:18 AM »
Then go see both. But, when you go to Spanish point you'll have to walk through a hall and to the bar to pay your few Euros. Look for a young member named Mikey ('Moose") — he was my caddie at Doonbeg and is interested in GCA. Cheers.
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Your top courses in Ireland / No. Ireland ?
« Reply #68 on: August 14, 2003, 02:43:05 PM »
 Matt
    I would think that Ballybunion-Cashen  or Tralee(which i have not played) may be good choices.But if these do not work out,i suggest you look into Castlegregory--a muni-type course at the elbow of the Dingle Peninsula.
   This would give you a look at what the locals play.
AKA Mayday

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Your top courses in Ireland / No. Ireland ?
« Reply #69 on: August 14, 2003, 03:06:35 PM »
I am a minority in terms of my like for both Doonbeg and Tralee — as you know, Matt, there are many here who pooh-pooh any "establishment" design; Fazio, Palmer, Norman, Jones, etc.

I do not consider the designer first when thinking about a course as I don't consider that root to be among the top in terms of importance.

Tralee is a wonderful site: "10" material. The design may be "8" or "9", but it is worth the visit. The Palmer staff has done an excellent job.

I liked Doonbeg better. I felt the design was more refreshing and equally dramatic. Your trip to Doonbeg uld be like visiting Pebble circa 1940. You will always look back and say, "I was there before all the development."

Don't let anyone tell you that Doonbeg or Tralee are worthless because they are new. They are every bit as exciting as many of the old "museums", in some instances even more relative to our world of new courses and what can be done in modern times to bring back many influences and traditions.
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com