Your top courses in Ireland / No. Ireland ?

[Matt_Ward]

I will be visiting Ireland for the first time (hard to believe given my father's family roots are in Galway) in early September and although I have reviewed a good bit of info on the best courses in Ireland / Northern Ireland I wanted to secure info from the gang here on GCA on the rank ordering of what you believe is the best golf in Ireland & Northern Ireland.

I have on my proposed schedule some of the usual suspects -

County Down
Portrush (Dunluce)
Portmarnock
Ballybunion (Old)
Lahinch
Doonbeg
*possibly The K Club and Old Head
Others?

How would people assess the courses above (and others) in order? If I'm mssing something please let me know because after talking to some people I know I wil be maxing out every day. Many thanks ...

P.S. How does the best of Irish golf stack up against the best of Scottish / English golf? During my two week adventure I will also be visiting Wales as per their promotion for the 2010 Ryder Cup.

[John_Conley]

Matt:

I found County Down to be far superior to Portmarnock and better than Portrush.  That may be due to the condition I saw them in and conditions I played them in.  I have not seen Ballybunion.

Reports are very mixed on Carne.  Ran called it awful, but others I respect say it is fantastic.  One Ireland expert suggests The Island Club.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Matt, the K Club is like any American course.  It is not necessary to play.  Old Head has spectacular vistas but the golf is a let down.  It is also a long way from anywhere!  I would consider The European Club.  While there you must meet Pat Ruddy, the owner designer.  He knows more about Irish golf than anyone--jusgt ask him.  County Louth is good and so is Sligo.  Waterville is good but it does not play fast and firm like a links course.  While at Portrush you might want to play the front nine at Portstewart.  It has some of the most wonderfully natural holes amid giant dunes.  Portmarnock doesn't knock you socks off like RCD but it is a great study in architecture that is subtle yet works.  The clubhouse is wonderful.  I would also suggest that you play a secondary course like Enniscrone or Balliliffen to drink up the local flavor of the Irish golfer.  They are a wonderful lot.  

If you are driving mulitply by two you driving time.  Getting lost is a national past time.  Have fun it is a great place!

[Doug Wright]

Matt,

Although it's not on the top of my list, I think you'd enjoy "the mighty Waterville links" (self-described). Plus I'd be curious about your thoughts about the course.

All The Best,

[Dan Grossman]

County Sligo (Rosses Point) and County Louth (Baltray) were two of my favorite courses on my Ireland trip.  I would not miss them.  I also loved the Island (just north of Portmarnock), but it is heavy on quirk.

[Michael Whitaker]

Matt - Can't emphasize enough the difference in travel time in Ireland compared to the States. As I said in a similar thread several months ago, double the time you think it will take you to get somewhere, then add an extra thirty minutes for the the "Tractor Factor." You will see more tractors (and/or sheep) puttering down the lane than you will believe... and they always seem to appear when you are in a hurry to get to the course.

As for courses... if you go north to Portrush you MUST go over and play Portstewart (Strand). The front nine may be the best in Ireland. When we were there in 2000 the locals liked to say that if you could marry Portstewart's front nine with Ballybunion's back nine you might have the best course in the world! And, now I understand they have added seven new holes on the back nine that also play through the dunes. I'd love to see some pictures and read a review of the new holes.

[Norbert P]

 Lahinch was my first scrape-around on the emerald isle.  Pre-resto.  I wish I could have spent more time there in town.  (Just north in Doolin is great craic at the pubs and you get to drive by the Cliffs of Moher).
  Count me as one of the lovers of Carne.  It is definitely a lesson in minimalism but that does not mean it is not naturally dramatic.  I agree with James Finegan that it is a true gem. It'd be nice to get an update on the 3rd nine as well.  It is remote but the drive is interesting through the boglands and it's not that far from Enniscrone.  Drom Caoin is a great B&B in Belmullet.
  Speaking of Enniscrone, there is some fantastic golfing land there, as well.  Reports say it is much improved with rerouting by Donald Steel from when I went 3 years ago.

  Narin & Portnoo !  If you want luck/unluck to be a factor, check it out.  A nice break from the greats that you will play.
It's low key, unpretentious and cheap.  You may even have a few cows to lob over.  Great views (beyond the corrugated galvanized sea mist barriers, not to mention the gauntlet of trailers at the entrance).  See some old Irish golf before they fix it up and make it all perty.  

  Have fun Matt.  I respect your eye for the courses you see and your critiques are interesting, well-considered and sound but don't forget to  let the whole of Ireland into ya.    Ahh, the Guinness... a loaf of barley in every glass.  

[grandwazo]

Royal County Down (the greens were not great last week, but I am sure by the time you arrive they will be fine)
Portmonock (didn't play, but went to see the Irish Open on Saturday and it looked great and in perfect condition.  #15 is one of the greatest par 3's I have ever seen)
Ballybunion (Old) (Just keeps getting harder and harder)
Waterville (In great shape, very consistent throughout, seemed to have different grasses than other links courses)
Old Head (only if you are willing to make the trip and accept that no golf course could ever keep up with the views)
Doonbeg (so you can say you played it before Norman fixed it)
All the locals we spoke with said that on our next trip we would find Portrush, Portstewart and Lahinch as good as if not better than any of the above.
As far as going against Scotland, my travel companions all wanted to go back to Scotland before another trip to Ireland.  Scotland is definitely easier to get around and the courses we have played there seemed to be just a notch above in overall quality, starting with the Kingsbarn's vs Old Head comparison in the "new" category.  If forced to however, I could easily play any of the one's I mentioned for the rest of my life and be satisfied.
Have a great trip!
Jeff

[JDoyle]

Matt,

I love Ballybunion and play in on evry trip to Ireland.  Glad ti see you have it on your schedule.  I would suggest you also play the Cashen or New course at BB.  It is bold and dramatic.  Some criticize it for being over-the-top and for not matching up with its older brother....but not many courses can.

I think Old Head is worth a look.  The course needs work but the setting is awesome.  It's like playing golf on the deck on the Titanic.  The drive out to the course has to go down as one of the best in golf.  Plus you can stay in Kinsale - one of the most charming towns in Ireland.  Great food too.

Bring a camera and post some pictures when you return so your friends of GCA can daydream at work.

[Raymond]

Tralee was one of my favorites when we were there a couple years ago. Watrerville was also a gem. We played most of the ones on your schedule and the two I'd most love to play again were RCD and Tralee. Have fun!

[Matt_Ward]

Sometimes the answer to a question can be carried out from reverse -- what are the most overrated golf courses in all of Ireland? I can hear the disdain a few have for The K Club and it's unlikely I would find Old Head very interesting -- say for the fact that it's views are thrilling.

I have been told by a few to bypass playing the new course at Ballybunion.

For those who don't know me I say this -- while I enjoy aspects of "quirk" I am not a rich lover of quirk that some here on GCA are. Given that it appears my venture to Emerald Isle will be most interesting because I can finally sense for myself whether all the hype is justified. Given the respect I have for those who have weighed in thus far I am eager to see them and launch a few.

[cary lichtenstein]

I would definitely play the new course at Ballybunion (Cashen). It got such bad reviews the first time I was in Ireland that I skipped it, but last year we arrived, and the travel agent screwed up and we were stuck playing the Cashen course.

Wow!!!!!! Don't miss it. It is way underrated. Frankly, I enjoyed more than Waterville, Dooks, Doonbeg.

I think its on a par with old Ballybunion, better than Lahinch.

Royal Couty Down is the best I've played. Old Head is the most scenic. Play Old Head for the eye candy.

If you have to leave something out, Doonbeg and/or Waterville would be my suggestions.

[Tom Bagley]

I would skip Doonbeg.  To me, it is an Americanized version of links golf:  caddies in white overalls; bunkers where the stairs leading out ought to have landings.  Cartoonish for my tastes.  Some have described it as wonderfully natural, wild golfing terrain.  That may be so, but I can't see Old Tom, Park, Jr., MacKenzie, Simpson, et al selecting some of those green sites.  

I would definitely make the trip to Waterville.  It is one of the best.  Tralee is worth playing as well.  One or two "unusual" holes, but a lot of good golf.  Beautiful place as well.  And as for Lahinch:  what's not to love?  Great setting, great green-sites and many, many great holes.  Absolutely wonderful.

Regarding traveling between courses:  if you can work it into your budget, it is well worth hiring a driver.  Our foursome did this, and it made our trip.  Not only did we have no worries about directions, getting lost, etc., our driver provided us with local opinions and commentary on Ireland and world events.  Very illuminating.  Since you will be playing alongside hordes of Americans at nearly all of these courses, it will be a nice break to speak with an Irishman.

[Doug Wright]

For those who don't know me I say this -- while I enjoy aspects of "quirk" I am not a rich lover of quirk that some here on GCA are.

Matt,

Because of your predilections as you described I did not recommend The Island or, in particular, Dooks. You might, however, like the main course in Killarney, Killeen, which is solid, straightforward parkland golf IMO.

All The Best,

[grandwazo]

Kiawah Land is very aware of the shortcomings of Doonbeg and will be closing down the course in September, reopening in March, to make what they feel are the initial changes required.  Whether it's increasing the size of the second green or recontouring the 4th green, or lengthening the par 5's, I personally felt the the piece of land that Doonbeg occupies offered the golfer the best potential overall experience in the future, the course is after all only a year old.  

To me, from my limited experience, Irish links golf is all about the relationship each course has with the sea, much more so than the courses I played in Scotland (I have not played Kingsbarns).  I am not talking about the elements, in particular the wind,  but the visual aspect that each Irish links course takes from the water.  The way Doonbeg interacts with the sea, whether it's the first look at it on the 4th hole or the 14th or the 9th, the visual aspect is outstanding.  While Ballybunion, both Old and New both offer outstanding holes bordering the sea, the holes that play along the trailer parks and "downtown" Ballybunion are not nearly as visually appealing as those at Doonbeg facing inland.  The relatively stark landscape, punctuated by solitary homes, in bright colors allowed the caddies to offer excellent lines to play both tee shots, position plays and shots into greens.  Many of the greens offered pin positions that would completely alter the shot required into the green and therefore the placement of your tee shots.

To me, only Waterville offered a similar experience with regards to the visual aspect of the holes playing along the water and those facing inland.

County Down only offers seaside views at holes at #2 and #3, but you know it's there throughout your round.  I did not play Lahinch, Portstewart or Portrush and only walked Portmonock, so I can't comment on them from a players perspective.  

I did feel that of the courses we did play, they all used a different mix of holes than I was used to in America, many more par 3's, back to back par 5's, etc and that the routing used at Doonbeg was more in character than out of character in relation to other Irish courses.  Scotland offers what I would consider a more traditional approach and I understood the flow of those courses better.  

With regards to Old Head, I felt that although the views were in fact absolutely spectacular, that the routing of the golf course and the holes would be more at home in the US and even though I thoroughly enjoyed the experience, did not feel it fit it with either Irish or Scottish links play.

[Mark_Rowlinson]

In a footnote you mention Wales.  I have to say that it is the the great bargain of British golf.  True, there is nothing to compare with Royal County Down or Ballybunion, but if you're in South Wales try to get out on Royal Porthcawl (Walker Cup 1995 - the sea visible from every single hole), Southerndown (upland course overlooking the sea), Pennard (see recent posts) or Tenby (vintage stuff with some blind and semi-blind shots).  

Along the west coast Aberdovey is a must, as is Royal St David's.  If time allows, Borth and Ynyslas (across the Dyfi estuary from Aberdovey) makes a pleasant stop off, with its good, honest links golf.  Aberdovey is a must not only for its highly individual architecture, nor its links with Bernard Darwin, but also (for Americans) because of its links with 'Lighthorse' Cooper.  They say that Royal St David's is the hardest par 69 in the world.  However, don't leave West Wales without playing Nefyn, spectacularly located on the cliffs above the beach hamlet of Porthdinllaen, and you can nip down to the beach pub, Ty Coch, for a swift pint in mid round.  

But you have now reached North Wales and a feast of entrancing golf awaits:  Bull Bay, a Herbert Fowler examination, sits on high ground overlooking the north coast of Anglesey, with few bunkers, but any amount of testing golf with cunningly raised greens and punishing rough.  Porthmadog is a personal favourite, a James Braid course with a wonderful back nine and magnificent views.  North Wales at Llandudno was a favourite of Henry Cotton, with several really characterful, old-fashioned links holes of the humpy-bumpy kind.  Maesdu, next door, is more inland in nature but there are majestic coastal views.  Then there's Conwy, my home club.  It's a long, flat links (6,900 yards + from the championship tees) with a wicked finish, tight through the gorse bushes.  The scenery is unsurpassed and there is no warmer welcome than from the professional, Peter Lees.  There is no fairway watering, so it can be very bare and dry in summer, and you have to be able to play the controlled, running approach shot.  Minor changes are being made to a number of holes in preparation for the British Boys' Championship in 2005 and final qualifying for the Open Championship in 2006.

As one of your other correspondents said, you will be playing with fellow Americans pretty well all over Ireland.  I doubt if you will meet another American on any of these Welsh courses and green fees will, in most cases, be significantly under £30 a round.  Above all, visitors are made particularly welcome.

[Matt_Ward]

Mark R:

Many thanks for the comments -- a number of courses you mentioned in Wales I will be playing. A few of the others I will certainly inquire about provided time permits me to do so.

[Jack_Marr]

I would include Enniscrone on any trip to Ireland. It's just superb. Much buisier these days, though. Nor would I pass a chance to play Lahinch. It's got everything.

Tralee, Royal County Down and Waterville have one thing in common - each has an outstanding nine. If you could combine the good nine from any of these, you would have the best course in the world, in my opinoin. Even combined with its "bad" nine, however, Royal County Down is the best course in the world.

If you are visiting the K Club, I would play the new South Course, which is supposed to be very good, although I hvae not played it.

Re Carne, well, I became a member there after playing it once, even though I have to drive across the country to get out. It's not the best course in Ireland, but probably my favourate. You have to remember that it's young, and did not have the money Doonbeg, Tralee etc had when being developed. With all due respect to Ran, he could not possibly know as much about golf as Eddie Hackett, who believed this course will eventually stand up to any comparisons. If he thinks it's awful, fair enough, but don't be put off - there are enough people that think it's superb to make it worth the risk.

On the new nine, nothing has been decided yet, although the plan was to start something at the end of this summer.

Other courses worth looking at are Little Island (Cork), Adare Manor, Carlow, Baltray, Murvagh, Portsalon, Cruit Island, Headfort (New and Old), Mullingar, Esker Hills, Connemara, Mt Wolselely, Coolattin, Carton House, Druids Glenn, Malone, Ballyliffin, European Club, Arklow, Hermitage, the Castle, Tulfarris, Rathsallagh....

[Eric_Dorsey]

RCD is thee best course I've ever played, by far.

Ballybunion was awesome.  As was Cruden Bay, even though it's in Scotland.

Lahinch was wonderful, a course I could play everyday for the rest of my life.  RCD maybe the best, but brutally hard with they're bunkers and gorse.  

Portrush was worth the trip, but much more sublte IMO.

Old Head blows!  great views, and with the exception of a few neat holes, you might as well be playing in the US somewhere.  I agree about Kinsale though, what a great town!

Didn't play Waterville, Tralee, and Doonbeg wasn't built yet.

RCD, RCD, RCD!!!  

hey...what about Ardglass??  I heard the TV announcers talking about it, they said it was great.  Any opinions here?

[MAPLE]

To echo some previous comments:

ROYAL COUNTY DOWN-  best front nine in world.  Weaker final two holes but still the best course/golf experience available.
COUNTY LOUTH-  not far from RCD and good course.
LAHINCH-  an Irish experience.  (as with RCD keep out of the
               gourse)
BALLYBUNION OLD-  great (except for front nine par 5's)
WATERVILLE-  have played many times and grows on me every time.   Worth the trip.
PORTMARNOCK-  Excellent test.  Subtle but marvelous links.

If time allows, please play RCD, LAHINCH, BALLY, and WATERVILLE twice each to truly appreciate, and perhaps even play in different weather conditions.

Enjoy the trip.

[Fred_Ruttenberg]

After many trips I have the following comments:
Ballybunion, RCD and Portrush are all world class(top 10 in the world). Any particular ranking of the 3 probably depends on the conditions of the days you play.

Portstewart (especially the front nine) is close behind.
European Club is a must play.
Lahinch play for historical purposes and skip thereafter.
Portmarnock-a vastly overrated course but you should play to form your own opinion.
Old Head-one of the greatest settings in the world for golf for an average course. The town(Kinsail) is great.
Co. Sligo-good but not great. A long drive probably worth doing once.
Ballybunion (new) a terrible course which should be skipped.
Druids Glen- a fine parkland course ,near the E- Club.
Mount Juliet and the K-Club-solid courses but not worth traveling to Ireland to play.
Co. Louth-excellent course on the road to County Down
Tralee-back nine makes this a must
Waterville-worthwhile just for the pleasure of driving from there to Old Head.
Cork-one should not miss a Mackenzie design. Parkland but great views.
 
In Wales Royal Porthcawl is a must. You would be better off going down and playing Saunton  and Burnham &Berrow.

[THuckaby2]

Seems to me Mr. Ruthenberg is right on, or at least I sure agree with darn near everything he says, based on my few trips over.

I'd only quibble re Ballybunion Cashen - I liked it more than most - but even it's most ardent fan Tim Weiman would have to agree it's an acquired taste so the quibble really is a small one.

Re Old Head, it's hard for me to say too much bad about it because the views and setting there are just about the most incredible on the planet.  We've discussed it many times before - yes the architecture could be a lot better, and yes it's a crime what they charge and how they treat the locals - but that being said, it just plain needs to be seen.  Not many courses give one vertigo - this does.  Great call re Kinsale also - another town that needs to be experienced.

I also always put in a good word for Castlerock, my cousin's home club... Oh, one ought not to forsake Portrush Dunluce or Portstewart for a round there, but if one does have time, it is well worth spending at Castlerock.

TH

[TEPaul]

RCD is in my top five courses in the world and Port Rush is not far behind it. I certainly don't know all the great courses of Ireland though--but those two are very special.

[Matt_Ward]

TEPaul:

I am shocked -- absolutely shocked -- to see that
you are now rating courses. RCD -- top five -- now I
K-N-O-W I must play it with that sort of recommendation.

[Gyrogolf]

I came across a strange little pitch and putt down the way from Lahinch toward the cliffs that is worth a look. Some of the craziest greens I have ever seen and quite a test of the sand wedge. If you can get around it in par you are a better man than  me.

Take the time to play some of the little community courses that are scattered all over the countryside. Ireland is a wonderful place and it is tough to really properly immerse in the culture if you are spending too much time at tourist destinations.

My first trip to Ireland, we blazed from one course to the other in a blind rush to see, play and do everything. But that misses the point, doesn't it? Part of the charm is the texture of Irish culture and how it fits perfectly with their brand of golf.

Stop in the little villages for a pint, play a quick nine and move on. There is more to life than putting notches in your boot.

BTW, You can gauge the size of each village by how many pubs. I figured it was about one for each 50 residents.