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Carl Johnson

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Or architect X's for that matter.  Now that http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,56274.0.html and http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,56249.0.html have petered out . . . .

Is this even an issue worthy of discussion on a golf course architecture website?  (I would expect it's already been discussed here a lot, so maybe those who are familiar with the threads could post links and save us all some time.)

The easy answer is that if the course claims to be a "Ross course," it is.  That's the clear answer from a marketing standpoint.  But, are there any factors that the objective observer would bring into play, and if so, to what extent?

Clarification added after Tom Doak's response, below:

As a starting point, any course originally designed by Ross & Associates is a Ross course in that sense.  What I am getting at is, how long can we continue to call such a course a "Ross course" after years of tampering by man and nature?  We can think of many ways this can happen, such as -

Massive tree planting

Replacement of a number of Ross's original holes with completely new holes

Greens grown smaller and more crowned

etc.

Interestingly, when I began on this site three or four years ago, I asked if there was some generally agree upon standard for how long it was appropriate to call a course "X architect's course" when it had been substantially changed by others over the years.  Tom replied, telling me that there was no such standard.  And maybe that's where it should stand today, but the two threads I've referred to above seemed to beg the question again, so I've raised it.


Rather that start out with thoughts of my own - which shall show up later if this goes anywhere - what do you have to say?

 
« Last Edit: July 19, 2013, 08:53:18 AM by Carl Johnson »

Tom_Doak

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Re: What is a Ross course, anyway?
« Reply #1 on: July 18, 2013, 09:10:53 PM »
Carl:

I hate it when asked to typecast the work of Donald Ross.  He was a great designer who worked for more than 40 years on 400 projects.  Trying to sum up his work in a few simple rules demeans what he was able to do.

Mark Bourgeois

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Re: What is a Ross course, anyway?
« Reply #2 on: July 18, 2013, 09:23:23 PM »
I thought where you were going with the title question was, how much Ross actually is in some of these "Rosses"?
Charlotte. Daniel. Olivia. Josephine. Ana. Dylan. Madeleine. Catherine. Chase. Jesse. James. Grace. Emilie. Jack. Noah. Caroline. Jessica. Benjamin. Avielle. Allison.

Carl Johnson

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Re: What is a Ross course, anyway?
« Reply #3 on: July 19, 2013, 07:55:04 AM »
Carl:

I hate it when asked to typecast the work of Donald Ross.  He was a great designer who worked for more than 40 years on 400 projects.  Trying to sum up his work in a few simple rules demeans what he was able to do.

Tom, see if the clarification I've added to my original post doesn't help.  In no way was I trying to typecast Ross's work.  I intended a completely different discussion -- but, obviously, I expressed myself poorly.  I've also changed the title, I hope for the better.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2013, 07:59:50 AM by Carl Johnson »

Carl Johnson

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Re: What is a Ross course, anyway?
« Reply #4 on: July 19, 2013, 07:57:00 AM »
I thought where you were going with the title question was, how much Ross actually is in some of these "Rosses"?

Mark, thanks, I guess I should have.  That's more to the point.  I'm going to change the title.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Carl:

So, this isn't about Ross per se, but about identifying the architect that's truly responsible for the course that exists today?

In practice, every club [or resort] that could possibly claim Donald Ross had anything to do with their course, enthusiastically claims the designer label, regardless of how little he was there or how much the course has changed since.  That's the nature of modern marketing -- use the most marketable name possible.

In practice, too, some of the architects who are consultants to these courses do their best to attach their names to the course as well, hoping to raise their own profiles by being mistaken as the real architect for the place, or at least as a successor to the famous Old Dead Guy.

For me, the two keys to attribution are (a) who did the routing ?  and (b) who built the greens ?  Those are the real DNA of any course.  Bunkering gets rebuilt and moved around so often on most courses that the credit becomes murky, and on many courses it's just window dressing anyway.  Greens are never window dressing, every golfer interacts with each of them.

If a bunch of greens have been shifted in position or rebuilt -- as at, say, Augusta National -- then there is some scope to start assigning multiple credits, but if there are several different guys involved, usually one would just fall back to the original designers as having done the majority of them.

As to whether Ross deserves credit for "Ross" courses, Brad Klein did his best to identify where Ross made site visits during construction and where he didn't, but no one has paid too much attention to that research, because nearly all the Ross courses we actually talk about are ones where he did make site visits.

Patrick_Mucci

When the routing is altered, that's a start

Mark Bourgeois

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Pat, how would you characterize Seminole?
Charlotte. Daniel. Olivia. Josephine. Ana. Dylan. Madeleine. Catherine. Chase. Jesse. James. Grace. Emilie. Jack. Noah. Caroline. Jessica. Benjamin. Avielle. Allison.

Carl Johnson

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When the routing is altered, that's a start

Agreed, particularly in Ross's case, because, as I recall, experts have pointed out that routing is Ross's greatest strength.  One question, which I am sure we (as a group) are not going to agree on, is how much of the original routing must remain.

A related question, Pat, is what about hole play sequence?  Assume each hole is routed where it's always been, but the club/course has changed the order in which the holes are played.  What then?  It could be a simple reverse of the nines, but it could also be a more radical change.  Is hole play sequence part of "routing" when we say "routing," or is it something different?  In either case, how important is hole play sequence to the purity of the "original design"?  (Not solely for Ross, but for the origninal design of any architect.)

Another related question.  Ross did not move much dirt.  Say that although the starting and end points and centerline of a hole remains the same, but a subsequent "redo" architect with the money and today's equipment regrades the fairway somewhat to eliminate many of the natural humps and bumps and soften the grades a little.  Do those change the routing?  Or do they do something else?  And how important is the minimalist nature of a Ross course to the Ross design?
« Last Edit: July 19, 2013, 10:20:10 AM by Carl Johnson »

Carl Johnson

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Carl:

So, this isn't about Ross per se, but about identifying the architect that's truly responsible for the course that exists today?

Correct.  That is the question I intended to pose.

In practice, every club [or resort] that could possibly claim Donald Ross had anything to do with their course, enthusiastically claims the designer label, regardless of how little he was there or how much the course has changed since.  That's the nature of modern marketing -- use the most marketable name possible.

Understood and agreed.  I have no problem with that, and don't mean to imply otherwise.  My question is merely for the sake of "academic" discussion.

In practice, too, some of the architects who are consultants to these courses do their best to attach their names to the course as well, hoping to raise their own profiles by being mistaken as the real architect for the place, or at least as a successor to the famous Old Dead Guy.

For me, the two keys to attribution are (a) who did the routing ?  and (b) who built the greens ?  Those are the real DNA of any course.  Bunkering gets rebuilt and moved around so often on most courses that the credit becomes murky, and on many courses it's just window dressing anyway.  Greens are never window dressing, every golfer interacts with each of them.

If a bunch of greens have been shifted in position or rebuilt -- as at, say, Augusta National -- then there is some scope to start assigning multiple credits, but if there are several different guys involved, usually one would just fall back to the original designers as having done the majority of them.

Personally, my preference would be for the course itself to identify the original designer, and any subsequent significant designers (which to me implies more than being a consultant).  For example, if Ross did the original design in 1927, and then architect H.D. Doody made "significant changes" (whatever you take that to mean) to the course in 1998, I would prefer the course identify the designers as follows: Architects: Donald Ross, 1927; H.D. Doody, 1998.  Just my preference to give credit where credit is due.

As to whether Ross deserves credit for "Ross" courses, Brad Klein did his best to identify where Ross made site visits during construction and where he didn't, but no one has paid too much attention to that research, because nearly all the Ross courses we actually talk about are ones where he did make site visits.

From my viewpoint, whether Ross did nor did not visit the site - ever - although important to know, would not be a key factor in calling a course a Ross course.  During his prolific period, Ross had a team (Donald Ross & Associates - including Hatch, McGovern, Johnson [no relation to me!]), as do many "architects" today.  My understanding is that in many cases Ross would lay out the routing based on a topo of the property, and maybe some other features, but leave the details to other members of the team on site.  Still, originally a "Ross course."
« Last Edit: July 19, 2013, 10:08:25 AM by Carl Johnson »

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1

Carl:

In practice, too, some of the architects who are consultants to these courses do their best to attach their names to the course as well, hoping to raise their own profiles by being mistaken as the real architect for the place, or at least as a successor to the famous Old Dead Guy.

For me, the two keys to attribution are (a) who did the routing ?  and (b) who built the greens ?  Those are the real DNA of any course.  Bunkering gets rebuilt and moved around so often on most courses that the credit becomes murky, and on many courses it's just window dressing anyway.  Greens are never window dressing, every golfer interacts with each of them.

If a bunch of greens have been shifted in position or rebuilt -- as at, say, Augusta National -- then there is some scope to start assigning multiple credits, but if there are several different guys involved, usually one would just fall back to the original designers as having done the majority of them.

Personally, my preference would be for the course itself to identify the original designer, and any subsequent significant designers (which to me implies more than being a consultant).  For example, if Ross did the original design in 1927, and then architect H.D. Doody made "significant changes" (whatever you take that to mean) to the course in 1998, I would prefer the course identify the designers as follows: Architects: Donald Ross, 1927; H.D. Doody, 1998.  Just my preference to give credit where credit is due.

The problem with that is, who speaks for the course?  For a new resort like Bandon Dunes it's an easy question, but the answer would have varied over the years at a course as good as Royal Melbourne about whether to credit Alex Russell or Mick Morcom alongside Dr. MacKenzie.  In fact, the answer would still vary, depending on whom you asked there.

The other problem is that it encourages consulting architects to make changes "significant" enough to get a credit for themselves.  I was talking about that with Ian Andrew a week ago; we both feel strongly that subsequent architects should NOT get credit unless the routing is overhauled or a new set of greens is built.  In fact, I wouldn't feel right putting my name on the Country Club of Detroit, where we just DID change all 18 greens a couple of years ago.  I think it was an improvement to the course, but I wouldn't call it "my design".



As to whether Ross deserves credit for "Ross" courses, Brad Klein did his best to identify where Ross made site visits during construction and where he didn't, but no one has paid too much attention to that research, because nearly all the Ross courses we actually talk about are ones where he did make site visits.

From my viewpoint, whether Ross did nor did not visit the site - ever - although important to know, would not be a key factor in calling a course a Ross course.  During his prolific period, Ross had a team (Donald Ross & Associates - including Hatch, McGovern, Johnson [no relation to me!]), as do many "architects" today.  My understanding is that in many cases Ross would lay out the routing based on a topo of the property, and maybe some other features, but leave the details to other members of the team on site.  Still, originally a "Ross course."

I've done a couple of projects where the routing stayed essentially the same from one I had done before visiting the site, but it's rare that happens.  Plus, do you really know whether Ross did all the routings, for projects he didn't bother to go and see?  I think it's okay to credit him for those courses, since they were done by his company and we have no idea who if anyone else should get partial credit, but that's no different than all the modern signature designs where we don't really know who did what.




Patrick_Mucci



Pat, how would you characterize Seminole?

Mark,

I'd characterize it as a pure Donald Ross course for 17 holes with an adjustment by Dick Wilson on the 18th hole.

Basically, Wilson shifted the 18th green about 60 yards to the East.

The routing remains intact throughout the round


Mark Bourgeois

  • Karma: +0/-0
Patrick,

Not just 18 green; 3 green is not original, either:
http://golfcoursehistories.com/SGC3green.html
Charlotte. Daniel. Olivia. Josephine. Ana. Dylan. Madeleine. Catherine. Chase. Jesse. James. Grace. Emilie. Jack. Noah. Caroline. Jessica. Benjamin. Avielle. Allison.

Patrick_Mucci

Patrick,

Not just 18 green; 3 green is not original, either:
http://golfcoursehistories.com/SGC3green.html


Mark, # 3 green was merely extended back further.
# 18 green was moved a considerable distance to the East and play of the hole altered considerably.

Not so with # 3.


Tyler Kearns

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Patrick,

Not just 18 green; 3 green is not original, either:
http://golfcoursehistories.com/SGC3green.html


Mark, # 3 green was merely extended back further.
# 18 green was moved a considerable distance to the East and play of the hole altered considerably.

Not so with # 3.


Pat,

Comparing the aerials provided by Mark, the present 3rd green at Seminole resides immediately behind the original location.  I have no idea who was responsible for the alteration, but it is clearly not Ross' original green.

TK

Patrick_Mucci

Tyler,

We know that.

But the modification is minor in nature.

John Ezekowitz

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So would Belmont CC be considered no longer a Ross because it lost 6 holes when Route 2 got built? Would two thirds of a routing fall below the threshold?

Jim Nugent

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Did Wilson's adjustment make Seminole better?  Worse? 

Patrick_Mucci

John,

You sure can tell the difference at Belmont, can't you ?

I think you have to list both architects at Belmont.

Jim,

My  opinion is that Wilson's tweak enhanced the course as # 18 is now a terrific finishing hole

Carl Johnson

  • Karma: +0/-0

. . . .

Carl: Personally, my preference would be for the course itself to identify the original designer, and any subsequent significant designers (which to me implies more than being a consultant).  For example, if Ross did the original design in 1927, and then architect H.D. Doody made "significant changes" (whatever you take that to mean) to the course in 1998, I would prefer the course identify the designers as follows: Architects: Donald Ross, 1927; H.D. Doody, 1998.  Just my preference to give credit where credit is due.

Tom: The problem with that is, who speaks for the course?  For a new resort like Bandon Dunes it's an easy question, but the answer would have varied over the years at a course as good as Royal Melbourne about whether to credit Alex Russell or Mick Morcom alongside Dr. MacKenzie.  In fact, the answer would still vary, depending on whom you asked there.

Carl: Unfortunately, the course cannot speak for itself, at least not in the literal sense.  I have no problem with the course owners saying whatever they wish.  If owned a course, I would want to be able to designate, market it, with the architect(s) of my choosing.  But then as a golfer, just as a matter of interest, I can draw my own conclusions.  One approach, and this is just for fun, remember, is to try to decide if the original architect would agree that the subsequent changes did not take the course away from him.

Tom: The other problem is that it encourages consulting architects to make changes "significant" enough to get a credit for themselves.  I was talking about that with Ian Andrew a week ago; we both feel strongly that subsequent architects should NOT get credit unless the routing is overhauled or a new set of greens is built.  In fact, I wouldn't feel right putting my name on the Country Club of Detroit, where we just DID change all 18 greens a couple of years ago.  I think it was an improvement to the course, but I wouldn't call it "my design".

Carl: Eminently reasonable.  I agree that routings and greens are fundamentals.

Tom: As to whether Ross deserves credit for "Ross" courses, Brad Klein did his best to identify where Ross made site visits during construction and where he didn't, but no one has paid too much attention to that research, because nearly all the Ross courses we actually talk about are ones where he did make site visits.

Carl: From my viewpoint, whether Ross did nor did not visit the site - ever - although important to know, would not be a key factor in calling a course a Ross course.  During his prolific period, Ross had a team (Donald Ross & Associates - including Hatch, McGovern, Johnson [no relation to me!]), as do many "architects" today.  My understanding is that in many cases Ross would lay out the routing based on a topo of the property, and maybe some other features, but leave the details to other members of the team on site.  Still, originally a "Ross course."

Tom: I've done a couple of projects where the routing stayed essentially the same from one I had done before visiting the site, but it's rare that happens.  Plus, do you really know whether Ross did all the routings, for projects he didn't bother to go and see?  I think it's okay to credit him for those courses, since they were done by his company and we have no idea who if anyone else should get partial credit, but that's no different than all the modern signature designs where we don't really know who did what.

Carl: Unfortunately we don't know a lot about Ross's work from his own records because many, if not most, were destroyed after his death.  My starting point, like yours, as I understand it, is that if the architect's organization did the original work, the head of the organization is correctly identified as the architect - assuming that the organization itself puts it that way.

But then I come back to the question of how the evolution of the course affects my own view of whether it continues to reasonably reflects the original's work, either in whole or in part.  Obviously, I don't see this as a black and white issue -- far, far from it.



Carl Johnson

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Focus on routing.  The escence, I assume, is, for a hole, the tee location, green location, and centerline in between.  To what extent does the term "routing" also imply the order in which all 18 holes will be played?  To what extent does the term "routing" also apply to shape of the ground?  For example, if as part of a "redo," the redo architect changes the shape of the ground left by the original architect, has the redo architect changed the routing?

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Focus on routing.  The escence, I assume, is, for a hole, the tee location, green location, and centerline in between.  To what extent does the term "routing" also imply the order in which all 18 holes will be played?  To what extent does the term "routing" also apply to shape of the ground?  For example, if as part of a "redo," the redo architect changes the shape of the ground left by the original architect, has the redo architect changed the routing?

Don't understand what you mean by "changing the shape of the ground".

Changing the order of holes played can change the feel of the round, but it's not an architectural change.  Or do you think Mike Davis was trying to get on the credit roll with me and Jack at Sebonack by moving #1 to #9 ?  ;)

Carl Johnson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Focus on routing.  The escence, I assume, is, for a hole, the tee location, green location, and centerline in between.  To what extent does the term "routing" also imply the order in which all 18 holes will be played?  To what extent does the term "routing" also apply to shape of the ground?  For example, if as part of a "redo," the redo architect changes the shape of the ground left by the original architect, has the redo architect changed the routing?

Don't understand what you mean by "changing the shape of the ground".

I mean this.  When the original architect finished the course the fairways had certain ground shapes.  For example, in the 1920s the architect does not have the equipment or funds to change the lay of the land much.  So, the fairways are left pretty much like he found the land, with all of the ups and downs, bumps and lumps.  We can speculate that if he'd had the equipment and/or funds, he might have changed the land, but we only have what in fact was left when the course was completed.  Many years later another architect comes along and does a course restoration/renovation, and in the process uses earth moving equipment to smooth lumps and bumps in the fairways, and to do some general regrading so that the uphills and downhills are not as steep and the low points are not as deep.  Do such changes result in "routing changes"?  They are changes, but would you call them changes of a different sort, not routing changes, and if so, are they architectural changes (I'd think so)?  I am assuming for the sake of this discussion that the tees, green sites and centerlines of the fairways remain unchanged.

Changing the order of holes played can change the feel of the round, but it's not an architectural change.  Or do you think Mike Davis was trying to get on the credit roll with me and Jack at Sebonack by moving #1 to #9 ?  ;)  Nope, did not have that in mind.  However, I now see the distinction between architectural changes vs. playing order changes not being a part of the architecture.  Seems obvious now that you say it, but I had not focused on it that way.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2013, 11:54:39 AM by Carl Johnson »

Patrick_Mucci

Carl,

In the 1920's, they had all the equipment needed to move dirt.

They chose not to for philosophical reasons.

Carl Johnson

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Carl,

In the 1920's, they had all the equipment needed to move dirt.

They chose not to for philosophical reasons.


To me, then, your point of view confirms that the changes would be architectural (which is my view as well), but would they fall within a generally accepted definition of "routing" changes?  Or are they something else?  That is what I am driving at.  Reason: when we talk about "routings" on this site, I'm trying to get a clearer idea of what we are talking about.  Of course, I am also assuming that there is among architects and other interested persons such a generally accepted definition.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2013, 12:31:07 PM by Carl Johnson »