[Dan Herrmann]

Is Pete Dye the most important figure in GCA, post WWII?

I think so.  In my mind, he rescued us from the GCA "dark ages" and ushered in a new are of what I'll call "roots" GCA.  What think you?

[Matt Kardash]

Not to be a shit, but I think we are running out of ideas for this message board because I feel like this concept gets discussed at least once every other year. Not that I am coming up with better topics or anything...

[Dan Herrmann]

Matt - OK - Let me pose the opposite question.  Is Dye a crazy, overbunkering fool that built courses that aren't fun and changed GCA from an era of beautiful landscape architecture-driven design into a wild, wild mindset that didn't capture the goal of great GCA at all?

Obviously, I fully support the idea posed in post #1.

[David_Elvins]

Is Pete Dye the most important figure in GCA, post WWII?

Tom Doak is.

And Pete Dye gets a lot of referred credit because Doak worked for him.

Without that, this board would rate Dye alongside Trent Jones and Cornish.

[Ally Mcintosh]

If you subscribe to the theory that the best courses are almost always by design companies that also build, then the answer is probably yes...

[Carl Rogers]

What do you care to measure?

The legacy of PD may measured by the people and ideas that he influenced and inspired more than his actual work.

[Terry Lavin]

Not everything should be reducible to a "best" sort of a list. Having said that, PD is an iconic, trailblazing figure on this landscape who has made enormous contributions to the art and craft of gca.

[Ronald Montesano]

GCA and gca are better with Pete Dye than without him.

As far as living figure, he may be. Both his courses and his influence did rejuvenate the industry, the game and the profession.

[Jeff_Brauer]

I think so.

Really, of all the architects, whose work stands out the most as a departure from the norm?  Whose work changed the architectural landscape and influenced the most amount of architects, either towards or away?

At the very least, I recall the article in GD, and the TPC, etc. as being truly ground breaking.  And while he professed to copy Scotland, it was a really unique look.  Far more than say, CC copying (or being influenced by...) the early American courses.  Or Fazio's "improved" version/vision of early American or traditional architecture.

Its just a gut feel, but I simply recall even more discussion and rush by architects to see that work than even the new wave of minimalism today, even if just a bit.  And when you consider the amped up coverage of architecture now, that "little bit" really translates to a lot.

Of course, I am claiming my old guy rights to dismiss any young un's opinions if they weren't there........

[Tom_Doak]

Is Pete Dye the most important figure in GCA, post WWII?

Tom Doak is.

And Pete Dye gets a lot of referred credit because Doak worked for him.

Without that, this board would rate Dye alongside Trent Jones and Cornish.

David:

I appreciate the vote of confidence, but I think Mr. Dye is the most important figure.  When I started out, EVERYONE in the golf business told me that he was the guy to work for, and it was only because I worked for him that I have any idea how to do what I do.  Almost everything I've done, from taking charge of the construction end to going against the grain of what everyone else was doing and not being afraid to be controversial, is a reflection of what I saw Pete do and what he told me about his own success.

The only thing I've really done differently is run a payroll, and more and more I can see the wisdom in why Pete didn't. 

[Tom_Doak]

I think so.

Really, of all the architects, whose work stands out the most as a departure from the norm?  Whose work changed the architectural landscape and influenced the most amount of architects, either towards or away?

At the very least, I recall the article in GD, and the TPC, etc. as being truly ground breaking.  And while he professed to copy Scotland, it was a really unique look.  Far more than say, CC copying (or being influenced by...) the early American courses. 

Jeff:

While I agree with you generally, I don't agree so much with your third paragraph. 

Pete's work was a throwback to Seth Raynor and Bill Langford.  He sold it as being Scottish -- and the railroad ties were a big help in that -- but the bunkering and featuring is straight out of the courses he grew up playing.

I will never forget taking P.B. Dye out to the National Golf Links for the first time, and hearing him say "this is just like my Dad's work."  He had no idea.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Tom,

I think we are saying the same thing - he professed it to be/marketed it as Scottish, but it wasn't really that. 

There was some Scottish influence - I played Prestwick with Pete and he told me that the straight line creek on 18 was a big influence on him just for being so different from the typical landscape architecture curves of the RTJ era.  Add in the sleepers and pot bunkers and there are elements.

But, I recall the story of Pete seeing some Langford work and thinking it was Raynor. 

So, maybe that is the definition of groundbreaking, taking many previously used elements in such a new way as to define a completely new style.  Hey, if he hadn't called it Scottish, I doubt many would recognize it as such.  But then as now, the fabled trip to Scotland sells if you are a gca.

Random thought for our Euro architect friends here.....do you have to tout that you have been to America or Australia to see the best to get jobs?

[John Shimp]

Without Doak Pete Dye would be rated alongside Trent Jones and Cornish?  First of all thats absurd.  Second its a pretty big slight to Trent Jones re Cornish.  Definetely a slight to Pete.  What a weird stratifying attempt...

[Tim_Weiman]

David Elvins,

Personally, I like what people sometimes criticize - minimalism - which, of course, Tom Doak deserves much credit for (even though I am not sure even Tom likes the term).

But, for what it is worth, Tom's comments regarding Pete Dye are entirely consistent with what he expressed to me in private conversation at some point. Thinking about "design" seems cool for non professional golf architecture junkies like many here, but as Tom said to me "you have to know how to build it" and that is what he learned working for Pete.

[Randy Thompson]

I think in a couple of years Tom Doak will wear that crown and were in a transition period from PD to TD. Pine Valley was percieved as the number one course for years without much room for discussion and is a temendously difficult course from what I hear. Dye took the difficult concept and put into practice and for me it started with Teeth of the Dog in the early 60īs and brought to life the diffiuclt concept with sucsess. Not sure if that came from Scotland or Pine Valley. It gradually became the major design theme behind many courses for up to forty years and used by the majority of architects. Many refer to this era as the Architorture era. This left the the door open for a new era which seems to be what we are living...minimal! The trick is pulling it off and making it still fun for all and not losing to many golf balls. That seems to be overcome by having huge fairways and huge greens with lots of internal movement and lots of land to work with and eliminate the housing. Its a good formula today but how long will it last and how long will it take to saturate the market...you tell me!

[Alex Miller]

Does important = good?

Could it actually be RTJ since much of what is seen today could be viewed as a reaction to his courses?

[Jeff_Brauer]

Alex,

I think having 20 unique courses directly attributed to Pete is more influential than 2000 in reaction to someone else......at least its more noticeable to the average Joe.

[Josh Tarble]

One of the other things about Pete...and this may be more of a reflection of the economy and opportunities available, but many of his best designs are public courses.  I would guess more people play his top designs than any other architect.  I don't think this can be understated, because of the sheer quantity of players his work has touched.

[Jim Hoak]

I think that Peter Dye is an important transitional figure leading from the dark ages of the '40's  to greater things.  In my mind he is one of the most risk-taking architects--some very good, some terrible, but always original.  In financial terms, he has a high beta.
But I would argue that the most important figures since WWII are Tom Doak and Crenshaw/Coore, who led us from the real estate development, sameness mentality of the '60's-'90's to natural, minimalist architecture--a whole new school of architecture not seen since the Golden Age of the '10's-'30's.  Dye helped us get there, but these others will be remembered in history as more influential.

[Jeff_Brauer]

With all due respect, Pete Dye blasted the sameness mentality out of the park. And, no one has been able to replicate his style, where by definition, CC are already replicating a style already seen.  It was a whole new school of architecture no one else has been able to produce. (or dared to)

Short version, do you smell but crack? (Add smiley face)  Your argument is flawed, IMHO, based on architecture you like rather than the actual question at hand.  TD and CC will probably end up close to Dye when history is written, but I doubt they will exceed him, with Tom having a better chance by virtue of one of, if not the greatest run of sites of all time, which I do truly think will never be replicated again.

[Peter Pallotta]

I'd imagine that the vocal reaction of tour pros to Sawgrass, coming when it did (in the growth of the game/television rating cycle) not only brought Pete Dye to the public consciousness, but also brought a lot of attention (in general) to all architects and to the art-craft of golf course architecture. What later architects and clients have done with that enhanced cache/higher profile is another matter, but there seems no doubt that PD brought that cache to the profession.

Peter

[Jeff_Brauer]

Peter,

Interesting.  Of course, RTJ did it with the US Opens at such places like Oakland Hills, too.  Ross got relatively lots of attention before that.  But, it does seem like each generation of archies gets a little more attention, just because there are zillions of news outlets on the web, TV, radio and still even in print that need content.

Most of the arguments/issues about gca seem the same from generation to generation, but the confluence of big money PGA stops, pros in architecture, etc. in the 1980's did seem to bring TPC to the forefront like few modern courses had been brought up before.

It would be an interesting discussion in itself....from our own admittedly faulty memories, what courses in each decade got the most ATTENTION, not were perceived as the best architecture.  Actually sounds like an old SNL skit where contestants had to agree with what a teenager might answer, not the real facts......

[Peter Pallotta]

Jeff - a phrase you used is exactly what I was thinking about, i.e. the 'confluence of big money PGA stops, tour pros...' etc. I think of Sawgrass as that specific and never before seen confluence of big-money-pro-game-television driven-American Barnum and Bailey-that's entertainment style-stadium golf architecture...and coming when it did it raised the profession to another level entirely.

Peter

[Tom_Doak]

Jeff - a phrase you used is exactly what I was thinking about, i.e. the 'confluence of big money PGA stops, tour pros...' etc. I think of Sawgrass as that specific and never before seen confluence of big-money-pro-game-television driven-American Barnum and Bailey-that's entertainment style-stadium golf architecture...and coming when it did it raised the profession to another level entirely.

Peter

Peter:

The first two years of the tournament did have a big effect on one young architecture student, who got to spend a lot of time on site with Pete Dye those weeks.

[Terry Lavin]

With all due respect, Pete Dye blasted the sameness mentality out of the park. And, no one has been able to replicate his style, where by definition, CC are already replicating a style already seen.  It was a whole new school of architecture no one else has been able to produce. (or dared to)

Well said.

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