Trump International Golf Links profile is posted ...

[Niall C]

Niall,

   I disagree a bit and think it nitpicking to declare them "abrupt." The immense scale of those dune do not permit, nor promote a flat horizon front in most green sites. Absent artificially pushing tons more dirt, and sculpting down the magnificent dunescapes, getting any more of an "au natural" out of holes would be ridiculous. Holes 3,4(unless you want constant flooding  )6, 8, 9,13,14,15 and 17 are prime examples. Some of these are "pocketed"nicely into the dunes, others slightly raised against what must have been the previous ground elevations. This latter feature is found everywhere throughout prominent Scottish and Irish links only their "toe-ins" have been laying there for over a century or so....plenty of time to settle and provide a better aesthetic fit.

  While certainly far from anything flat, this property screams for green sites that find their location hard by and beneath the shadows of those towering dunes. Muirfield, TOC, Dornoch and Turnberry don't have these majestic horizontal features to compete and contend with. Thus, it's much easier to find the horizontal "tie-in" that you pine for. All the wonderful GB&I links have a few pushed-up greens (Muirfield has a large # ).

   If you want a look that ties in better, I'd suggest those will be on the 2nd course that routes around and through the Balmedie Dunes.
We golfers are fortunate to have, if it's going to exist in this property, a course whose features fit so pleasantly among such a dramatic setting.

  Lastly, this whole debate over the use of ryegrass is moot going forward as it was used as overseed to get the course ready for it's(a tad too early ) opening. Over time I'd predict that the fairways will be fescue.

Steve

I'm not sure how you can say its nitpicking when its fairly obvious anywhere you look. With regards to "artificially" moving tons of sand, do you appreciate how much they shifted to make the golf course. Did you see the site beforehand ? The point is not how much you shift but what you do when you shift it. In that respect they didn't waste much time trying to blend in, thats quite obvious. Putting a dry moat round most of the greens isn't really tieing in, do you think ?

Niall

[Patrick_Mucci]

Niall,

I haven't had the benefit of seeing the site pre and post golf course.

But, Is the finished product and not the "process" the critical element in evaluating the merits of any course ?

[Josh Bills]

 "Yet, without the occasional blind shot the traditionalist won’t feel connected to the dunescape like he will at gems like Prestwick and Rye. Conversely, too many blind shots and courses become ill-suited for hosting major events." Ran's comments on hole 10.

As my number of posts reveal, I risk jumping in the deep end of the pool, but looking at the photos of the Trump course, I wonder if some of the areas wouldn't have allowed an Alps or Himalayas type hole to give the feel of an older world course.  Certainly there are major championships with blind shots and just wondering if a nod to one or more of those quirkier styles on a hole or two would have added any value, or at a minimum created a desire to return to play and try the shot again. 

[Sean_A]

"Yet, without the occasional blind shot the traditionalist won’t feel connected to the dunescape like he will at gems like Prestwick and Rye. Conversely, too many blind shots and courses become ill-suited for hosting major events." Ran's comments on hole 10.

As my number of posts reveal, I risk jumping in the deep end of the pool, but looking at the photos of the Trump course, I wonder if some of the areas wouldn't have allowed an Alps or Himalayas type hole to give the feel of an older world course.  Certainly there are major championships with blind shots and just wondering if a nod to one or more of those quirkier styles on a hole or two would have added any value, or at a minimum created a desire to return to play and try the shot again. 

Josh

No question for me, the design is too conservative.  There were a few places where the blind drive was on offer and the archie chose to walk the golfer to a more advantageous spot.  This is one of the over-riding doctrines of modern design which has gone too far.   

Ciao

[Mark Bourgeois]

"Yet, without the occasional blind shot the traditionalist won’t feel connected to the dunescape like he will at gems like Prestwick and Rye. Conversely, too many blind shots and courses become ill-suited for hosting major events." Ran's comments on hole 10.

As my number of posts reveal, I risk jumping in the deep end of the pool, but looking at the photos of the Trump course, I wonder if some of the areas wouldn't have allowed an Alps or Himalayas type hole to give the feel of an older world course.  Certainly there are major championships with blind shots and just wondering if a nod to one or more of those quirkier styles on a hole or two would have added any value, or at a minimum created a desire to return to play and try the shot again. 

Josh

No question for me, the design is too conservative.  There were a few places where the blind drive was on offer and the archie chose to walk the golfer to a more advantageous spot.  This is one of the over-riding doctrines of modern design which has gone too far.   

Ciao

Just to pile on:

Third, it appears many holes simply play through valleys or cuts in the dunes, with no meaningful interaction; furthermore, the relatively smooth fairways stand starkly in contrast to the massive surrounds of the dunes. Dunes like that, how can there be no blindness?

[Sean_A]

Mark

While I prefer some lovely choppy fairways, I don't think it is uncommon for holes thru dunes to have smoothish floors.  It makes sense to me anyway.  To be honest, there is plenty of challenge without the choppy fairways.  One or the other isn't a bad call.

Ciao

[Chris DeNigris]

I like blind just as much if not more than the next guy- I heart CB, and 15 had me at hello-but it's rare that I finish a course and think- "I really wish there were more blind shots"...to me it's a nice feature to have if it fits and it's not too pervasive- but I don't think it's a necessity for really good architecture.

It's not like there's not sufficient quirk just up and down the seashore  

[Josh Bills]

Chris,

I don't disagree with your premise that blind shots are not a necessity, but to me they seem more interesting versus all the elevated tees and sheer number of bunkers at TIGL.  To me shots like my second shot at 16 (Windy Gap) at Ballybunion Old I always remember and look forward to the day I can play it again.  Hopefully I will get the chance to play TIGL but just up and down the seashore while good may not capture what could be great. 

[William_G]

Josh,

I agree that holes are almost threaded through the site, possibly as per regulation, but at the cost of true greatness.

Furthermore, at the most pristine site of the 21st century, the turf shpuld be all fescue of some type for true links golf, I mean overseeding with rye is what ANGC does because they have no budget nor interest in being true links golf.

I look forward to visiting.

[William_G]

using fescue on a links course in Scotland is as basic as having sand in a bunker   

[Patrick_Mucci]

William,

Did you not read Steve Lapper's explanation ?

[William_G]

in reading all the comments on this interesting thread I noticed that Pacific Dunes and it's bunkers have been discussed aside from everything at Trump

PD has always been more rugged as it's bunkers are wildly cut and some exposed to the elements allowing the sand to move around

PD is not manicured including it's gnarly bunkers, and that is part of the beauty of PD, thanks to Doak

Trump looks very manicured, and I hope visit in a few years and then maybe there will be more fescue, but I have my doubts

[Jon Wiggett]

William,

I suspect that if they were not willing to wait for the fescue to become visually mature then I doubt they will be willing to go through a messy transition phase. The stupid thing is the young fescue sward would play as well if not better than the ryegrass mix in the first few seasons and definitely a lot better afterwards. To me it was a decision taken for visual reasons rather than playing characteristics.

Jon

[Paul_Turner]

Does Muirfield have more blind or obscured shots than Trump?

[Jon Wiggett]

Does Muirfield have more blind or obscured shots than Trump?

Paul,

Muirfield has multiple blind and semi-blind shots.

Jon

[Mark Pearce]

Does Muirfield have more blind or obscured shots than Trump?

Paul,

Muirfield has multiple blind and semi-blind shots.

Jon

But its critics forget them when they accuse it of being boring.

[Paul_Turner]

Does Muirfield have more blind or obscured shots than Trump?

Paul,

Muirfield has multiple blind and semi-blind shots.

Jon

Yes but how many does Trump have?  Quoting Ran's review:

Primary to any links is how well its holes interact with the dunes. Some golfers, especially low markers, prefer links like Birkdale and Muirfield where perfect optics are frequently provided. Yet, without the occasional blind shot the traditionalist won’t feel connected to the dunescape like he will at gems like Prestwick and Rye. Conversely, too many blind shots and courses become ill-suited for hosting major events. Hawtree did an admirable job walking that fine line so that both the old fashioned links lover and the modern player will both find things to like.

Could it be that Muirfield with its modest land is more "blind" than Trump?

[Jon Wiggett]

Paul,

Muirfield has two big blind tee shots that I recall on the 6th and the 11th where as Birkdale has only one on the 9th. I do not believe Trump's has even one where tees have been positioned to avoid this. I suspect that Trump's will be nigh on impossible to play in even a moderate wind from many of the tees which is not the case for the other two courses.

I am not sure that Ran is criticising either Birkdale and Muirfield though his explanation of his line of thought seems to be poorly presented and unclear. It could be read as suggesting the two courses do not provide the occasional blind shot which is clearly not the case and indeed it is the fact that Muirfield offers just about everything you could wish for in a links course that makes it so great.

This is why I find Ran's conclusion so puzzling as Trumps seem to lack many of the elements required for a great links course. No blind shots, poorly tied in to the surrounds, over bunkering, the fairway sward or the presentation none of which hit the mark for me.

 It is an interesting fact that two of the best links courses Muirfield and TOC are not set in large dune systems.

Jon

[Niall C]

Niall,

I haven't had the benefit of seeing the site pre and post golf course.

But, Is the finished product and not the "process" the critical element in evaluating the merits of any course ?

Patrick

I quite agree. But what I was discussing with Steve was Rans comments re natural beauty etc and Steve's defence (if I read him right) of lack of tie-ins due to how much sand needed to be shifted to make it work and was pointing out how much was shifted in the first place and therefore it wouldn't have been difficult to do that.

Now personally I don't fret too much about all that beauty stuff and how the shaping ties in with the surrounding landscape. I'm quite happy to have the course surrounded by caravan parks/industrial estates etc as long as the course itself is engaging.

However to me Balmedie is a very good course, might even make top 3 in Aberdeen, but the one thing that is slightly disappointing about it is that a lot of the holes have broad flattish fairways like so many modern designs. It really doesn't come off as a lay of the land type course. The only hole I can think of that does that is the long par4/par 5(?) 16th or 17 (sorry, rubbish at remembering hole numbers). By tying in the fairways to the dunes a bit better with some noses protruding into the fairway, it would have been a good way of introducing some lateral movement which I suspect a lot of the holes sadly lack (hard to tell given the shag-pile carpet style of the present fairways). Its the lateral movement that makes golf so interesting which is what Muirfield has demonstrated over the last few days. Hopefully Ran was taking notice.

Niall

[Connor Dougherty]

Niall,

I haven't had the benefit of seeing the site pre and post golf course.

But, Is the finished product and not the "process" the critical element in evaluating the merits of any course ?

Pat,
As I'm sure you could tell by my original post, I do think that the "process" is an important element of discussing the merits of a golf course. It's similar to the post Tom Doak made on your thread discussing the importance of minimalism. If this golf course had a total disregard for the environment, the local population, and scientists with knowledge on the issue, but the persistence to become victorious and build the golf course exactly the way it is today, then why didn't ______ golf course? Surely it could have been better.

As I also said in my original post, golf courses built during the "golden age" had the benefit of not knowing the consequences of their construction. They did not face the same environmental obstacles, and as a result, older courses had a better chance of succeeding. Today we need to be mindful of that process and critical of the golf courses that are built with disregard for the damage they are doing.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Connor,

What damage to the environment did NGLA, Shinnecock, Southampton, Maidstone, GCGC and Pine Valley cause ?

Ditto TOC, Turnberry, Troon, Prestwick, Muirfield, etc, etc.

Certainly NGLA is a manufactured golf course, but I fail to see what damage to the environment the construction caused.

While we're on the subject, what damage to the environment did the construction of the structures on Manhattan Island cause, and is the human race better or worse off because of that construction ?

Hard to imagine that 200 acres of a golf course has such an enormous impact on the environment

[William_G]

well said Connor...

The Machiavellian approach to building most anything these days and in the future is long gone.

[Jason Thurman]

While I think it's a bit obtuse to pretend that golf course construction doesn't impact the environment, can anyone actually contrast the environmental impact of Trump International with that of a "minimalist" course like Pacific Dunes?

[Patrick_Mucci]

While I think it's a bit obtuse to pretend that golf course construction doesn't impact the environment, can anyone actually contrast the environmental impact of Trump International with that of a "minimalist" course like Pacific Dunes?

Jason,

There's nothing obtuse about it.

If you want to get down to micro environments, I guess, walking the site would impact the environment.

But, on a larger scale, what damage was done ?

How does 200 acres out of 2,000, 20,000, 200,000 and 2,000,000 acres impact the environment ?

If Friars Head hadn't been built, and in its place, 70 or 700 homes built, how would that impact the environment,  comparitively ?

The notion that the environment is inviolate is absurd, unless you want man removed from the planet, and even then, nature itself destroys and creates environments.

[Niall C]

Patrick

I think you hit the nail on the head. There has to be a compromise. In this instance the compromise was made on the promise of six or seven thousand jobs depending on which side of the bed Donald got out of on any particular day. It would appear those claims were spurious to say the least.

Niall