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cary lichtenstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Americans don't get it about golf in America
« Reply #25 on: July 25, 2003, 05:15:20 PM »
Try it the other way around: be happy that you guys get it!
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

Mike_Sweeney

Re:Americans don't get it about golf in America
« Reply #26 on: July 25, 2003, 08:36:42 PM »

Could you please give us poor Scottish relatives an idea of the exclusivity of some of the places of which we oft speak??

FBD,

Of the many post by Mr Tom Paul, I always remember this series which may give you some insight into the history of some of the old clubs here in the US, especially the Northeast and Florida (the winter Northeast). http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=1518;start=msg29762#msg29762



PS The link may get cut off, so cut and paste that which is not highlighted.

stevencollins

Re:Americans don't get it about golf in America
« Reply #27 on: July 27, 2003, 03:09:56 AM »
To me, I think the answer to the question is that in America, most of the really great golf courses are completely out of reach of the ordinary golfer in regard to whether they can actually play it.  I read this board all the time, and I am just amazed by some of the assumptions that are made, because simply from a price or contacts-level, I will never, never get to play any of the great courses that are oftenn talked about.  I live vicariously through the posts on this board for all the great courses in the USA.  Never in my life will I get a chance to play courses like Pebble, Cypress, Merion, Oakmont, Pine Valley, etc.  I don't make enough money and my social circle doesn't have the connections that would allow me if I could.

England and Scotland have great courses that are truly public.  This country has great public courses that cost you over $150 a round.  Hell.  Most of us can't afford that.  And as a result, the great majority of American golfers define "great courses" differently because they only have their experience to fall back on.  It isn't fair to expect the average American golfer to be able to judge courses according to a standard that requires they consider courses they will never even see, let alone play.

Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Americans don't get it about golf in America
« Reply #28 on: July 27, 2003, 11:00:37 AM »
Is there anyone here that acutally believes that the Game's epicenter is in America?

I sorta get it. I mean NGLA, come on!

...
What do you think of the Average American Golfer, and please describe him!

One entry found for epicenter.
 

Main Entry: epi·cen·ter
Pronunciation: 'e-pi-"sen-t&r
Function: noun
Etymology: New Latin epicentrum, from epi- + Latin centrum center
Date: 1887
1 : the part of the earth's surface directly above the focus of an earthquake -- compare HYPOCENTER 1
2 : CENTER 2a, b, c <the epicenter of world finance>
- epi·cen·tral  /"e-pi-'sen-tr&l/ adjective

I would say USA is epicenter.. why not?  Its clearly America that's been shakin things up over the last century versus other locales in the world that have merely perpetuated the status quo old-world approach that most seem to associate with the game..  Why else would Robin Williams' HBO take on the game have been so real and cutting to reality.. an hilarious!

I played Friday on a fast and furious Mistwood set-up in 20 mph winds in the morning and at Highpointe in similar conditions in the afternoon, the wind blowing putts two feet further, and drives 30-40 yards down or across fairways.. I think most get it, its difficult at times, a sport, a game, against your competition, whether over nice manicured or rough venues.. you do it cause you like it, and have fun!
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Americans don't get it about golf in America
« Reply #29 on: July 27, 2003, 12:29:57 PM »
Steven Collins,

You say, "Never in my life will I get a chance to play courses like Pebble, Cypress, Merion, Oakmont, Pine Valley, etc.  I don't make enough money and my social circle doesn't have the connections that would allow me if I could."

I'm a 425+ pound, working class electrician from La Habra, California, what makes me any different?

The book that inspired me the most about golf architecture--my very first book--"The World Atlas of Golf" which I bought for $10.00 brand new, is worn at the edges from looking at courses I would never have the chance to see or play. I would always say to myself, "How do these people who write about the courses in this book, get to play them?" I was totally enthralled in looking at every one of those wonderful colored illustrations hoping, wishing, studying what made these courses so great.  I spent years dreaming of playing the one I looked at the most--The Old Course of St. Andrews, one of the GREAT places where anyone can go and play if they desire to go the distance.

GO THE DISTANCE!

When I say that I mean, go there to see what this architecture stuff is all about. You don't have to play to actually see what is going on either. I don't know where you live, but say if it was in Ohio, make it apoint to see all of the Great old Donald Ross designs that are seemingly throughout the state. If they are private, call up the superintendent and ask him if it would be ok if you got a tour of the course. I don't think for one second he would turn you down, not if you are wanting to see what kind of golf architecture the place contained.

I worked my ass off for 5 months solid-seven days a week, 12 hours a day to finally afford my trip to Scotland, which wasn't your typical 7-10 day excursion. It was 3 weeks of learning who, what and why the Old Course is, and the thing I found out the most is you don't even have to play to learn it! You can see much more by just observing! In that three weeks there I played only two of the biggies Carnoustie once, and The Old Course-four times. I played the Eden, New, Jubilee, Lundin the rest of those times because that is what I could afford, and then taking the rest of the time to go observe people playing the Old Course on every hole, everyday.

I came back more incensed then ever (This was 1996) and awaiting me was the boom of the internet, and the fact that there were actually people out there that had a love of this stuff just like me. Do you actually think for one second that the social circle of friends I have outside of the internet/the group I learned to play golf with, even have a clue how great the National Golf Links or Pine Valley really is? Of course not, nor will they ever simply because they "chose the blue pill over the red pill" which enables them to see why these courses are the way they are, as well as who made them.

Simply put, they don't care, so why should they ever want to play anywhere else in their minds other then the courses that are accessible to them. It is a bone of contention between one of my best friends, who actually thinks there is genius in the architectural tasteless designs of Ted Robinson's waterpresentations, and has no understanding of the stark natural beauty of Rustic Canyon, and its phenominal architecture. He is for the most part an American that is blinded by all of the bullshit, and thinks Augusta National is a Great golf course, yet has no idea why. (He hasn't even seen it in person)

In these 7 years I have been frequenting the internet, I have made friendships with people that go far beyond the ones that have known me my whole life. My cousin, who is like the closest person to me in this world, said to me last night, "You know how I feel about playing golf courses that are on television, and I said back to him, "Joe, with that attitude, I'm never going to be able to take you to any of the golf courses I tell you about, and that I hold so dear....." and that is the sad fact, I won't simply because as much as I love playing golf with my cousin, as much as he is trying to understand why these courses are so great, its still from the American mainstream mindset that it's gotta be good because its on television. It leaves a pit in my stomach.

So in closing, if you want to see them, you have it with-in your power to do so. The question is why you do want to see them. If it is simply because you want to add them to your list of courses played, well then, the list will remain short for many years. If it's because you want to learn whythey are great, well then the world is yours.

It can't get any simpler then that.

Norbert P

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Americans don't get it about golf in America
« Reply #30 on: July 27, 2003, 01:52:50 PM »
 Steven C,  "I feel your pain" and can relate to the point you make.  Sometimes it's tough to dream about some of these places and realize it would take a great amount of unearthly providence to make it happen.   I haven't given up on those mystical places but I have to be realistic and make sure I have a good BALANCE of dreams and responsibilities.  I think it's more important to explore our corners of the world and find joy in those unsung heroes.  If I play Husum Hills,  I probably won't talk about it here on GCA because it's a personal thing for me.  It will never make a headline, a 'must play' list, or a 'TOP 10,000' list or have a tourney that anybody would travel more than 20 miles to play.   This course is a simple niner in the hills with simple strategic architecture that I have learned much from and been inspired by greatly.  (It's FREE in the winter months, too.)  
   I've only played on a private course once in my life, by the gift of trusting generosity of an unknown benefactor.  Never say never because cool things happen.  

  That said, again, you make a great point that the best golf architecture in America is limited to us Joes and that
is sort of like only letting the upper class in museums.   It is a self-perpetuating segregation.  

  Now, that said, Tommy, with his immeasurable and unbridled energy, passion and single-minded desire has proven, time and again, that we all can make dreams happen if we have good focus on the goal.  That goes for anything, really.

  We just have to be careful and aware of what the sacrifices are.
"Golf is only meant to be a small part of one’s life, centering around health, relaxation and having fun with friends/family." R"C"M

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Americans don't get it about golf in America
« Reply #31 on: July 27, 2003, 04:11:57 PM »
Way to go Slag!

I should have mentioned something about you in there also. But you see, I think that is what I like most about this website. I have met people of backgrounds so different then mine, and needless to say, quite a bit more affluent. Some of them I regard in the highest order not for their wealth or stature, but because they accept me for who I am, and I know that has to be a sacrafice too! :)

A_Clay_Man

Re:Americans don't get it about golf in America
« Reply #32 on: July 27, 2003, 07:16:13 PM »
Since 1964 the town of Orland park Illinois has had the copyright to the phrase "world's golf center". Those words are printed on all police cars and uniforms. Also, all the water towers in town are shaped and painted to look like a golf ball on a tee. They arrived at this conclusion by counting the number of holes within a 12.5 mile radius. back then in totalled 500. In 1991 when the book i'm stealing all these facts from was printed it numbered over 1000. The book is "Chicago Golf The first hundred years" by Tom Govedarica

Mike_Sweeney

Re:Americans don't get it about golf in America
« Reply #33 on: July 27, 2003, 09:32:14 PM »
Tommy & Slag,

Let's not feel too sorry for Steven. He is about to enter Graduate School at the University of North Carolina, where he will have access to a very nice Fazio course (Finley) at rates that I can't imagine and golfing weather 12 months of the year. Oh yea, and he will be less than 2 hours from Ross Country at Pinehurst.

Steven,

As a former benefactor of the grad student rate at Cornell University Golf Course which has about a 4 month season for golf, I am jealous of YOU. These are the best days of your life coming up. Nobody in the real world looks at Grad School grades anyway. Take a few B's and play more golf.  :) My occasional access to a few nice courses, and the intense negotiations that I must go through with my wife to get these free passes, can't compare to the life you are about to lead !!
« Last Edit: July 27, 2003, 09:34:33 PM by Mike_Sweeney »

stevencollins

Re:Americans don't get it about golf in America
« Reply #34 on: July 30, 2003, 10:55:35 PM »
All,

Thanks for the replies.  Sorry its taken me a few days to get back to the board; I hope you are all still around.  Looking back, I think my original post came across a bit more bitter than I meant it to.  But, hell, that's what happens when you are an above-aged grad student, in big debt, and making a teaching assistant's salary.  You tend to think of the world though debtor's eyes, and that's bad, very bad.  Some specific comments:

Tommy:

Thanks so much for your post.  I took a lot of great spirit and encouragement from it.  I don't know when or if I may be in a world to go to Scotland, but it sounds so fantastic.  What I love about Scotland is the affordability of the courses.  Ireland, too.  Resort courses at $45 a pop.  Can't beat that.  I love the idea of touring a course: I had never thought of that, to tell the truth.

Slag:

You're right: you never know what will happen.  So, we'll just have to see.  And, as Mike says, I am getting access to what seems to be a pretty decent course.

Mike:

The fact you have the same name as my favorite KC Royal is a plus, but you nailed me.  It's true that I'm going to get to walk Finley M-W for $25.  I can't wait!  I'm also quite impressed that you would remember that about me.  Not like I've posted that much here!   :)

Thanks guys.

stevencollins

Re:Americans don't get it about golf in America
« Reply #35 on: July 30, 2003, 11:12:08 PM »
By the way, Tommy, the World Atlas of Golf was my first real introduction to the imagination of golf as well.  I need to get an updated version of it badly: so many of the courses in it have been so redone that the book doesn't help me anymore.

steve

THuckaby2

Re:Americans don't get it about golf in America
« Reply #36 on: July 31, 2003, 10:28:54 AM »
I was wondering if I would be mentioned here.

Tommy's post is so damn right-on, and so damn encouraging, that I really have nothing to add, other than the caveat that for me - and for Tommy also - this all started way before golfclubatlas.com, and although this is clearly the best of all forums we have (dis)graced, we ought to keep that in mind.

In any case, Tommy's so right - have the passion, have it for the right reasons, show the passion, behave correctly... and the golf world can be yours, beyond your dreams.  I know, that's not the purpose here and we need to be really careful about how we discuss this....

But to say I am eternally grateful to the MANY people who have showed me the light re this great game - me, a person of VERY humble origins with absolutely no means to make these things happen otherwise - well, that's the understatement of the year and just needed to be said.

TH

ps - Steven - I don't want to get you down, but Scotland and Ireland ain't cheap - at least not the "name" courses.  You don't want to know how much those cost these days.  But each place does need to be seen, and many courses are still quite inexpensive. Just don't expect to play anywhere you've heard of for $45!


Dan Grossman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Americans don't get it about golf in America
« Reply #37 on: July 31, 2003, 12:20:34 PM »
Steven,

As a soon to be graduate student, the other piece of advice I have for you is to play the US resort courses in the off-season.  I have been to Bandon Dunes in January, Phoenix in July, Indianapolis in April, etc...

The course conditions are pretty bad, but conditioning doesn't affect architecture...   ;)

stevencollins

Re:Americans don't get it about golf in America
« Reply #38 on: August 01, 2003, 12:11:36 AM »
Tom Huckaby,

My comment about the "cheapness" of golf was most likely naive, but was based on a recent experience in my doctor's office where I was reading some golf magazine that had a section on Irish resort golf.  Granted, they weren't the "name" courses, like Portmarnock, or Royal County Down, but they were fairly recognizable links (though I can't remember them off the top of my head) and the average cost for green's fees were about 40-70 bucks.   I think Ireland is on the Euro (I may be wrong) so that wouldn't explain it away in terms of exchange-rate, but I just thought about comparable "non-name resorts" in the states and I couldn't think of many that had green fees that cheap--they tend to be over $100.  I've also done some web searches on courses like St. Andrews and Carnoustie, and for a "classic" course, they are a hell of a lot cheaper than in the states.  Last I looked, the Old Course was at about 90 pounds--that's about 160 dollars, right?  The other St. Andrews courses were lots cheaper.  Carnoustie was something like 75 pounds.  To me, that's a bargain, when you think that American courses of the same caliber are well over $300 a round.  Of course, you have to get there!   :)

steve

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