Good club to be a former member of...

[A.G._Crockett]

With all the discussion of pace of play issues in golf, here is an excerpt from an email that came today from a club I used to belong to. 

"Pace of Play / Playing through
As a reminder, foursomes determine the pace of play; threesomes, twosomes, and onesomes should not expect to play through a foursome.  Foursomes may elect to let groups of lesser number play through at their sole discretion, based upon overall course traffic and pace of play.  This policy is consistent with the traditions and etiquette of golf."

So they not only do they plan for the club to intentionally not follow the Rules, but they don't know the definition of a foursome vs. a four-ball.  This is coming from a financially successful and prominent golf management company.  Is it any wonder golf takes too long?

[John Kavanaugh]

The kind of people who can not find three other members to play with on a weekend morning do more harm to the game than slow play. In place of the already tired "While we are young" how about "While we are't alone" or "While we use deodorant".  We do build and pay for the range for a reason. Hang out at the range and make some friends instead of being so selfish that you feel that your need to finish early is more important than the time you are wasting of four other guys with families who also need to get home.

[A.G._Crockett]

The kind of people who can not find three other members to play with on a weekend morning do more harm to the game than slow play. In place of the already tired "While we are young" how about "While we are't alone" or "While we use deodorant".  We do build and pay for the range for a reason. Hang out at the range and make some friends instead of being so selfish that you feel that your need to finish early is more important than the time you are wasting of four other guys with families who also need to get home.

John,
Thanks, as always, for the carefully thought-out and measured response.  Without your help, I would have never known that they were talking about singles on Saturday morning.  Hell, I thought they didn't even send out anything less that a group of three on Sat am!

I'll take a hard look at myself and the whole friends/deodorant/family issue, though I'm no longer a member of that club and you are off topic anyway.

And maybe you could put down the drink and not feel like you have to be an a*****e ALL the time.  Most of the time is plenty.

Cheers.

[John Kavanaugh]

I'd be surprised if I am the only person already sick of the WWAY campaign. I also just came off another GCA event where slow/normal play was the norm.

I am sincerely concerned that the people who are so all consumed about pace of play rarely enjoy a round of golf. I bet they are unhappy before they even hit the first shot. That can not be good.

[David_Elvins]

A.G.  That is sad.  Lets hope it doesn't catch on. 

JK.  Your obsession with your pace of play being the correct pace of play has been done to death...

[John Kavanaugh]

A.G.  That is sad.  Lets hope it doesn't catch on. 

JK.  Your obsession with your pace of play being the correct pace of play has been done to death...

David,

I never require anyone to play at my pace. I just don't enjoy letting the singles and doubles through but it sure beats watching them stand with their hands on their hips back in the fairway. Strangely enough I prefer waiting on the group in front of me to being waited on.

[A.G._Crockett]

A.G.  That is sad.  Lets hope it doesn't catch on. 

JK.  Your obsession with your pace of play being the correct pace of play has been done to death...

David,

I never require anyone to play at my pace. I just don't enjoy letting the singles and doubles through but it sure beats watching them stand with their hands on their hips back in the fairway. Strangely enough I prefer waiting on the group in front of me to being waited on.

John,
You should move to Georgia and join this club.  The Saturday am group is a bunch of fat guys in bad moods who only ride and who drink and smoke way too much.  The club charges $5 for a Bud, but they have flat screen HDTV's embedded in the walls over the urinals in the Men's bathroom.  You'd be PERFECT there!

[Bill_McBride]

At my club we have no tee times, even at weekend peak times.  Most everybody knows when there are set games where whoever shows up plays, and somebody chooses sides.  In the South we call those games "dog fights."

We don't have a starter or assistant pro hanging around the first tee keeping an eye on things.  Too bad, because sometimes you'll be out in a foursome and a string of two balls will come up behind.  I always wonder why there's nobody at the first tee putting those two balls and singles together.  The flow would certainly be smoother.  I HATE to let a two ball through when there's another right behind, so the answer is pick up the pace!

[John Kavanaugh]

AG,

What makes you believe that the fat guys at your old club are in a bad mood?

[John Kavanaugh]

It's human nature to chase down groups in front of us just like we do cars on the highway. I'm guilty of it myself.

I can't believe we are in to another slow play thread when this group has such a poor history at every GCA event. Why can't we let this go until we get our own house in order?  Kind of like the cart issue. Amazing how many carts show up on the first tee after a night of light drinking.

[Tim Martin]

At my club we have no tee times, even at weekend peak times.  Most everybody knows when there are set games where whoever shows up plays, and somebody chooses sides.  In the South we call those games "dog fights."

We don't have a starter or assistant pro hanging around the first tee keeping an eye on things.  Too bad, because sometimes you'll be out in a foursome and a string of two balls will come up behind.  I always wonder why there's nobody at the first tee putting those two balls and singles together.  The flow would certainly be smoother.  I HATE to let a two ball through when there's another right behind, so the answer is pick up the pace!

If you think that you can go out as a single or a two ball on a weekend morning then it's no wonder that you can't rally up any other playing partners. I really like the no tee times but it makes sense to have somebody keeping their eye on things or it can become a clusterf..k.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Outside of the club's colloquial use of "foursome", their policy is not breaking any rules.  

The USGA's take on priority on the course begins with  "Unless otherwise determined by the Committee", and it seems that four players in a group is the "determination" arrived at by the committee.

The second USGA concern is that "priority on the course is determined by a group’s pace of play". The club has made the determination that four players is their 'standard', but they are still in 'compliance' with what the USGA wrote because they allow for the four player group (their 'standard' as determined by the committee), "to let groups of lesser number play through at their sole discretion, based upon overall course traffic and pace of play",  which aligns with the USGA's own request that "priority on the course is determined by a group’s pace of play".

It may not be the most likeable policy, but it's fully in-bounds.  

[David_Elvins]

Outside of the club's colloquial use of "foursome", their policy is not breaking any rules.  

Jim,

The policy may not be breaking "rules" but it is contrary to the USGA rule book, is it not?  

It is a group’s responsibility to keep up with the group in front. If it loses a clear hole and it is delaying the group behind, it should invite the group behind to play through, irrespective of the number of players in that group. Where a group has not lost a clear hole, but it is apparent that the group behind can play faster, it should invite the faster moving group to play through.

[John Kavanaugh]

I was playing as a twosome with Mike Hendren when another twosome came up on us on the 16th tee where we had been waiting for the green to clear. I asked if they wanted to join us for the remaining three holes and they said "No, we would prefer to play through".  Hilarity ensued and they decided just to end their golf day there and drive in. I made them an offer they had no choice but to refuse. I will never understand the fear some people have with joining up.

[Sam Morrow]

I think everyone has good points here, I understand where A.G. is coming from but I see John's side of things also, there is nothing worse than that single or twosome who thinks everyone should part so they can get around everyone. That said this example is a private club and I always say that a private club can do whatever they want.

[Jim_Kennedy]

The club's policy says: "Foursomes may elect to let groups of lesser number play through at their sole discretion, based upon overall course traffic and pace of play.  This policy is consistent with the traditions and etiquette of golf."

Sounds like they are aware of pace, and aware that they can let any faster groups play through, whether those groups are made up of 1,2,3 or 4 players.    

[John Kavanaugh]

Golf is a different game with a gallery. Some of the poor play alone bastards suddenly get a rush when the have someone watching their play. They actually expect us to be happy for them as they showcase their games for us.

[A.G._Crockett]

The club's policy says: "Foursomes may elect to let groups of lesser number play through at their sole discretion, based upon overall course traffic and pace of play.  This policy is consistent with the traditions and etiquette of golf."

Sounds like they are aware of pace, and aware that they can let any faster groups play through, whether those groups are made up of 1,2,3 or 4 players.    

Fine, except that making a choice to simply NOT let faster groups play through, a choice that this "policy" confers arbitrarily on ANY group of 4 players, is NOT consistent with the "traditions and etiquette of golf".  The Rules are clear about that, and always have been.  

Not sure why that is so hard to understand, but I'm glad you guys have sympathy for the club management.

[David_Elvins]

I struggle to see how a 4-ball letting a 2-ball though is an imposition.

I suspect most of you aren't doing it right.

[John Kavanaugh]

I've never visited or been a member of a private club where unsocial behavior goes unpunished by the fellow members. All you have to do is talk to your fellow members and work things out. The pro need not be involved.

This policy simply looks like an attempt to get members to be more social by joining up for the benefit of everyone. It has very little to do with pace of play.

[Bill_McBride]

I struggle to see how a 4-ball letting a 2-ball though is an imposition.

I suspect most of you aren't doing it right.

What do you do when you step aside and let the two through, and as soon as you do, you look back and there's another two ball standing there waiting?

I would rather pick up the pace. 

[Tim Martin]

I struggle to see how a 4-ball letting a 2-ball though is an imposition.

I suspect most of you aren't doing it right.

What do you do when you step aside and let the two through, and as soon as you do, you look back and there's another two ball standing there waiting?

I would rather pick up the pace. 

+1

[Mac Plumart]

I was playing as a twosome with Mike Hendren when another twosome came up on us on the 16th tee where we had been waiting for the green to clear. I asked if they wanted to join us for the remaining three holes and they said "No, we would prefer to play through".  Hilarity ensued and they decided just to end their golf day there and drive in. I made them an offer they had no choice but to refuse. I will never understand the fear some people have with joining up.

[/i]

John...in this instance, I'm not so sure these guys wouldn't have joined up with another group of two.  It is just the fact that YOU were part of the other group!  In all seriousness, if you could avoid it...would you play golf with yourself?

 

[David_Elvins]

What do you do when you step aside and let the two through, and as soon as you do, you look back and there's another two ball standing there waiting?

Bill,

I wouldn't step aside whilst letting them play through.  If a group of two is playing at a good pace behind a slower group of four, they should arrive on a par 4 tee whilst the group ahead is approx 100-150yds down the fairway.  If the group ahead walks in the rough, they should not need to wait whilst the twosome hits their drives.  After the twosome hits their drives, the group of four arrives at their balls and hits to the green.  Then the group of two arrives at their balls and hits their shots to the green.  All 6 walk to the green and the twosomeputts out first whilst the others tend the flag, fix their ball marks etc.  Then they are off tothe next tee to tee off whilst the group of 4 putts out. 

I cannot imagine the group of 4 being slowed by more than a few minutes, sometimes not at all.

[Mike_Trenham]

I struggle to see how a 4-ball letting a 2-ball though is an imposition.

I suspect most of you aren't doing it right.

What should you do if there are all foursomes ahead of you and three twosomes behind you?  Two guys, a guy and his wife and a guy and his kid, none of which that want to play together.