Ross courses you should not go out of your way to play

[Carl Johnson]

Prompted by Chris Buie's suggestion on the http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,56249.75.html discussion of lesser known Ross gems, I'll start at the bottom of Chris' six categories.  One course that surely should be on that list is:

Asheville (N.C.) Municipal Golf Course

With lots of work, which I don't see happening, it might move up a notch.

[Ronald Montesano]

http://www.chqgolf.com/golf/proto/chqgolf/lakecourse/lakecourse.htm

I don't know that I'd tell anyone to go to Chautauqua JUST for the golf. If you happen to be there, opening your mind, and happen to have your sticks, and happen to want to play, both of their courses are nice. You could say that, after a 36-hole day, you had a Xen Ross experience.

[Chris Buie]

Glad you are handling this part Carl.

One I would not recommend going out of your way to play is Sanford CC in N.C. It's actually an ok course that I enjoy walking and it was $12 a couple of years ago. It's pretty much solid enough to enjoy yourself but nothing striking about it - so not worth going out of your way.
It's actually very close to Tobacco Road. If I was visiting and played Tobacco in the morning with nothing lined up for the afternoon I might head over there.

[Mark Saltzman]

New Smyrna

[Chris_Blakely]

The Hamptons GC, Hampton, VA course was decimated by highway construction

Bethlehem CC, NH (I know it was recommended on the other thread, but it was just OK for me and if you are up that far north in NH you might as well go to the Balsams)

Chris

[PCCraig]

Newton Commonwealth in MA
Indian Hill outside Chicago

[Mark Bourgeois]

Prompted by Chris Buie's suggestion on the http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,56249.75.html discussion of lesser known Ross gems, I'll start the bottom of Chris' six categories.  One course that surely should be on that list is:

Asheville (N.C.) Municipal Golf Course

With lots of work, which I don't see happening, it might move up a notch.

Carl, Michael J Fay calls it one of the least-changed Rosses. Only change has been relocation of one tee box. Yes, it's really run down and I'm sure today's version is an imitation of the original but that very neglect means it may very well be one of the truest Rosses on this or the other thread.

And considering the (negative) impact of money on course preservation, ironically more true Rosses might make this thread than the other thread.

[Howard Riefs]

Indian Hill outside Chicago

Indian Hill credits the design to Ross, Colt and Herbert Barker. 

[Carl Rogers]

Sewell's Point in Norfolk VA that is located at the Naval Base probably fits this category, though I have played there multiple times.  Very good value.  Several holes on the back nine are squeezed.  If you are stuck in traffic for multiple hours going west on I-64 (this is not a far fetched possibility), it is worth a quick nine.

[Mike Schott]

We are blessed with many Ross tracks in the metro Detroit area but a few are barely recognizable. Two off the top are Rackham in Huntington Woods and Warren Valley in Dearborn Heights. New Rogell is now closed.

[Carl Johnson]

Prompted by Chris Buie's suggestion on the http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,56249.75.html discussion of lesser known Ross gems, I'll start the bottom of Chris' six categories.  One course that surely should be on that list is:

Asheville (N.C.) Municipal Golf Course

With lots of work, which I don't see happening, it might move up a notch.

Carl, Michael J Fay calls it one of the least-changed Rosses. Only change has been relocation of one tee box. Yes, it's really run down and I'm sure today's version is an imitation of the original but that very neglect means it may very well be one of the truest Rosses on this or the other thread.

And considering the (negative) impact of money on course preservation, ironically more true Rosses might make this thread than the other thread.

With due respect to Mr. Fay, I would ask, "What is a least-changed Ross course"?  If you're talking about moving dirt, this may be true of Asheville.  I have only played the course once, about five years ago, and that - no dirt moved - may be a true assessment of least-changed, if that's how you want to define it.  What I perceive, based on my limited expericence, is a dramatic change in . . . TREES.  You can take a look on Google Maps.  The front nine is flat, in the Swannanoa River flood plain.  Soldier trees have been planted along the fairway margins.  To me, in person five years ago, it looked worse than what you see on the Google view today.  The back nine goes up and down a hill, in what's today a residential area, with trees crowding to the extreme most of the fairways.  So, I might reasonably (IMHO) argue that there have been substantial changes in the course - via planted, and overgrown trees.  If you can focus on the green complexes alone, I think you'd agree someone knew what he was doing here.  But I do not believe the average golfer is going to pick that up.

Money?  Yes.  From what I've read, Asheville does not have the money to renovate the course.  For a Ross "student" who is really interested in looking at what Ross did with the land he had, and what he could spend in 1927, then Asheville muni would be an interesting exploration.  But from the golfer's standpoint, ranking the interest of Ross courses today, I'd put it in the bottom category (not to denigrate Ross or the City of Asheville).  By the way, there are two execellent private Ross's and one Ross resort course in Asheville, but we're talking bottom category here, and those would be above that, I suspect.

Question.  What about Wilmington(N.C.) Municipal?  Small town North Carolina without a lot of public money to spend.  Ten years or so ago, give or take five, I "recall" that the Ross Society put some money into this course.  I've been curious about it, but have never traveled east to visit.

Any thoughts on the Wilmington muni today?  Bottom category, or higher?

[Ed Homsey]

I listed Bethlehem CC on the Buie thread.  Guess that amounted to a recommendation, but if you're in that part of the country and can play just one round, go to the Balsams.  Or, maybe, to Bretton Woods.

A course that has been mentioned as an "relatively unknown Ross Gem" is the Country Club of Rochester.  If you're in the Rochester area, go to Monroe Golf Club or Oak Hill West instead.  Though Gil Hanse did a fantastic job of awakening the hidden threats and charms of CCR, the rework by RTJ is still apparent in the disrupted natural flow of the course.  It has lost the kind of rhythm that you expect of a Ross course. 

[Mark Saltzman]

A course that has been mentioned as an "relatively unknown Ross Gem" is the Country Club of Rochester.  If you're in the Rochester area, go to Monroe Golf Club or Oak Hill West instead.  Though Gil Hanse did a fantastic job of awakening the hidden threats and charms of CCR, the rework by RTJ is still apparent in the disrupted natural flow of the course.  It has lost the kind of rhythm that you expect of a Ross course. 

Ed, I guess we disagree on this one.  I preferred CCR to any other course in Rochester and found the RTJ holes particularly well done. 

Photos of CCR for anyone interested... http://onegolferstravels.blogspot.ca/2012/08/country-club-of-rochester-golf-course.html

[Mark McKeever]

#Colbert is always ragging on Ravisloe...for what it's worth.

Mark

[Mark Pritchett]

I can not recommend a special trip for Asheville Municipal or the Wlimington City Course, but would recommend either as an "add on course" or if you are "in the area".

[Brad Tufts]

Tough one, because they all have some merit on some level.

Newton Comm is cramped and odd in places, but not horrific.  Just bring your helmet.

Bethlehem is nothing special (same for Maplewood Casino down the road) but there are a few good holes and it's in a beautiful location.

Sandy Burr is Mass. is pretty boring, but again, has maybe 6-8 pretty good holes.

There are a bunch with 9 Ross and 9 someone else that might fit this category.  Wentworth-by-the-Sea would be one, and Biddeford-Saco would be another.

Burlington CC in Vermont has been completely bastardized.  Might still have a Ross routing though.  Woodstock GC is the same...an old course that was changed by Ross, then completely redone by RTJ...not terrible, but over $100 for 6000y of VT public golf!?

I played Wilmington Muni right after the resto/renovation, and thought it was really neat...not sure how well it has been kept up since though.

[PCCraig]

Indian Hill outside Chicago

Indian Hill credits the design to Ross, Colt and Herbert Barker. 

Ok, Indian Hill is the answer to the following questions:

Ross courses you should not go out of your way to play
Colt courses you should not go out of your way to play
Barker courses you should not go out of your way to play

 

[PCCraig]

#Colbert is always ragging on Ravisloe...for what it's worth.

Mark

I don't mind Ravisloe...it's a nice, inexpensive, public "Ross" in a sea of pretty mediocre-to-bad public golf courses in Chicago. But I thought Ross only designed the one par-3 on the back on a day visit? 

Assuming it is a Ross, then yes, I would say it qualifies on this list. I certainly wouldn't travel from out of state to play it.

[Rick Shefchik]

Fort Myers Country Club. It's got a large older clubhouse with a great social atmosphere, and the course gets lots of play, but it might be on the flattest piece of earth Ross ever worked with, and somewhat crammed into its property with a lot of parallel holes. There are no knockout holes on the course, but even this relatively charmless layout does have some interesting greens and a subtle sense that somebody who knew what he was doing did the best he could with what he had to work with.

[Bill Gayne]

Sewell's Point in Norfolk VA that is located at the Naval Base probably fits this category, though I have played there multiple times.  Very good value.  Several holes on the back nine are squeezed.  If you are stuck in traffic for multiple hours going west on I-64 (this is not a far fetched possibility), it is worth a quick nine.

Wayne Morrison had clear documentation that the current Sewell's Point was a Flynn Course. He provided it to the course but they wanted to continue to maintain that they were a Ross course.

[Bill Gayne]

The Hamptons GC, Hampton, VA course was decimated by highway construction

Bethlehem CC, NH (I know it was recommended on the other thread, but it was just OK for me and if you are up that far north in NH you might as well go to the Balsams)

Chris

I think Tom Clark did a lot of work in Hampton when the interstate was cut through the course.

[Marc Huther]

Shelby golf course in Nashville, TN

[Andrew Buck]

#Colbert is always ragging on Ravisloe...for what it's worth.

Mark

I don't mind Ravisloe...it's a nice, inexpensive, public "Ross" in a sea of pretty mediocre-to-bad public golf courses in Chicago. But I thought Ross only designed the one par-3 on the back on a day visit?  

Assuming it is a Ross, then yes, I would say it qualifies on this list. I certainly wouldn't travel from out of state to play it.

Ravisloe was renovated by Ross, I believe.  The club went through a restoration process to restore it to the post-Ross restoration.  

I haven't played it since it went public, but I always thought it had good greens, was easily walkable and was a good test considering it's length.  I would agree that I wouldn't plan a trip around it, but if in the area, it's worth a play (and more enjoyable than many Chicago public courses like the Glen Club for half the cost, assuming condition is similar to it's private days).  

I do think they took some liberties with the "restoration" however.  For example, I believe he added bunker and pinched the fairway on 18 at about 235 off the tee to force an iron drive to leave the same length approach as in 1930.  In addition, they would have benefited from a little more tree removal, imo.

[michael j fay]

Asheville Municipal is really quite authentic. I played the course with the original plans in hand.

The nines have been reversed. The now tenth tee was moved to an ungainly angle making the hole unattractive and kind of silly.

All the other holes are as they appeared on the plans.

This is not to say that the Asheville Muni is a great golf course. There are some very good holes and some very average holes. Unfortunately because of the lack of funds and fundamental lack of understanding the Asheville Municipal has suffered over the years. The greens have shrunk by at least 50% in size leaving them round and without the character that could easily be found if they were expanded to the original sizes. The bunkering is where it was at the beginning, the bunkers have lost their integrity and spill out in various directions making them unsightly and strategically moot.

The main problem with the Asheville Muni is the continual planting of trees. There is a group of people down there that have an outing every years to raise money to plant more trees, I believe that this has gone on for better than 25 years. They once contacted me to see if I would donate, I offered a chainsaw.

It would take an enormous amount of money to fix Asheville, but it could be done and it could be as original as most Ross courses anywhere.

[Chris_Blakely]

I thought of another one: St Clair River CC, MI.  11 Ross holes and 7 Jerry Mathews holes.  The remaining Ross holes have been significantly altered. I left the course enjoying the Mathews holes much more then the Ross.

Chris