[David Stewart]

I lived in NC from 2010-2012 and played Dormie several times while there. I became a big fan of it the first time I saw it. My uncle (a frequent poster here) recently visited there and played it for the first time. While he still had good things to say, he was put off a bit by the routing through some of the "wetlands". There is the big one that runs between the two lakes (crosses tee shots on 15, 7, and 8 ) and then a few others in localized spots (2, 9, 10).  His point was that it is the sand hills of North Carolina and there shouldn't be wetlands in the course. He mentioned how they had 600 acres to use and could have found a different routing. I argued that they still made great golf holes, used the natural terrain, and some of the really good holes may have been left out in a different routing. For me, it didn't take anything away from the course. I'll save more comments for later.

For those who have played it, what do you think? For everyone, can you think of courses that have odd natural features for their geographical region that deter from the experience?

[Craig Disher]

David,
Has your uncle played many of the other sandhills courses? Wetlands are are not uncommon in the area. Pine Needles, Mid Pines, Southern Pines, the original Pinehurst #1, #2, #3, and #4, all had wetlands that were unavoidable in their routings. At Dormie, the Little River drainage that runs through the property would have been difficult, if not impossible, to avoid.

[David Stewart]

David,
Has your uncle played many of the other sandhills courses? Wetlands are are not uncommon in the area. Pine Needles, Mid Pines, Southern Pines, the original Pinehurst #1, #2, #3, and #4, all had wetlands that were unavoidable in their routings. At Dormie, the Little River drainage that runs through the property would have been difficult, if not impossible, to avoid.

Yes. He has played many of the ones you mentioned. I have also played Mid Pines, Southern Pines, and #2. I'm struggling to think of places where those have wetlands. I'm not talking about ponds. I'm talking about marshy type areas with tall weeds that would typically be wet. Which holes on those courses have wetlands?

[Craig Disher]

At Mid Pines, the 2nd, 3rd and 5th holes go over a wetland area that drained into a lake on the east side of the property. It's been partially dammed and is now a pond in front of the green in #5. Pine Needles #3, #4, and #10 all play over wetland areas that have been converted to ponds. At SPCC, there is a huge wetland area in the middle of the front nine that has been dammed. The tee shots at #6, #9, and #14 (I think those are right) go over it. On #2, the original course traversed a wetland that has become a large lake on the current #4. Several holes on Pinehurst #3 and #5 were routed over wetlands that were part of the original #3 course. Some are now ponds, some have been piped and filled in.

[David Stewart]

At Mid Pines, the 2nd, 3rd and 5th holes go over a wetland area that drained into a lake on the east side of the property. It's been partially dammed and is now a pond in front of the green in #5. Pine Needles #3, #4, and #10 all play over wetland areas that have been converted to ponds. At SPCC, there is a huge wetland area in the middle of the front nine that has been dammed. The tee shots at #6, #9, and #14 (I think those are right) go over it. On #2, the original course traversed a wetland that has become a large lake on the current #4. Several holes on Pinehurst #3 and #5 were routed over wetlands that were part of the original #3 course. Some are now ponds, some have been piped and filled in.

So HAD would be the key world here, as none of them currently have wetlands. But this bring up an interesting point. Are the old courses "un-sand-hills-like" because they filled in their wetlands? Or does Dormie need to dam theirs up to make it more like the older courses in their current state.

[Bill_McBride]

The wetlands are still there, just managed.  I'm sure between Craig and Chris Buie they could come up with a long list of wetland-influenced courses in the Sandhills.  Doesn't Tobacco Road have some?

[Ronald Montesano]

I don't think anyone can dam anything up, anymore. Too many restrictions.

[Craig Disher]

I don't think anyone can dam anything up, anymore. Too many restrictions.

Exactly so. Some of the wetlands at Dormie were dammed - the lake on 5 - many years ago. The ones that remain can't be touched.

[Chris Buie]

Many of the places where there are ponds in the Pinehurst area were originally wetlands or streams. Some of the wetlands were covered up with turf altogether. There are numerous examples of that.

[Mac Plumart]

I've heard other people voice similar complaints about the routing/walk...but I enjoyed the course and the walk very much.

[Chris DeNigris]

I'm not sure where all the "wetlands" are at Dormie??

Ok..maybe what you have to carry/walk around on 15...but really where else?

Picking at nits I think...

[Will Smith]

Bill Coore routed the course without a wetland map. He said if he had seen one he would have never set foot on the property. What your uncle sees as a weakness is actually a strength of the routing. Bill Coore was able to come up with a workable routing despite the property being riddled with wetlands. And he was doing it with just his eyes and his feet. Impressive.

[Jeff Dawson]

Actually Will is correct. If Coore knew then what he knows now he may not have done this project. It may or may not have to do with the wetlands  but that is for another discussion. During the routing, Coore came up with pieces of golf courses. He was having trouble finding connectivity. In fact it was Axland that came to the rescue, particularly with regards to crossing the stream right of ten and finding the 11th hole to get back towards the other side of the property. Wetlands made connectivity very difficult even when working with 1000 acres. In fact they had to do some mitigation on the first hole if I remember correctly. Walking thru the course wetlands come into play on 1,2,3,4,5,6,8,9,10,11,15 and 17. I remember a few of the holes being altered once Bill was made aware of certain wetlands areas being determined. When you realize the volume of restrictions on the property you can really appreciate what they were able to piece together.   Bill did not have a wetlands map. In fact he had a very basic map of the property and when he finished the routing and drew it on paper he came to my house and used my daughters animal color markers to color in the lines of the golf course. I still have that original routing. Coore may be the best modern day router of a golf course. Dormie may well be a good example of that.

[David Stewart]

I just got a chance to get back to this today. Thanks everyone for the very insightful comments. Again, I have never had a problem with the routing and think it is superb. Hearing the stories about Coore routing the course wows me even more.

A few questions that popped into my head due to this discussion:
1. Would you consider the courses in the Pinehurst area where the wetlands have been covered or dammed "unnatural"?
2. Someone mentioned Tobacco Road. I thought it was actually clay soil there, not sand. Can anyone give more insight?
3. What I am gathering from everyone is that even though most Sandhills courses do not CURRENTLY have visible wetlands, they are natural features of the area so my uncle should stop complaining about them. Is that correct?

Thanks

[Brent Hutto]

I think your takeaways from this thread are

a) It is a fallacy for your uncle to think the great Sandhills courses are built along the dry high ground and naturally occurring wetlands are avoided by the routings

b) The reason you uncle did not see "wetlands" being skirted on older courses is because the builders dealt with "wetlands" by filling them in, damming them up, piping them underground or otherwise destroying their original nature. Those options are no longer available, they must be either played over or walked around on any course built in this century.

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