What would be on a list of lesser known Ross gems?

[Adam Sherer]

Nice photo Adam. Care to tell us which course it is?

Sorry, was preoccupied with actually getting the photo posted (surprised that an easier way hasn't been addressed on here).  It's Sakonnet GC in RI.  Ross actually had a summer home about 2 miles from here.

[Brad Tufts]

I think Wannamoisett has to be among the best, if not completely out of a "lesser known" list.  It's been T100 for years.  Same with Salem CC.

[Mark McKeever]

I think Charles River is better than Salem....for what it's worth.

Mark

[Rick Shefchik]

I agree that this might be a bit of a threadjack, but I'd rather not start a new WBYC thread. I would like to contribute one more piece of information to consider.

In 1913, Minneapolis Tribune golf writer George Rhame wrote about the original 9 holes at WBYC: "It is affectionately known as a 'goat course.,' and it is deserving of the name. The only level spots upon it, worth while, are the putting greens, and some of them are not on the level." Later that year, Rhame wrote, "The White Bear course, a nine-hole invention, has no bunkers, nor does it need any. Lucky is the man who playing it for the first time, can equal bogey 40 for the nine holes. From start to finish it is a chase after the pill, which if care is not taken, will often lead to rough grass in unexpected valleys. Anyone looking for sporty golf can find it on the links of the White Bear course. Eventually it is intended to cut down some of the 'mountains' and fill in the 'fathomless' pits. It will also within the next two or three years, be enlarged to an 18-hole course. The club is the owner of the necessary amount of long."

A year later, in 1914, Rhame's opinion of the course seemed to have declined, calling it "a mixture of golf holes that will keep the best of the golfers guessing a good part of the time. It is a sporty course, and dubbed by many, badly defeated by Colonel Bogey, as a goat pasture."

These descriptions do not match up with what was being written about the course by 1920, nor do they sound like a recently opened Donald Ross course. Perhaps some of his work from that era was a bit crude in the beginning, but if Ross's hand was on WBYC, it seems more likely to have come later in an upgrade of the course's quality. The 1915 surveyor's map would fit that timeline -- a Ross expansion to 18 holes, with the course assuming its current routing and polish.

But the truth is, we don't know exactly who did what, and when. I've go no investment in this other than an attempt to learn more about the origins of WBYC. I'd be happy to report back here at some point that I found documentation that Watson was the sole architect and Ross merely an interested adviser.   

[Dan Kelly]

Dan would you say that the original design of Minneapolis was a gem? And if it was properly presented today it would would deserve gem designation?

I never played the original design.

I've played the current design one (1) time.

I wouldn't say it was or wasn't a gem, on the basis of one (1) playing.

But if I get a chance to return to Minneapolis Golf Club, I will very happily accept the opportunity.

The same goes for Woodhill, by the way -- which I loved 40 years ago, when I played it pretty regularly. (I have not played it since.)

[Chris Buie]

Rich, how highly would you rate Winchester?

Thanks Adam. Where do you think Sakonnet should be ranked. If he lived that close to it that means he was most likely playing it a pretty good amount and he would inevitably be thinking about how to improve it. I should imagine it is a very good course.

Thanks Dan and Brad.

David and Rick, it sounds pretty much like Watson and Ross could be credited as co-designers. Maybe that giving Ross a bit more credit than warranted but he did have some input there.
You've kept the discussion convivial and it is an interesting topic so your debate on here is fine with me.

A Rough and Evolving List of Lesser Known Ross Courses


-Best (incomplete and in no particular order)
Essex
Idle Hour
Plainfield
Overhills
Mountain Ridge
Glens Falls
Brookside
Northland
Charles River
Wannamoisett

-Excellent (these and others possibly to be included above)
Timaquana CC
French Lick
Misquamicut
Augusta CC
Springfield Country Club
Plymouth CC
Siwanoy CC
Holston Hills
Franklin Hills
Salem
Gulph Mills

Hmm, maybe it would be better just to list these courses altogether than two separate categories...

[DMoriarty]

Rick,

I don't see how the March 1915 plan fits with your timeline at all. In fact, the existence of the detailed plan seems to directly undermine your timeline.  Your newspaper quote suggests that as of September 1916, Ross had not yet gone to WBYC "with a view of rearranging it." Yet you think that a blueprint plan done a year and a half earlier - March 1915 - reflects the changes Ross hadn't yet made in September 1916?  That doesn't make any sense at all, does it?  Also, Ross and/or his people generally drew up Ross's plans, did they not?   So why would a Ross plan be drawn up by a local surveyor?  That makes little sense to me.  

I think sometimes it is tempting to assume that if a course is good then it must be by one of the more famous designers, and along those lines you seem to think that if WBYC got better in its first 10 years of existence, then that must have been because of Ross.  This doesn't follow at all to me. William Watson was no slouch, and it seems a bit much to assume that the good must have come from Ross but the bad from Watson.   Perhaps a more reasonable conclusion from the same information would be that the early course was a work in progress, and while the plans for the eighteen were already in place, they were carried out over time, which was very common during this early period.

Here is something Tom Doak said in an earlier thread that I think bears repeating . . .

The problem with this whole topic is that most people have a very narrow list of the "Golden Age architects," so there is a tendency to want to ascribe every old course to Ross instead of Watson, Mackenzie instead of Alex Russell, etc., so the course will be more easily accepted in the pantheon of great Golden Age courses.   If WBYC really IS a Watson course instead of Ross, it would probably get less attention and have less chance of making the top 100 lists, even though it is the exact same course.  And so it becomes a self-perpetuating thing, and the next club researching its history is that much more likely to dismiss the lesser-known guy and ascribe all the genius to the Big Name.  History is written by the victors, or those who wish to claim victory, anyway.

For that reason, I applaud Tom MacWood's efforts to find out more about what Willie Watson and Herbert Strong and H.H. Barker and even Tom Bendelow really DID build.  There may not be room for them on Mt. Rushmore but it does not disqualify them from having done some great work.

Lastly, you wrote: "I'd be happy to report back here at some point that I found documentation that Watson was the sole architect and Ross merely an interested adviser."  Why wait?  Isn't this almost exactly what the club said in 1925?  That Watson designed the course, and Ross offered his advice (or helped "develop" the course) at some undetermined point in time?  And the pamphlet from 1917/1918 doesn't mention Ross at all does it?  How does that fit into your timeline?

__________________________________

Added:  Also Rick, I am not sure that the 9 referred to in those articles was even part of the 18 hole course done around 1915, was it?  I have a vague recollection of a pre-existing, club created 9 before Watson's involvement.

Also I think I had Watson's involvement a few years early.

[DMoriarty]

Rick,

For what it is worth, in order to try and better understand your perspective I just read your excellent coverage of White Bear in your book. I agree with much of it.  

In particular, I agree with your treatment of the 1916 newspaper clip, and your reasoning and conclusion that,"The 1915 surveyors map still exists, and the holes were in the same locations as they are now, so Ross could not have done a rerouting of the original layout --as he would soon do with Watson's designs at Minikahda and Interlachen."   Not sure why you seem to be moving away from that here.

I am also glad to see that you quoted the undated club pamphlet:  "'The original plan of the course was prepared by Wm. Watson, and it has been developed under the advice of Donald Ross and Tom Vardon . . ..'"  (By the way, at some point I cross-referenced the rounds mentioned in the pamphlet with newspaper accounts mentioning those same rounds, and determined that the pamphlet was likely produced in the second half of 1917 or the first half of 1918.)

But where I disagree is with your assumption that Ross must have somehow been responsible for the improvements after those 1912-1914 articles, Watson's 18 hole course wasn't open until August of 1915, so I have a hard time condemning Watson for comments made about the course before then.  Your position seems to be unnecessarily dismissive of Watson's skill. Plus, I think the club "Commodore" offered a more reasonable explanation in his 1925 article.  The original Watson plan was very good and the club has stuck to it, but implemented it over time.  From your quotation of the 1925 Article, with my bolds:

"'On the golf course not all was done at once and not all will be done for some time yet,' Graves wrote in 1925.  'No better test of the merits and faults of a course exists than play on it day and month and year in and out.  The original plan tested by play has required very little change or modification.  Such changes and improvements as have been made as opportunity afforded have been strictly in line with the plan after experience showed that nothing more was needed.  There has been no vacillation and there is no regret for money ill spent and for unnecessary disconnect and interruption to play.  In this respect the club may consider itself among the fortunate and the elect.  The holes which have been completed may never be changed.  A few holes remain to be fully developed.'"

Surely the advice of Ross and Vardon was very helpful. But those two men got involved after the course was already on the ground. According to the club, the course was created along the lines of "the original plan."  And according to the club, that plan was Watson's.

[Rick Shefchik]

David, my curiosity in this case stems from the club's long-held belief that it has a Donald Ross course. I don't know specifically where that belief comes from, but I'm not ready to dismiss it based on Watson's obvious involvement. I will continue to search for information that specifies what Watson did, when he did it, and what Ross did and when he did it. None of this is intended to denigrate Watson's skills, nor am I trying to prove he did not design the golf course. But contemporary accounts are not complimentary of the first nine holes, and I've never heard of a club-created 9-holes the predated Watson's work. If there's evidence of such a course, I'd like to see it.

The way I wrote the White Bear chapter in my book seemed to be the safest way to handle what little hard information we have. But I keep coming back to the fact that the club has long had an institutional belief that Donald Ross is the main force behind their 100-year-old golf course, and I'd sure like to know why. We know Ross was there; we know he did something; and we know the course improved dramatically over its original iteration. Watson received the credit he was due from the club in the early '20s; did he simply fall out of fashion, or did the club come to decide that Ross's influence on the course was ultimately more important? Hopefully some day we'll know.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Chris,

Timaquana is a very nice golf course, but, it's not in Plainfield's, Mountain Ridge's or Charles River's class.

You've got it properly tiered.

[David Harshbarger]

Here's a gem from 10 am this morning.

[Patrick_Mucci]

David,

I could make that an even better course, given a chain saw and a few days.

[DMoriarty]

Rick,  Seriously, is it really a mystery why White Bear Yacht Club would rather call themselves a Ross course, despite the evidence to the contrary?   Reverse the names and the order of involvement, and you can be sure that Ross supporters would be claiming that whatever Watson might have done, the record is clear that it was a Ross course because Ross did the original plan and the course was built according to that plan.  Either way their conclusion would point to Ross.

The only reason this is an issue at all is because it is an opportunity for the club to claim have a Ross course, and for the Ross people to give Ross credit for what seems to be an excellent course.

[Chris Buie]

Patrick, that's good to know about Timaquana. If you care to give us your impressions what changes would you make to the lists? Brookside, Northland, Charles River and Wannamoisett belong in the first tier?

David, nice photo. I could make a guess but probably best if you tell us the name of that hilly course. I like the center bunker - makes for a more interesting tee shot. I don't think I'd have rough around it though. I'd just let it slowly and painfully trickle in there without rough to stop it. Maybe bevel the edges a bit so it may or may not go in - suspense and intrigue rather than complete predictability. Thanks.

[David Harshbarger]

Chris, wish I had been there....I had to work :-(.

A hilly Ross course, It's on your list.

[Ed Oden]

Chris, how do you define "lesser known"?  About half the courses on your list are in various top 100 rankings, so I'm not sure they are generally very well known and highly regarded.  It looks like the only courses excluded are #2, Seminole and Oakland Hills. 

[Dan_Callahan]

A few random Longmeadow pics from the Mass Am:

[Malcolm Mckinnon]

Chris,

You are missing a very significant Donald Ross course on Cape Cod. Oyster Harbors in Osterville, MA is one of his best. You can see my photo tour of the course here on the DG. Mr. Doak recently renovated the course, (not all by himself).

Also, Mountain Ridge and Plainfield merit top honors in NJ, but what happened to the West course at Oak Hill? Should be in the top group for the quality of the greens hands down. Those are some of the most imaginative Ross greens I have ever seen. Such a pity when you see what little magic still exists on their "Championship" East course. Blah!

Also another vote to elevate Siwanoy in Bronxville, NY. Definitely gem worthy.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick, that's good to know about Timaquana. If you care to give us your impressions what changes would you make to the lists? Brookside, Northland, Charles River and Wannamoisett belong in the first tier?


Chris,

I can only comment on the courses I've played.

I think Wannamoisett belongs in the first tier.

Timaquana doesn't have the luxury of rolling topography like the other courses.

One of the things that always fascinated me about Timaquana was the siting of the clubhouse/course

[Chris Buie]

Ed, good question. It's not the most clearly defined thing.
My personal definition is mainly would the average player at the average club in the average town know the course? Basically I'm trying to point out courses that are great that the majority have not heard of. We can debate the particulars of "lesser known" for days and not come up with an exact definition. I don't really want to get caught up in that even though there is a measure of value in that debate.
Hopefully, it might be a list that could be of some value. I personally am delighted to hear about these courses of superior quality. In the case of Brookside and Northland I don't even recall hearing those names. I've heard of the rest I think and in some cases had heard nice things said about them but didn't realize the quality was fantastic. For instance, I had no idea Idle Hour is considered great by some.
So again if you're trying to determine if the course could be largely considered "lesser known" just walk into the pro shop of your more average club and ask some guy with a belly having a look at the latest hi-tech driver and ask him if he's heard of say, Franklin Hills.
As you can see I can't lay out the definition perfectly but never the less think pointing out the fact that these courses are superior and not just another name on that very long list of Ross courses is worthwhile.


Thanks for the pics Dan. Should Longmeadow be on the first tier or the second - or somewhere else?

Malcolm, hearing about courses that should be on this list is exactly the info I'm looking for. Should Oyster Harbors be first tier or second?

Thanks Patrick. I'm glad to hear Wannamoisett belongs on the first tier.


A Rough and Evolving List of Lesser Known Ross Courses

-Best (incomplete and in no particular order)
Essex
Idle Hour
Plainfield
Overhills
Mountain Ridge
Glens Falls
Brookside
Northland
Charles River
Wannamoisett

-Excellent (these and others possibly to be included above)
Timaquana CC
French Lick
Misquamicut
Augusta CC
Springfield Country Club
Plymouth CC
Siwanoy CC
Holston Hills
Franklin Hills
Salem
Gulph Mills
Longmeadow
Oyster Harbors
Oak Hill (West)

[Malcolm Mckinnon]

Chris,

In my humble opinion, Oyster Harbors, Siwanoy and Oak Hill West all deserve first tier status.

That is as "second tier" gems that the great unwashed masses (GUMS) would not know about as they are out of the USGA/PGA universe.

Malcolm

[Dan_Callahan]

Of the courses in your first tier, I've only played Essex, Charles River, and Wannamoisett. I would put Longmeadow a notch below those three, but not too far back. If the course was in the Boston area and not in Western Mass, I think it would be much better known. In my opinion, it is better than The Orchards, Concord CC and Belmont CC (and I love those three Ross courses).

[Chris Buie]

Thanks Malcolm.
Anybody care to comment on where Oyster Harbors, Siwanoy and Oak Hill West belong on the lists?

Thanks again Dan!