What would be on a list of lesser known Ross gems?

[Mark McKeever]

 I would move Charles River up personally.

Mark

[J_ Crisham]

I would move Charles River up personally.

Mark

Mark,  I agree completely- Charles River is top 4 or 5 in Boston for me. I fail to see a significant difference between it and Brookline in terms of quality of holes. The property at The River is very well utilized. Myopia may be a hair better but its pretty much a wash with the remainder of Boston area clubs. CR should be on everyone's short list when in Boston- its that good!

[David Amarnek]

Philip,
As Pat Mucci suggested, Tom Paul's excellent architectural evolution book on GMGC would be a fine start to understand the work done by the various architects at the club.  Additionally, please see Joe Bausch's wonderful photo tour and hole-by-hole references to that work which was posted on GCA just a few months ago. 
Should GMGC be considered a Ross gem?  Yes.
Was he solely responsible for today's course?  Obviously not.

[Chris Buie]

A Rough List of Lesser Known Ross Courses


-Best (incomplete and in no particular order)
Essex
Idle Hour
Plainfield
Overhills (trust me on that lads)
Mountain Ridge (based on Mucci's take)
Glens Falls (Ian Andrew rates it - that's all I need to know)
Brookside
Northland
Charles River

-Excellent (these and others possibly to be included above)
Timaquana CC
French Lick
Misquamicut
Augusta CC
Springfield Country Club
Plymouth CC
Siwanoy CC
Holston Hills
Franklin Hills
Wannamoisett
Gulph Mills

Morrissett on French Lick:
"Having concluded the round, one is likely to be smitten by the course and left wanting more. As with Ross’s best work, the golfer isn’t beaten up or exhausted but rather invigorated and thoughts for another nine or eighteen holes enter his mind. Also, there is a singularly playful exuberance found in this design."

I suppose this list is to bring some focus to a matter that has (apparently) not been fully addressed before. I would never presume to be offering something definitive. The benefit (for me at least) is that I've learned quite a bit about many courses I may have heard of but didn't realize were so good. Glen Falls, Idle Hour, Brookside, Northland and Charles River...I certainly didn't realize they were as good as credible people say they are.

You are encouraged to make your own lists. What I've presented is all just my take on what I'm hearing. It's titled A List not The List. It's just one point of view.

[PCCraig]

What about White Bear Yacht Club?

[Mark McKeever]

I would move Charles River up personally.

Mark

Mark,  I agree completely- Charles River is top 4 or 5 in Boston for me. I fail to see a significant difference between it and Brookline in terms of quality of holes. The property at The River is very well utilized. Myopia may be a hair better but its pretty much a wash with the remainder of Boston area clubs. CR should be on everyone's short list when in Boston- its that good!

Agreed.  Everyone tries to get on TCC when they are in Boston, but Charles River is an absolute must see as well.

Mark

[Dan_Callahan]

For those who are unfamiliar with the excellence of Longmeadow, there are some nice pics of the course online from the Mass Am that's underway:

http://davidcoltphotography.smugmug.com/NewEnglandGolfImages/Mass-Golf-Association-2013/2013-Mass-Amateur/30420442_GkXRQh#!i=2621679249&k=k8fh4Jk

[Chris Buie]

Well, it sounds likely that both Longmeadow and WBYC belong somewhere on those two lists.
Which list do you think they belong on?

F. Scott wrote a short story that was the prototype for Gatsby at WBYC. That was before he was invited to leave for excessive revelry if I remember correctly. Were all the guys who wrote the Great American Novel raving alcoholics? A pity.

There should probably be another section just below those two categories that include courses which are very, very good but perhaps not quite so stellar.

[Mark Steffey]

I would move Charles River up personally.

Mark

Mark,  I agree completely- Charles River is top 4 or 5 in Boston for me. I fail to see a significant difference between it and Brookline in terms of quality of holes. The property at The River is very well utilized. Myopia may be a hair better but its pretty much a wash with the remainder of Boston area clubs. CR should be on everyone's short list when in Boston- its that good!

yup.

i don't consider that 'lesser known'. 

same with brookside canton.  i always consider that one of ross' finest collection of greens, period.  kinda thought all of us here knew that.

[Adam Sherer]

[DMoriarty]

Well, it sounds likely that both Longmeadow and WBYC belong somewhere on those two lists.
Which list do you think they belong on?

I'd hold off on adding White Bear Yacht club to any Ross list.  If I recall Tom MacWood's excellent research correctly, William Watson laid out the course circa 1910-1911.  This according to a pamphlet put out by the club in 1917-18, and according to an article by the "Commodore" of the club in the mid-1920's.   Ross advised sometime around 1921 but the changes made pursuant to his advice were apparently fairy minor. (This based on comparing the description in the pamphlet to the course after Ross advised.)

[Dan Kelly]

Well, it sounds likely that both Longmeadow and WBYC belong somewhere on those two lists.
Which list do you think they belong on?

I'd hold off on adding White Bear Yacht club to any Ross list.  If I recall Tom MacWood's excellent research correctly, William Watson laid out the course circa 1910-1911.  This according to a pamphlet put out by the club in 1917-18, and according to an article by the "Commodore" of the club in the mid-1920's.   Ross advised sometime around 1921 but the changes made pursuant to his advice were apparently fairy minor. (This based on comparing the description in the pamphlet to the course after Ross advised.)

Paging Rick Shefchik...

[Dan Kelly]

Minneapolis does not qualify as a "gem" to me, at least based on the last few times I have played it with rolled greens and collars of rough surrounding them.

Jason --

Played it today for the first time. I liked it a lot -- though, even after losing many trees in the storm two weeks ago, MGC could stand to lose numerous trees that make some of the holes (e.g., 17) unreasonably tight for recreational play.

The greens were slower than normal today, the other players reported. They certainly weren't rolled today.

I think if they were as fast as they apparently normally are, it would be too much golf course for me -- and for most golfers. You'd spend your whole day quivering that you might get above the hole and then putt right off the green. And it wouldn't be much fun, with hole after hole offering that possibility.

The speed today was manageable. And the course was quite a lot of fun.

Dan

[Chris Buie]

Mark, I don't recall hearing about Brookside before this thread. I guess some course are well known regionally and not so much nationally. I kind of doubt the majority of golfers have heard of Mid Pines even though most on here have. Most American golfers aren't that interested in courses on a different side of the country that aren't famous. The average American golfer is a far different breed than the chaps on GCA.

Nice photo Adam. Care to tell us which course it is?

David, that was in the back of my mind. I somewhat recall a discussion on here a while back regarding who the designer was. As long as the course is so appealing to many I suppose that doesn't matter. It's fine with me if it shouldn't be listed as a Ross.

Dan would you say that the original design of Minneapolis was a gem? And if it was properly presented today it would would deserve gem designation?

The lists are probably selling some courses short - like maybe Roaring Gap - and some others. That's not a good thing. Not quite sure what is the best way to deal with that. Add a third tier with all of them under a heading of different grades of superior design? I'm very glad I got the discussion started but there are no doubt people on here who could do a better job at this sort of thing than myself. Again, feel free to have a go at it if you feel inclined. I'd enjoy seeing it.

[Mac Plumart]

Although I have not played it, I've been told that Essex is one of his, if not his, best.

One that I have played, that is very good is Augusta CC and Inverness is over-looked (it is borderline great, if you can over-look a few renovated holes).

In total, I've played 11 Ross courses (Pinehurst #2, Inverness, Seminole, Pine Needles, Holston Hills, Augusta CC, Mid-Pines, Gulph Mills, Columbus CC, Southern Pines, not sure if Old Elm counts)...and each one has been, at a minimum, very good.

I believe he is an excellent router of a golf course and his greens are outstanding.

Mac, you haven't been over to Athens CC yet?  I haven't played a ton of Ross, having grown up west, but Athens is one of my favorites.   Don't spend any time on the third, non-Ross nine.   You might see Mike Young in his office.

Not yet, Bill.  But I'm hoping to get up there before months end.

[Mac Plumart]

I think it's time to recognize that Donald Ross has the deepest bench of lesser known gems.  Absolutely mind boggling.

Yes!

[Philip Caccamise]

Philip,
As Pat Mucci suggested, Tom Paul's excellent architectural evolution book on GMGC would be a fine start to understand the work done by the various architects at the club.  Additionally, please see Joe Bausch's wonderful photo tour and hole-by-hole references to that work which was posted on GCA just a few months ago. 
Should GMGC be considered a Ross gem?  Yes.
Was he solely responsible for today's course?  Obviously not.

Revision to previous statement. GAPGolf website sucks!
OK just kidding. I love the course, regardless of whether it's not an untouched Ross. There isn't many I'd rather be a member at than GMGC. A great balance of fun and very difficult holes.

And a fantastic photo tour by Joe Bausch. Thanks for the memories!

[Rick Shefchik]

Well, it sounds likely that both Longmeadow and WBYC belong somewhere on those two lists.
Which list do you think they belong on?

I'd hold off on adding White Bear Yacht club to any Ross list.  If I recall Tom MacWood's excellent research correctly, William Watson laid out the course circa 1910-1911.  This according to a pamphlet put out by the club in 1917-18, and according to an article by the "Commodore" of the club in the mid-1920's.   Ross advised sometime around 1921 but the changes made pursuant to his advice were apparently fairy minor. (This based on comparing the description in the pamphlet to the course after Ross advised.)

David,

William Watson's early involvement of the design of White Bear Yacht Club has been acknowledged by the club, but Ross was involved much earlier than 1921. I found a story in the Sept. 1, 1916 Minneapolis Morning Tribune that said Ross was in town to supervise the plans for Woodhill Country Club in Orono (a western Minneapolis suburb), and while in town, he was going to "go over the White Bear course with a view of rearranging it."

It's a tantalizing issue. The club has long put Donald Ross ahead of Watson as its principal designer, citing a 1910 meeting with club founder Louis Ordway as a seminal moment in the origin of the golf course. But Ross was known to recommend Watson as an architect when he was too busy to design a course himself; Northland Country Club in Duluth sought Ross's services in 1921, and though Ross tried to divert the job to Watson, Northland persisted and ultimately hired Ross. It is also interesting that Ross redesigned Watson's work at Minikahda and Interlachen. No one has found definitive evidence of what happened at WBYC, but the club's Commodore wrote in 1925 that Ross "gave freely of his advice"; perhaps that means that he suggested an initial routing or plan, Watson laid it out, and Ross returned to tweak it. Is WBYC a Ross? At least in part, yes.

[DMoriarty]

Doesn't that same 1925 article say that Watson designed the course?  And wasn't there a pamphlet put out from the club in 1917 or 1918 also indicating that Watson designed the course?  If so, that would seem to be pretty direct evidence to me.

According to Tom MacWood, Ross never claimed to have designed the course and he didn't include in his listing of courses he designed.  In contrast, William Watson was listing the course as his design into the 1920's at least. So far as I know, both were honest men.  

[Rick Shefchik]

Yes, I think it's pretty clear that Watson designed the original White Bear Yacht Club course. I think it is also true that Ross redesigned it -- or "rearranged" it, if you will. The Tufts Archives list WBYC as a Ross course, just as they list Minikahda and Interlachen as Ross courses, though William Watson designed the first versions of both courses.

[DMoriarty]

Yes, I think it's pretty clear that Watson designed the original White Bear Yacht Club course. I think it is also true that Ross redesigned it -- or "rearranged" it, if you will. The Tufts Archives list WBYC as a Ross course, just as they list Minikahda and Interlachen as Ross courses, though William Watson designed the first versions of both courses.

You think it "clear" that Barker did the initial design, but "true" that Ross redesigned it.  I take it you agree that it is not "clear" that Ross significantly redesigned it or what that redesign entailed?

I'd think Ross himself may be the best source.  Didn't Ross list both Interlachen as Minikahda as redesigns in his pamphlet?  Yet he did not mention WBYC at all, did he?

And isn't there a plan from 1915 - before Ross's supposed redesign - that doesn't differ too significantly from the plan after Ross's supposed redesign?
====================================================


I don't want to clog the otherwise interesting thread, so I will bow out, but I think it far from "clear" that White Bear is a Ross course, although it seems like he did something there at some point.  

[Rick Shefchik]

David, let me ask you what you think Ross's involvement was at WBYC, given the 1916 newspaper story that he was going there to "rearrange" the course.

[John Percival]

Franklin Hills!!!

Beverly CC
Ravisloe GC
Barton Hills CC
Essex CC (Canada)
French Lick
Oakland Hills North

George,
Oakland Hills North was renovated in the early 60's by RTJ. While some of the original routing remains, 9 holes were moved or are original. Additionally, many of the greens and bunkers seem to have been 'RTJed'. So, while the original was a Ross, it became more RTJ. HOWEVER, that is being changed, as the course just shut down for a reno that will not touch greens, but address tees, some bunkers and, most importantly, drainage issues on three holes. When completed, the North will become one of Michigan's outstanding courses along side the South.
Another under-rated Ross course is the North cse at Detroit Golf Club. Some terrific greens and a great reno about 7-8(?) years ago.

[DMoriarty]

David, let me ask you what you think Ross's involvement was at WBYC, given the 1916 newspaper story that he was going there to "rearrange" the course.

I have no idea, but with all respect, I don't think you do either. Your September 1916 newspaper blip sounds like a good starting point, but not anything on which to draw any solid conclusions.  

Perhaps Ross got there and liked what he saw, or perhaps he made a few changes here and there, or perhaps he had the whole thing bulldozed and started from scratch. I don't know, but given that the next year the club was calling Watson the designer, I would be surprised if it was the last option.  

Looking back at the old threads, I see that Tom MacWood cited the club historian, and according the club historian, the club has a large topographical blueprint map dated March 1915, which was about a year and a half before your newspaper blip.  If you compare that map to the course after Ross's supposed "redesign" that would give you a starting point at understanding what Ross might have done.   According to the club historian, very little has changed.

But perhaps this isn't the best thread to go through this.

[Rich Goodale]

I'm surprised that Winchester hasn't been mentioned yet.