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Ronald Montesano

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Trading an RTJ ReTool for a Ross: LPGA Championship 2014
« on: June 28, 2013, 06:55:36 AM »
http://golfweek.com/news/2013/jun/27/lpga-championship-move-2014-monroe/

Folks round Rochester parts have whispered that the Locust Hill course wasn't the stuff of major championship golf. The LPGA is ready to test those waters, heading across town (Pittsford, NY) to Monroe Golf Club.

Architecturally speaking, why wasn't Locust Hill (what an inspiring name) up to the task and why is Monroe a sound replacement? Having set foot on neither, I appeal to those in the know. According to the wiki, the original course was Seymour Dunn's, then reworked a scant 6 years later by RTJ.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2013, 08:34:27 AM by Ronald Montesano »
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Kevin Lynch

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Re: Trading an RTJ ReTool for a Ross: LPGA Championship 2014
« Reply #1 on: June 28, 2013, 08:15:37 AM »
Are you teeing up JNC for his harsh critique of Locust Hill? 

From my perspective, the course really doesn't provide much interest off the tee, as the only goal is keeping it out of the rough, with no real need to shape shots or play for preferred angles.  The one-dimensional character was only worsened by the excessive rough and tight fairways.  The 4th is probably one of the most boring par 5s in a "major" - 500 yards straight away with no elevation change except for a slight rise in the last 40 yards.

Haven't been to Monroe, so I'll leave that to others.

Either way, I hope that Wegman's is able to keep the LPGA Championship in Rochester, whether at one course or a rotation among Rochester tracks.

Matt Albanese

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Re: Trading an RTJ ReTool for a Ross: LPGA Championship 2014
« Reply #2 on: June 28, 2013, 12:33:13 PM »
I was very excited to see this news. Monroe is an interesting golf course. Particularly striking to me were the deep fairway bunkers sometimes hidden by knolls and hills. The Gil Hanse 2007 restoration came out fantastically. More information here: http://www.monroegolfclub.com/Default.aspx?p=DynamicModule&pageid=297876&ssid=180766&vnf=1
« Last Edit: June 28, 2013, 12:36:28 PM by Matt Albanese »

mark chalfant

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Re: Trading an RTJ ReTool for a Ross: LPGA Championship 2014
« Reply #3 on: June 28, 2013, 05:26:27 PM »
Monroe is a great Ross routing with splendid rolling terrain.  Also clever /assertive bunkering, great variety of holes, some great par threes. The restored green complexes are very fun to play ,due to lively interior contours. For me, the most architecturally significant Ross course in New York State

Ed Homsey

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Re: Trading an RTJ ReTool for a Ross: LPGA Championship 2014
« Reply #4 on: June 28, 2013, 05:51:21 PM »
I have attended the LPGA event at Locust Hill each year it was held there, and have played the course on a few occasions.  It's a nice course, but does not stand out in comparison to several nearby courses.  I've always considered it as a fairly typical Seymour Dunn course.  Whether Monroe Golf Club's course is the best Ross course in Rochester is certainly debatable, but it's terrain, routing, Hanse-renovated bunkering, and wonderful green sites combine for a very interesting and challenging site for the LPGA Championship.   

Philip Caccamise

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Re: Trading an RTJ ReTool for a Ross: LPGA Championship 2014
« Reply #5 on: June 29, 2013, 12:21:43 AM »
Monroe is where this thing should have been all along. It's 10X the golf course that Locust Hill is. It's probably the most "Donald Ross" Ross course I've ever played. While I think the membership may have a higher opinion of themselves than deserved, it's really an excellent golf course- probably a Doak 7.

Ron, how have you not played Monroe yet! That needs to be rectified ASAP. To put Locust Hill to Monroe in perspective, it would be like replacing Westwood with CCB.

Ronald Montesano

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Re: Trading an RTJ ReTool for a Ross: LPGA Championship 2014
« Reply #6 on: June 29, 2013, 08:37:41 AM »
Philip, you'll get a chuckle out of this: I have not played CCR, either Oak Hill layout, Irondequoit, Monroe or any of the other Rochester privates. I've walked some in tournaments, but that's it.

I've always heard positive things about Oak Hill and (unfortunately) banal things about Locust Hill. I suspect that the LH membership will be either heavily involved or not at all.

I wonder about the one-year deal...I wonder if Wegman's has considered rotating it among the area's top courses? It would be a hybrid in that the championship would be associated with a region, yet would dance between venues.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Ed Homsey

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Re: Trading an RTJ ReTool for a Ross: LPGA Championship 2014
« Reply #7 on: June 29, 2013, 11:33:46 AM »
At the present time, the LPGA Championship is scheduled for Monroe Golf Club for just 1914.  However, there has been considerable speculation in the  Rochester papers about a rotation of courses in Rochester.  The President of Locust Hill has been quoted as saying that Locust Hill might be interested, though he was also quoted as saying that probably half of their membership is relieved that the tournament will not be held at LH next year.  The other course that has been mentioned as a part of the rota is Oak Hill West--in my humble and, in this setting, uninformed opinion, the best Ross course in Rochester.

Chris Cupit

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Re: Trading an RTJ ReTool for a Ross: LPGA Championship 2014
« Reply #8 on: June 29, 2013, 12:01:25 PM »
I was fortunate enough to play Monroe numerous times in their Amateur tournament from about 1988-1993 and played Oak Hill in the Amateur back in the late eighties.

Obviously Oak Hill was a treat and we played all 36 though I must say that I remember every hole at Monroe and can only recall a few from Oak Hill.  I also remmember liking Oak Hill (the other course--West?) quite a bit.  The East at Oak Hill was long and hard but I don't remember much else :(

Anyway, Monroe is a terrific golf course--great bunkering, terrific par fours and threes.  The par fives were a bit short even back then though I am guessing one or two could be converted to par fours and/or lengthened if that's desired.


Philip Caccamise

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Re: Trading an RTJ ReTool for a Ross: LPGA Championship 2014
« Reply #9 on: June 30, 2013, 06:16:11 PM »
Philip, you'll get a chuckle out of this: I have not played CCR, either Oak Hill layout, Irondequoit, Monroe or any of the other Rochester privates. I've walked some in tournaments, but that's it.

I've always heard positive things about Oak Hill and (unfortunately) banal things about Locust Hill. I suspect that the LH membership will be either heavily involved or not at all.

I wonder about the one-year deal...I wonder if Wegman's has considered rotating it among the area's top courses? It would be a hybrid in that the championship would be associated with a region, yet would dance between venues.

That seems to be an option on the table according to the quotes from the Wegmans tournament coordinators. Not sure OHCC would be interested in hosting the women so the rotation could possibly be Monroe, CCR, Irondequoit, Brook Lea (possibly), Cobblestone Creek (possibly), Locust Hill.

JNC Lyon

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Re: Trading an RTJ ReTool for a Ross: LPGA Championship 2014
« Reply #10 on: July 05, 2013, 07:42:32 PM »
I was very excited to hear that the LPGA Championship is moving from Locust to Monroe.  I've always thought that Locust provided a pretty poor representation of Rochester golf on the national stage.  Personally, there are two dozen or so golf courses in the Rochester area that I would rather play than Locust.  Several of them cost less than $20 to play, but people still line up to join Locust Hill, only to line up again to get a tee time on a Saturday morning.  It's tough to understand.

I'll bring back my Buffalo Golfer piece on Locust.  It's pretty brash stuff in hindsight, but I stand by it. http://buffalogolfer.com/wordpress/locust-hill-not-a-worthy-major-championship-venue/

Phil,

I like your idea of hosting the LPGA at a rotation of courses.  I won't speak to any rumors about Oak Hill playing host, but I always thought the West Course would be great for an LPGA event (and I mean that in the best possible way).  I think Ravenwood would also be a great host.  It's a very solid golf course (definitely inside my top 10 for the area), it has an excellent practice facility, and it would handle the crowds fairly easily.  I would also get a big kick out of seeing the tournament at Cobblestone Creek.  Cobblestone has its detractors, for sure, but I think the course is a hoot.  Somehow, though, I can't see them hosting a major tournament on a regular basis.

In the meantime, before they set up a Rochester Rota, Monroe will be a great host.  It's certainly one of the best 3 or 4 courses in the area. The land is really unusual for Upstate New York, with great sandy soil and rumpled terrain that the routing uses artfully. The club also has good experience from hosting the more subdued Monroe Invitational.
"That's why Oscar can't see that!" - Philip E. "Timmy" Thomas

JNC Lyon

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Re: Trading an RTJ ReTool for a Ross: LPGA Championship 2014
« Reply #11 on: July 05, 2013, 07:57:06 PM »
Monroe is a great Ross routing with splendid rolling terrain.  Also clever /assertive bunkering, great variety of holes, some great par threes. The restored green complexes are very fun to play ,due to lively interior contours. For me, the most architecturally significant Ross course in New York State

Mark,

Good to see you posting again.  I'm hardly one to talk, as I have been a bit of a ghost myself.

I have to disagree with you on your statement that Monroe is the most "architecturally significant" Ross course in NY.  Love it or hate it, Oak Hill's East Course is probably the most "significant" DONALD JAMES ROSS course in the state from an architectural standpoint.  Monroe certainly has more of its Ross heritage intact, and the club at Monroe is certainly more interested in maintaining their Ross heritage.  So, if we are talking architectural purity, Monroe certainly wins in that category.  But from the standpoint of significance, Oak Hill takes the cake.  The East Course is a tale of both good, with its gorgeous land plan and superior routing, and bad, with its numerous renovations and redesigns of redesigns.  The Trent Jones re-do in the early 1950s was indicative of the changing game (and society) at the time, and the Fazio changes of the 70s (still present today) were shining examples of the dark age of GCA.  As tragic as it may be, Oak Hill East's architectural history is fascinating and, I believe, highly significant in golf history.

More on the pros and cons of the East Course leading up to the PGA...
« Last Edit: July 06, 2013, 09:04:59 AM by JNC Lyon »
"That's why Oscar can't see that!" - Philip E. "Timmy" Thomas

Ronald Montesano

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Re: Trading an RTJ ReTool for a Ross: LPGA Championship 2014
« Reply #12 on: July 05, 2013, 08:57:41 PM »

I'll bring back my Buffalo Golfer piece on Locust.  It's pretty brash stuff in hindsight, but I stand by it. http://buffalogolfer.com/wordpress/locust-hill-not-a-worthy-major-championship-venue/

Do you still write for BuffaloGolfer?
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Ronald Montesano

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Re: Trading an RTJ ReTool for a Ross: LPGA Championship 2014
« Reply #13 on: July 05, 2013, 08:59:11 PM »
I have to disagree with you on your statement that Monroe is the most "architecturally significant" Ross course in NY.  Love it or hate it, Oak Hill's East Course is probably the most "significant" course in the state from an architectural standpoint.  

You're correct...since Long Island and Westchester left New York state, all those architecturally-significant courses now belong to ... which state is it again?
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Dan Herrmann

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Re: Trading an RTJ ReTool for a Ross: LPGA Championship 2014
« Reply #14 on: July 05, 2013, 09:05:50 PM »
Monroe is one of the most enjoyable rounds of golf I've ever had.  A real gem, and a big win for the LPGA.

JNC Lyon

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Re: Trading an RTJ ReTool for a Ross: LPGA Championship 2014
« Reply #15 on: July 06, 2013, 12:22:22 AM »
I have to disagree with you on your statement that Monroe is the most "architecturally significant" Ross course in NY.  Love it or hate it, Oak Hill's East Course is probably the most "significant" course in the state from an architectural standpoint.  

You're correct...since Long Island and Westchester left New York state, all those architecturally-significant courses now belong to ... which state is it again?

The discussion was regarding Ross courses I believe.  As I stated in my first sentence.

I'm on hiatus from Buffalo Golfer at the moment  ;)
"That's why Oscar can't see that!" - Philip E. "Timmy" Thomas

Philip Caccamise

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Re: Trading an RTJ ReTool for a Ross: LPGA Championship 2014
« Reply #16 on: July 07, 2013, 01:07:51 AM »
I was very excited to hear that the LPGA Championship is moving from Locust to Monroe.  I've always thought that Locust provided a pretty poor representation of Rochester golf on the national stage.  Personally, there are two dozen or so golf courses in the Rochester area that I would rather play than Locust.  Several of them cost less than $20 to play, but people still line up to join Locust Hill, only to line up again to get a tee time on a Saturday morning.  It's tough to understand.

I'll bring back my Buffalo Golfer piece on Locust.  It's pretty brash stuff in hindsight, but I stand by it. http://buffalogolfer.com/wordpress/locust-hill-not-a-worthy-major-championship-venue/

Phil,

I like your idea of hosting the LPGA at a rotation of courses.  I won't speak to any rumors about Oak Hill playing host, but I always thought the West Course would be great for an LPGA event (and I mean that in the best possible way).  I think Ravenwood would also be a great host.  It's a very solid golf course (definitely inside my top 10 for the area), it has an excellent practice facility, and it would handle the crowds fairly easily.  I would also get a big kick out of seeing the tournament at Cobblestone Creek.  Cobblestone has its detractors, for sure, but I think the course is a hoot.  Somehow, though, I can't see them hosting a major tournament on a regular basis.

In the meantime, before they set up a Rochester Rota, Monroe will be a great host.  It's certainly one of the best 3 or 4 courses in the area. The land is really unusual for Upstate New York, with great sandy soil and rumpled terrain that the routing uses artfully. The club also has good experience from hosting the more subdued Monroe Invitational.

Ha ha, pretty scathing review of Locust Hill- and I agree with you 100%. It's dull as can be, only lacking houses on the course to complete the trifecta of bad. Yes, it's meticulously maintained, and the members tend to be great people, but I find it completely uninteresting.

Ravenwood... most like it much more than me. I find it to be kind of dull given the hype, with a few highlights sprinkled in. For the same price point in WNY I prefer Greystone, Bristol Harbor, Seneca Hickory Stick, Arrowhead, Diamond Hawk, and Whirlpool. But from the perspective of hosting an LPGA event, it would be excellent. Huge space and lots of viewing angles, and they can play it at a variety of lengths.

CCR would be another that I would LOVE to see part of this hypothetical rotation. A truly classic Ross that, if wanted, would be diabolical for the ladies. 2 or 3 under would almost certainly win. It's too short to handle the modern men bombers but just right for the ladies' game.

Cobblestone is a brutal walk and not very fan friendly in spots, but a really good tournament course (I loved playing that course!) that would test the ladies' game very well. I agree I doubt they would be interested in hosting though.

mark chalfant

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Re: Trading an RTJ ReTool for a Ross: LPGA Championship 2014
« Reply #17 on: July 10, 2013, 07:13:12 PM »
John,

There is a considerable difference between architectural significance and "tournament history". My phrase connotes which course is the most worthy of study. My golfing friend from Belgium  recently asked me what 4-5 New York State courses designed by Donald Ross he should seek out during his 2014 visit.

My reply was,

Monroe
Glens Falls
CC of Buffalo
Oak Hill West
Lake Teguega

    I stand by this for fun and interesting Golden Age golf,        but not for Middlecoff headlines or poor renovations



 
« Last Edit: July 11, 2013, 02:41:25 PM by mark chalfant »

Ronald Montesano

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Re: Trading an RTJ ReTool for a Ross: LPGA Championship 2014
« Reply #18 on: July 11, 2013, 05:09:04 PM »
Had a great twitter convo with Jay Skurski (buffalo News) and Aaron Alpern  (@buffalolooper) on whether or not the one-year contract with Monroe means it's a test for both entities (club and tour.) It segued into a discussion of a regional championship, moving the tourney to Buffalo, say, in 2015. River Oaks (Grand Island) site of an LPGA event in 1972 and 1973 and a Des Muirhead design, entered the discush.

My point: are the women professionals attentive to classic golf course architecture? More or less than the men? Would they care if they played a Ross one year and a Muirhead the next? This isn't the Masters, and I suspect that lots of the ladies have a firmer grasp of reality, as their tour nearly imploded three-four years back.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Philip Caccamise

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Re: Trading an RTJ ReTool for a Ross: LPGA Championship 2014
« Reply #19 on: July 11, 2013, 11:46:56 PM »
Had a great twitter convo with Jay Skurski (buffalo News) and Aaron Alpern  (@buffalolooper) on whether or not the one-year contract with Monroe means it's a test for both entities (club and tour.) It segued into a discussion of a regional championship, moving the tourney to Buffalo, say, in 2015. River Oaks (Grand Island) site of an LPGA event in 1972 and 1973 and a Des Muirhead design, entered the discush.

My point: are the women professionals attentive to classic golf course architecture? More or less than the men? Would they care if they played a Ross one year and a Muirhead the next? This isn't the Masters, and I suspect that lots of the ladies have a firmer grasp of reality, as their tour nearly imploded three-four years back.

I love the LPGA, but from what I've seen/heard, not really. Just last night top player So Yeon Ryu said Grey Silo was "her favorite course on tour". Looks like a decent but boring upscale daily fee to me. Especially when compared to Sebonack the week before!

Ronald Montesano

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Re: Trading an RTJ ReTool for a Ross: LPGA Championship 2014
« Reply #20 on: July 12, 2013, 08:49:19 PM »
favorite can be sliced open in a number of ways.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!