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Patrice Boissonnas

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Was Robert von Hagge a great architect?
« on: July 09, 2013, 12:55:14 PM »
Robert von Hagge built most of the best modern courses in my country of France : Les Bordes (ranked #1 in Continental Europe by Golf World), Seignosse, Kempferhof, Royal Mougins, Courson…
Although his exact contribution is not clear, he is also said to have participated in the design of Golf National in Paris which is the permanent venue of the French Open and the future host of the 2018 Ryder Cup.

I understand Robert spent 7 years with Dick Wilson from 1955 to 1962.
Together with his partners Smelek and Baril, he is credited for over 200 courses in the world.
He seems like a very talented architect to me with a lot in common with Pete Dye.

I know von Hagge passed away and can’t speak for himself anymore but why do we have so little information about him?
Except for Bogogno GC in Italy, I never heard or read anything about his work outside France.
How is von Hagge considered in other countries?
Have you played some of his courses? Which ones are considered best?
Do you have links to some of his interviews or paper wrote about him?

Thank you very much for sharing and helping me try to assess his legacy.

Joey Chase

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Re: Was Robert von Hagge a great architect?
« Reply #1 on: July 09, 2013, 03:08:33 PM »
Isn't saying he designed most of the best modern courses in France somewhat dismissive of RTJ?  Sperone, Vidauban, and Moliets are all quality courses. 

I have played only a few of his courses, the White Witch in Jamaica and Crystal Springs in New Jersey, along with Les Bordes in France.  His work is extremely challenging to me and a bit too penal.  Crystal Springs would likely be unplayable for a high handicapper.  It is visually dramatic as is White Witch. 

I would like to see more of his work that was done on less dramatic property.  Maybe it would show his abilities better?

Greg Gilson

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Re: Was Robert von Hagge a great architect?
« Reply #2 on: July 09, 2013, 03:38:50 PM »
Hi Patrice, its a year since we played together in Paris. I remember you praising Golf National the day before we played it. Having played Chantilly, Morfontaine, St Germaine & Fontainebleau I was skeptical. Naturally, Golf National is VERY different to the classic courses. However, and I cannot remember if I emailed you at the time, I agree it was a really fun course. It is extremely challenging & penal (we played the week after the French Open) but our group genuinely enjoyed the challenge (despite donating several sleeves of balls).

I have it the back of my head that von Hagge co-designed a course with Bruce Devlin here in Australia called Ocean Shores (located on the coast about 2 hours south of Brisbane. It was built in the 70's and was way ahead of its time (for Australia at least). Lots of water hazards & forced carries, huge greens, massive walks from green to tee, 6 each of 3's, 4's & 5's. it was too challenging for the locals and has struggled financially but survived. Despite $ challenges & resultant conditioning problems it is often regarded as one of Australia's unique courses. That's the only von Haage history I can help with....and it may be nothing but urban myth!

All the best!

Ben Baldwin

Re: Was Robert von Hagge a great architect?
« Reply #3 on: July 09, 2013, 03:54:25 PM »
I have always enjoyed his work at http://torreon.com/golf in the mountains of Arizona

Here is an article I found that was interesting - http://www.chron.com/sports/golf/article/Robert-von-Hagge-s-golf-courses-a-lasting-legacy-1717478.php

Maybe it's just me but I found the statement about 2 failed marriages to sisters (wow that second wedding had to be awkward) who were LPGA Touring pros fairly interesting.

David Davis

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Re: Was Robert von Hagge a great architect?
« Reply #4 on: July 09, 2013, 04:18:00 PM »
Hi Patrice,

As one of your Northern neighbors living up here in Amsterdam I've actually yet to play the course. I do know a little about it. I'd say it's by far von Hagge's best effort and perhaps that one course were you get the right piece of land to make something great out of. To be a great architect in history how many do you actually need? I guess there is a reason you've not heard so much about his other work. I've not either.

I'd like to be able to make more comments about it but can't as of yet. A friend of mine was a member until the new owners took over and everyone had to leave. I should of taken her up on the opportunity to play a few years ago but did not. I'm very curious still to compare it to my home course Noordwijkse that sits right behind it in the rankings.
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Ulrich Mayring

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Re: Was Robert von Hagge a great architect?
« Reply #5 on: July 09, 2013, 05:29:21 PM »
I've played Emporda in Spain, although I do not know how much Robert von Hagge himself did there and how much was done by his associates (Richard Baril I believe). Need to replay, but came away in two minds. They definitely have to do something about the noisy carts - it's rare that such a seemingly minor detail impacts my enjoyment of a course so profoundly. Some of the Forest course is really magical, but I wasn't particularly fond of the Links course and how the entire complex is an enclave of sorts, totally decoupled from the surrounding landscape.

Ulrich
Golf Course Exposé (300+ courses reviewed), Golf CV (how I keep track of 'em)

Sam Morrow

Re: Was Robert von Hagge a great architect?
« Reply #6 on: July 09, 2013, 07:48:46 PM »
I don't know if Von Hagge was a great architect but I know he was atleast very good. He did some very good stuff in Texas and was based here. I think his best work is when he was with Bruce Devlin.

David Davis

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Re: Was Robert von Hagge a great architect?
« Reply #7 on: July 09, 2013, 07:59:36 PM »
I've played Emporda in Spain, although I do not know how much Robert von Hagge himself did there and how much was done by his associates (Richard Baril I believe). Need to replay, but came away in two minds. They definitely have to do something about the noisy carts - it's rare that such a seemingly minor detail impacts my enjoyment of a course so profoundly. Some of the Forest course is really magical, but I wasn't particularly fond of the Links course and how the entire complex is an enclave of sorts, totally decoupled from the surrounding landscape.

Ulrich

I played these too last year. Funny I liked the links like course better although they were both rather average but fun for resort courses. I played El Prat and PGA de Catalunya on the same trip. Emporda was by for the lesser courses. Still fun though and both were very easy courses which fit's at such a resort.
Sharing the greatest experiences in golf.

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Chris_Blakely

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Re: Was Robert von Hagge a great architect?
« Reply #8 on: July 09, 2013, 08:38:59 PM »
He's the greatest architect to wear a cape!

The only course of his I have played is Grey Hawk outside of Cleveland OH. I found he course quite good for flat farmland.

Chris

Jeff Blume

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Re: Was Robert von Hagge a great architect?
« Reply #9 on: July 09, 2013, 10:46:27 PM »
Whether Robert was a great architect or not is open to interpretation.  Having worked for him for over seven years I can tell you that he was certainly a trend setter in the industry, and defined good design by his own set of standards.  Several years after he left Dick Wilson, he became one of the first architects to form a partnership with a touring pro (Bruce Devlin), and he was a pioneer in cultivating international commissions in Europe, South America, Central America, Japan, Australia and a couple in Africa. 

He had a very flamboyant personality and I think this came across in his design theory.  Robert looked at the shaping of a golf course as sculpture, and enjoyed shaping the earth in an effort to capture shadows.  His use of the ethereal qualities of light in his designs was truly groundbreaking.  His ability as an artist was second to none.  He would describe every shot on a golf course with three dimensional sketches that he would create in less than thirty minutes (and they were of a quality that you could frame and hang on a wall).

His appearance was certainly to his benefit.  Being 6 foot -6 inches tall and looking like the Marlboro Man does cause people to notice you, and he enhanced this image with his dapper style and grace.  His wife Greta (the love of his life for over forty years) was an actress who was in several movies in the late 1960's (as Greta Randall), and was a Gleason Girl on the Jackie Gleason Show.  Before Robert was a golf course architect he played a few events on the tour, was one of the original Marlboro Men, and played Joe Poluca on TV.  Needless to say, he led a very interesting life.

I happen to think that he was a great designer, but an even better person.  As a boss he was generous and caring, and he was willing to let his partners and staff spread their wings as architects and people.  Our Christmas parties were legendary and we had a very close knit group.  When I was a college kid he wrote four letters for me to try and help me find employment (letters were to Jack Nicklaus, Tom Fazio, Joe Lee and Karl Litten), and I still have them to this day.  Three years later he called me and offered me a job. 

Perhaps the greatest tribute to the man is the number of architects that are practicing today that passed through his office over the years.  GCA's Rick Baril and Kelly Moran, Mike Smelek, Rick Robbins, Karl Litten, and Ron Prichard all worked for Robert over the years.  Rick, Mike and Kelly were his partners when I was there, and I still consider them all good friends and colleagues.  They can probably give you better insight into the man as they all worked for him longer than I did.  Mike and Rick were with Robert for over a quarter of a century.

I certainly enjoyed my association with him, and consider myself lucky to have him as one who helped shape my career (along with Jeff Brauer).  It was an honor to know him.   

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Was Robert von Hagge a great architect?
« Reply #10 on: July 09, 2013, 10:58:59 PM »
I don't have the time right now, but, I enjoyed working with Bob.

As Jeff mentioned, he had some revolutionary ideas, especially about lighting and shadows.
I enjoyed watching him sketch features on site.

We kept in touch long after the project was complete.

I enjoyed every moment in contact with him.

Patrice Boissonnas

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Re: Was Robert von Hagge a great architect?
« Reply #11 on: July 10, 2013, 06:26:41 AM »
Thank you all for your replies/comments/testimonies.

He seems like someone I would have loved to meet but obviously I was too Young when he was busy here in France.

Should I be able to gather more information about his work, I would love to write an article about him in my French Journal du Golf. I think French readers would love to know more about him, and they would surely smile at the Marlboro man story !

Jeff, do you know anything about the work he did for Golf National? How much can be attributed to him? There has been a long legal dispute with French architect Hubert Chesneau who claims he is the architect and Bob was a consultant. Who did what is a big mystery...

Tom Fagerli

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Re: Was Robert von Hagge a great architect?
« Reply #12 on: July 10, 2013, 06:51:38 AM »
My most memorable Von Hagge course is Colony West in Tamarac FL. I played it in 1977 I believe so old clubs and balls. Every hole was LONGGG and had water bunkers and doglegs. Shot a million and loved every minute of it! I recall being in green side bunkers on 14 holes! We played it at 6600 or so and there were yards of teeing ground behind us. Bold, big, sweeping is how I recall it.

Rick Baril

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Re: Was Robert von Hagge a great architect?
« Reply #13 on: July 10, 2013, 07:35:05 AM »
Patrice,
Yesterday, I was informed of this thread.   
The answer to your first questions is yes - exceptional, distinctive and extraordinary. 

I worked with Robert for nearly 30 years and was involved with everything we designed in Europe, starting with Les Bordes.
 
You state; “Although his exact contribution is not clear, he is also said to have participated in the design of Golf National in Paris….”
In response to; “…contribution is not clear…”, I can only say the lack of clarity is not from our side.  We have always attempted to clearly report our involvement.  We routed the golf course and provided the strategic design.

This is a link to an old thread that explains a little about Le Golf National and our involvement.
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,20376.0.html

I’m sorry, I'm very busy for the next few days.  But, I will be happy to answer any questions and provide more insight as time permits. 
We're here because we aren't all there!

Patrice Boissonnas

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Re: Was Robert von Hagge a great architect?
« Reply #14 on: July 10, 2013, 08:07:43 AM »
Hi Rick,

thanks for posting this link. Very instructive stuff for me.
I hope you understand from my introduction to this thread that I am a big fan of v Hagge courses in France. Congratulations for all the great work you did on our soil!
I know Courson very well and would always include it in my French 10 favorite courses list.

Should you have time in the future, I would love to know more about your collaboration with Chesneau.
It's not so much a question of who deserves the credit but more about the working process. What do you mean by "defining the strategic options"? Did the French federation make choices you didn't like? Did you have other options in mind that were rejected?

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Was Robert von Hagge a great architect?
« Reply #15 on: July 10, 2013, 08:32:31 AM »
When I first moved to DFW, it seemed Von Hagge had the majority of the booming market back then.  His designs were very artistic, in the "land is putty" line of thinking.  Always striking to look at, which is why housing developers seemed to flock to him.  As mentioned, besides earth sculpture, he was always talking about shadows, at least in any presentation I ever heard him make, and it clearly showed in his work that it was a, if not the, prime emphasis.

If there were knocks on his work, it would be that those steep slopes that created shadows were very hard to maintain, and also, very penal.  He would often stick steep face banks jutting into fairways, and a fairly good tee shot might be severely punished.  So, some wondered if work that emphasized shadows over playability could be truly great and whether those courses that sold real estate so well for the developer ended up being enjoyable for the members that bought those houses on an every day basis.

My only real Von Hagge story is interviewing right after him for the same project in South Texas.  He stuck around chatting a bit while I set up the slide projector, clearly charming the women on the committee, kissing their hands, telling them how nice they smelled.  I couldn't help but snidely joke that the last time I commented on how a woman smelled, it was to tell her how BAD she smelled.........of course, he got that job, but it never got built as far as I remember.  Clearly a great salesman.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Lou_Duran

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Re: Was Robert von Hagge a great architect?
« Reply #16 on: July 10, 2013, 09:43:46 AM »
I've played a number of RvH courses and the two common themes are mounds and difficulty.  I once commented to a guy who worked with RvH that I enjoyed the courses he designed with Bruce Devlin (e.g. Crown Colony, Walden) more than those he did solo (Northgate, Playacar).  Northgate, not far from Champions north of Houston, is the hardest short course I've ever played.  A former golf mate of mine was the club champion there some 8-10 times, winning once by 12-15 strokes, hit balls with RvH a few times and spoke highly of his playing ability, his social skills, and his infatuation with shadows.  I am not sure about the architectural merits of these, but the third nine at Northgate early in the morning or late in the evening is enchanting.  Though I am not a fan of this style, given his large body of work spread widely geographically, he probably is a great architect.   

http://www.chron.com/sports/golf/article/Robert-von-Hagge-s-golf-courses-a-lasting-legacy-1717478.php

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Was Robert von Hagge a great architect?
« Reply #17 on: July 10, 2013, 03:02:55 PM »
Jeff Brauer,

Those steep slopes also presented a hazard to those driving carts, thus we muted some of them.

But to me, his most revolutionary feature was a tiered bunker he wanted to build.

Think about it, a bunker not dissimilar from a plateaued green, with two levels.

I thought that it would be a headache to maintain, but the idea fascinated me.

Very creative

Frank Pont

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Re: Was Robert von Hagge a great architect? New
« Reply #18 on: July 11, 2013, 12:04:35 PM »
YES.

However I have very dual feelings about von Hagge's courses.

I LOVE playing his courses. They are often very hard, but incredibly fun to play. Offer choices to take lost of risks and lose lots of balls or play it safe. Very creative greens and green surrounds.

The dualism is that I really dislike the shaping and landscaping, its just so unnatural.


PS.  Funny enough I played the same trip David Davis played a month ago Emporda, Catalunya and El Prat. And like on many other courses I completely disagree with his assesment  :), Emporda was way more fun and strategic to play that the other two....
« Last Edit: July 16, 2013, 01:33:59 AM by Frank Pont »

Randy Thompson

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Re: Was Robert von Hagge a great architect?
« Reply #19 on: July 11, 2013, 01:27:49 PM »
Yes he was and even a greater person! He surrounded himslef with great people and created great structures, as do most architect who have over 200 courses. Hopefully you will do an article. Rick is a great source since he covered the majority of the European contracts. Kelly blake Moran is another good source and memeber of this site and was a partner for many years. If you can find Jim Shirley he would be a good person to contact. He was involved in the construction of some of the higher ranked European courses and last I heard he was still in France! In 1989-1990 Bob and I had come to a mutual agreement and I was going to move to France and cover a couple of projects in construction and at the same time open a small sales office representing the firm. Unfortunately, the economy took a dive and a lots of contracts were suspended and so we put it on hold and I ended up coming to South America to oversee the construction of a RVH proposed thirty six holes development that ended up being 27! That was twenty two years ago and I am still here... living happily ever after!

Dónal Ó Ceallaigh

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Re: Was Robert von Hagge a great architect?
« Reply #20 on: July 11, 2013, 07:01:55 PM »
I think it's important to recognise the work done by those that are no longer with us. It would be great if you guys got together and documented his work; it could be a "In My Opinion" piece on this web-site.

cary lichtenstein

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Re: Was Robert von Hagge a great architect?
« Reply #21 on: July 11, 2013, 07:30:16 PM »
When it was time for me to retire, I chose Admirals Cove in Jupiter, which was a Von Hagge course. I enjoyed every round there and when it came time to renovate it, I fought for him to get the job and when he did, I'm not sure who was responsible for doing the work, but I thought it enhanced the experience.
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

Patrice Boissonnas

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Re: Was Robert von Hagge a great architect?
« Reply #22 on: July 12, 2013, 09:27:33 AM »
Thank you guys for all your replies.
This is really getting us somewhere and I am glad I started this thread.

When the time is right, I should definitely try to get in touch with all of you who worked with him and write an article.
I am also strongly in favor of some of you writing your memories down in the "in my opinion" section.

In the meantime, I have 2 more questions :
1 - where did he get his inspiration for his  landscapes? Did he, like Pete Dye, have an epiphany in Scotland ? Did he receive any artistic education or was he a natural born artist?

2 - Who did the shaping for him? Randy, were you a shaper? Who were the shapers working in France? On Golf National?

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Was Robert von Hagge a great architect?
« Reply #23 on: July 12, 2013, 09:52:30 AM »
Patrice,

Rodney .......... His last name will come to me shortly

He took him from the job in Florida to his projects in Japan

Casey Wade

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Re: Was Robert von Hagge a great architect?
« Reply #24 on: July 12, 2013, 11:19:00 AM »
Yes he was and even a greater person! He surrounded himslef with great people and created great structures, as do most architect who have over 200 courses. Hopefully you will do an article. Rick is a great source since he covered the majority of the European contracts. Kelly blake Moran is another good source and memeber of this site and was a partner for many years. If you can find Jim Shirley he would be a good person to contact. He was involved in the construction of some of the higher ranked European courses and last I heard he was still in France! In 1989-1990 Bob and I had come to a mutual agreement and I was going to move to France and cover a couple of projects in construction and at the same time open a small sales office representing the firm. Unfortunately, the economy took a dive and a lots of contracts were suspended and so we put it on hold and I ended up coming to South America to oversee the construction of a RVH proposed thirty six holes development that ended up being 27! That was twenty two years ago and I am still here... living happily ever after!

Randy, I am very good friends with Steve Shirley, Jim's son and Jim has moved back to the States and is in Austin Texas.
Some people are alive simply because it is illegal to shoot them.

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