When does the challenge become so tedious that enjoyment is lost and you want

[Patrick_Mucci]

the round to be over ?

On what course has that happened to you ?

And, what was the cause........architecturally ?

[Mac Plumart]

When does the challenge become so tedious that enjoyment is lost and you want the round to be over ?

I'd say when you can not pull off the required shots and there are no alternative options for playing the hole/course.

[John Sabino]

Trump Bedminster was too much because the rough was too high and after a while it wasn't enjoyable. This is not so much an architecture issue as it is a setup issue, although the philosophy of harder is better, I don't subscribe to. I understand I should hit it in the fairway and I wouldn't have the problem, but it was not fun.

The other course I thought was too much was Addington, too many uphill shots to greens and too much quirky. I am a big fan of quirky and unusual, but when that's all there is it takes out the enjoyment. Same issue as Trump also, the rough was way too high, although in Addington's case it seems to be due to their low maintenance approach.

Lastly, many resort courses in Florida have too much water, which removes enjoyment. Variety is the spice of life.

[Chris DeNigris]

I think it's more of a factor of how you're playing (and maybe the weather). If I'm hitting it reasonably well I can't think of a course that I wouldn't want to be playing and keep playing...start to finish-just because it was too challenging.  And I'm assuming we're not talking about playing a really horrible course.

A couple of years ago on my annual pilgrimage to the BPB car lot I was grouped with a couple of overconfident local young guys...who insisted on playing from the tips. I normally play it from the whites- a pretty challenging 6700 yards- but I played along. The rough was up from a recent NY State tournament and the course played tough as nails. I was hitting it decent and even though I didn't score very well it was still a blast.

Now, if it it's a day when I'm hitting it sideways...

[John Scharon]

There was a short lived course in the Cleveland, OH, area called Blue Heron, that had this effect on me, and many others.  I played it once and swore never to return, then gave it another try and wondered why I hadn't kept my original resolution.

And, yes, it was all due to the archtecture.  This was a Troon Golf property, and it looked as though generic plans for a desert course had been imposed on some pretty nice Ohio property, heavily wooded with several ravines.  The entire round felt like forced layups or tough carries, to narrow fairways with no lateral room for misses either.  Just brutal. 
 

[John Ezekowitz]

This happened to me at Galloway National in a tournament a couple of years ago. We played the course fully tipped out in the middle of heat wave with the greens, which are very lumpy, running 12. I remember killing my drive on one of the interminable par 4s on the back nine (14 or 15?) and having a 3-wood uphill to a green fronted by a deep bunker and just wanting the round to be over.

[Jeff_Brauer]

From memory, when I am not playing well, any of the following have discouraged me:

Lightning fast greens (Oakmont)
 
Heavy rough (any number of places, including Merion)

Water (Doral and many Florida courses with lakes on nearly every hole, sometimes on both holes)

70 bunkers or more (most recently La Costa, but many Dick Wilson, Joe Lee or RTJ course, with some Pete Dye courses counting as well.  I normally hit 0-2 bunkers a round, but when every LZ and green has 3-5 bunkers, you are just going to hit that many more.)

Oddly, I can't recall any heavily treed courses ruining my fun.  I am normally pretty straight.

In general, those courses with hazards everywhere are just going to beat the average golfer up.  Rough seems to be the absolute worst to me.  But, in playing couples golf at La Costa last week, the pure number of sand bunkers affected the wives.

Basically, any tough hazards, liberally employed, can make the day miserable.

[Ken Moum]

It happens to me more often than I'd like to admit.

Two very different courses that make me feel that way are Colbert Hills in my home state of Kansas and Ocotillo in Arizona.

They both have holes where I feel totally handcuffed by layups that don't make sense.  A seven iron off the tee, leaving a 220-yard second shot, or a water hazard that's so far from the tee I can't get close enough in two shots to carry with my third.

And at Colbert, there are just too many holes where every bad shot results in a lost ball.

K

[Bill_McBride]

the round to be over ?

On what course has that happened to you ?

And, what was the cause........architecturally ?

I'll show you mine if you'll show me yours....

Olympic Lake beat me up with that unending series of long par 4s.   

How about you?

[noonan]

We played a nice public course last Wednesday. Honestly it was in better shape than my club. It is shorter and easier.

I had much more fun!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Chris,

Could the course determine how you play ?.

Not long ago I played Pound Ridge and a number of the issues Jeff mentioned, combined with having to wait on every shot made me want the round to end ASAP.

Part of the "waiting on every shot" had to be due to the gimmickie nature of the course, the narrow playing corridors and penal areas that most golfers will find on more than a few occassions during the round.

For a threesome to play in 4:40 is no joy

While the rough wasn't as punitive as in the past, the other architectural negatives remained.

Ridiculously narrow playing corridors flanked by ESA's were no joy and to some in my group, overly heroic carries, with no bail out areas, contributed to lengthening the round.  Soft approaches and firm greens were also no joy to approach or recover to.

At times, you have to wonder, don't the people who administer to the course, play the course ?

Could they be blind to the factors that diminish the enjoyment ?

I like quirky architecture, but, I don't like gimmickie architecture.

[V. Kmetz]

Oh Jesus Pat, I'll go on and on to the point no one will post anymore but I think the most recent meaningful instance was at:

Oxford Greens in Connecticut in Fall 2008.

Having already been well-sensitized like any good Golf Club Atlas crank, I approached my unusual (in that I never play golf on Saturdays) weekend morning round at this new $90 + 1/2 cart daily fee with Buzz...warily.  These fears were met and even exacerbated by the swarm of gate keepers and errand-runners I met intending to offer "private club service at upper middle class daily fee prices."

Thinking on it now; I literally encountered six demi-employed souls with different staff-logo titles on their shirt before I hit a practice putt.

On to the course...The first two holes were fairly attractive...
-a wide, straight 385ish four with a Road Complex (the road is simply the cartpath with open grass behind and upscale development houses beyond) green.
-a fairly handsome Redan/Cape par 3, downhill into a meadow pond.  Amusing contours at the very front and a broad enough approach area to make the bailout have to play through them

I thought, "This might be fun."  I bogeyed both with shit, unpracticed hands of a rapist type greenside play...but still, there was hope it was going to be fun to play this course.

And then:



a 600+ job with nothing but bank and hillside and fescue and cart paths and sheer exhaustion and like 20-23 minutes to play for a threesome. The small picture doesn't do it justice.  Its named "Scoundrel" (get it) and the thing it steals is your want to ever play Golf again...worse over, the subsequent holes kept up that pitch...

cheers

vk

[Matthew Rose]

Watching the group in front of me search for lost balls in waist high rough on every. Single. Hole.

[PThomas]

Congressional Patrick ...long and hard with rough that I could only pitch out of

[Nigel Islam]

For me it was Blackwolf Run, River just after we were warned by the marshall to pick up the pace. We had just spent the entire front nine looking for the other three players balls. I preceded to lose 4 balls on the back and swear to someday return and cut down that tree on #13.    I just don't get why a course that wants to herd players around would have rough thick enough to slow down play.

[Bill Brightly]

Metedeconk. Played it last Saturday, and while warming up on their excellent range, I was pumped up our group to play all 27 holes, and we agreed we would ride the last nine. By the time we finished the 18th (on a brutally hot day) no one even mentioned playing more, we headed straight for the bar.

A beautiful course with superb conditioning, bu SOOO hard, and all the par 5's are over designed, meaning the hazards around the greens are so severe, no one in their right mind will attempt to go for the greens in two. One of our group hit a 280 yard drive, then gap wedge short of a marsh rather than go for the elevated and tightly bunkered green from 250.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bill,

Throw in the reverse camber fairways and it becomes a chore.

I don't get it, in fact I never got it.

Why design and build a course that's beyond the ability of the members to play with enjoyment

[Matt Glore]

For me it was Blackwolf Run, River just after we were warned by the marshall to pick up the pace. We had just spent the entire front nine looking for the other three players balls. I preceded to lose 4 balls on the back and swear to someday return and cut down that tree on #13.    I just don't get why a course that wants to herd players around would have rough thick enough to slow down play.

This course was the closest one to what you asked.  I didn't I've up but, me and my golfing buddy were ready to raise the white flag on a few occasions.  Greens running around 12 and 95 deg heat didn't help. 

[Tim Martin]

Oh Jesus Pat, I'll go on and on to the point no one will post anymore but I think the most recent meaningful instance was at:

Oxford Greens in Connecticut in Fall 2008.

Having already been well-sensitized like any good Golf Club Atlas crank, I approached my unusual (in that I never play golf on Saturdays) weekend morning round at this new $90 + 1/2 cart daily fee with Buzz...warily.  These fears were met and even exacerbated by the swarm of gate keepers and errand-runners I met intending to offer "private club service at upper middle class daily fee prices."

Thinking on it now; I literally encountered six demi-employed souls with different staff-logo titles on their shirt before I hit a practice putt.

On to the course...The first two holes were fairly attractive...
-a wide, straight 385ish four with a Road Complex (the road is simply the cartpath with open grass behind and upscale development houses beyond) green.
-a fairly handsome Redan/Cape par 3, downhill into a meadow pond.  Amusing contours at the very front and a broad enough approach area to make the bailout have to play through them

I thought, "This might be fun."  I bogeyed both with shit, unpracticed hands of a rapist type greenside play...but still, there was hope it was going to be fun to play this course.

And then:



a 600+ job with nothing but bank and hillside and fescue and cart paths and sheer exhaustion and like 20-23 minutes to play for a threesome. The small picture doesn't do it justice.  Its named "Scoundrel" (get it) and the thing it steals is your want to ever play Golf again...worse over, the subsequent holes kept up that pitch...

cheers

vk

VK- Oxford really is a torture chamber but the shame is that I thought it had a good set of greens. The housing really is an eyesore with the Del Webb homes piled on top of each other which are all basically the same. This place has truly struggled to attract members and has had more promotions than a traveling salesman.

[Ally Mcintosh]

When you are playing in a fourball and spend every hole looking for someone's ball in the hay...

[Tom ORourke]

This may not happen often when you play from the right tees but I hated hitting nothing but woods into greens. Even when I was younger Wilmington South was nasty. It tended to play soft and long in the summer and had 2 par 5s over 600, a 235 yard par 3 (over water), and some long 4s. The fifth is a 475 yard par 4. The course starts 440, 420. The 3rd is 630 with water in front. The 16th is 611. I am now too old to go back to those tees, but even when I was a better (younger) player this was too much for me. There is no shame in having a few par 4s under 400. I always looked at the scorecard of a new course to see how many par 4s were over 425. If the count was 6 or more, I knew I was in trouble. I am not saying that Wilmington is not an excellent course. It is. It has always been a better course than I ever was as a player, and it was not an enjoyable endeavor for me. I might like it better now that I play from the whites.

[BHoover]

Generally, I enjoy playing any course if I'm playing well.  If I'm playing poorly and can't seem to do anything right, then it takes a great course to keep me really interested.  Other than how I'm playing, I sometimes lose interest if the pace is really slow and the weather is really hot and humid. 

The only time that architecture has caused me to want to stop playing was on a trip to Florida a few years ago.  I was playing a generally forgettable course in the Jacksonville area.  The holes started to blend together...unwalkable, pond or stream next to the fairway or green, and unremarkable green contouring and forgettable routing.  I finished the round, but I told my buddy who I had come to visit that I had no interest in playing another round on that trip.

The next time I went to Jacksonville, however, I discovered Timuquana CC...I did NOT lose interest in that course.

[Joe Bausch]

This one is easy for me:  Bethpage Black from the back tees.  Obviously the solution is for me to play from the white tees even when my younger playing partners still for the most part can handle it from the tips.

[Patrick_Mucci]

This one is easy for me:  Bethpage Black from the back tees.  Obviously the solution is for me to play from the white tees even when my younger playing partners still for the most part can handle it from the tips.

Joe,

That's more of a decision that each golf makes on the first tee, and probably a universal in terms of being overwhelmed by the challenge, which is primarily distance.

[Adam Clayman]

Pat. Your query reminds of something Tom Fazio said to Steve Wynn when Wynn was wooing him for the Shadow Creek job.

The Faz was reluctant to work for a guy like Wynn. When asked why, he told Wynn that he, and the golfer, would be burned out by the fourth hole if  he gave him what he asked for.

The point is, a golf course has to ebb inorder to give impact to the flow.

Thats why anyone can build a hard golf course.