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DMoriarty

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Re: The devil made me do it
« Reply #25 on: July 06, 2013, 02:42:25 PM »
Yes, I know you disagree, Rich, and you have long disagreed.  But it isn't me with whom you are disagreeing, it is with Merion's own record of what happened.  Because much of what I wrote above comes straight from Merion's record.  Everything in this paragraph came directly from Merion's own records, except for the last sentence  and it obviously follows.  

The various records leave no doubt that Macdonald and Whigham were not just brought in to approve some plan Wilson had come up with on his own.  They had been involved in the actual planning from the very beginning.  Merion purchased the property based "largely" on Macdonald's and Whigham's "opinions as to what could be done with the land." They continued to advise Merion thereafter and "their advice and suggestions as to the the layout of the East Course was of the greatest help and value."  And they determined the final plan after again going over the land and  "various plans" in April 1911.  So it was by no means solely a Wilson/Merion plan they approved.  

So do you disagree with this paragraph?  If so, then with what do you disagree?  Do you disagree Lesley's account of the decision to purchase the land?   Do you disagree Alan Wilson's description of the help provided at NGLA?  Do you disagree Lesley's description of what CBM and HJW did at Merion in April 1911?   Which of these sources got it wrong?




« Last Edit: July 06, 2013, 03:06:50 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Dan Herrmann

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Re: The devil made me do it
« Reply #26 on: July 06, 2013, 02:50:26 PM »
David,
Do you have all your evidence on a single web page that we can look at?  Reason I ask is that the italicized paragraph above seems to be your writing with quotes from source material.  Having access to that source material could provide clarity, because otherwise, I'm with Rich (I know this well known to you).

Paul Jones

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Re: The devil made me do it
« Reply #27 on: July 06, 2013, 03:01:23 PM »
That is interesting read and good find.  Thanks for sharing.

Paul
Paul Jones
pauljones@live.com

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The devil made me do it
« Reply #28 on: July 06, 2013, 03:06:20 PM »
Dan,

I am not going to waste my time compiling webpages for you  You've made obvious that you are sticking with your buddies no matter what the facts.  If I did you'd only doubt my choices for exclusion and inclusion. Rather than never contributing anything yourself,  why don't you put together all the facts yourself and honestly examine them?  If you ever did, you'd find that your and your buddies' current take on the matter is untenable.

As for the paragraph above, it is directly derived from sources that have been covered here repeatedly.  
   The first sentence is introductory and summarizes what is to come.
   The second sentence is directly supported by the July 1, 1910 Lesley Report to the board and the November 15 communications from the Board to the Membership, both of which establish that Merion was purchasing the land based largely on CBM's and HJW's opinions "as to what could be done with the property."
   The third sentence comes from Alan Wilson's description of what happened at NGLA.  ("They also had our Committee as their guests at the National and their advice and suggestions as to the lay-out of the East Course were of the greatest help and value.")
  The fourth sentence comes from Lesley's April 1911 report.  ("On April 6th Mr. Macdonald and Mr. Whigham came over and spent the day on the ground, and after looking over the various plans, and the ground itself, decided that if we would lay it out according to the plan they approved, which is submitted here-with, that it would result not only in a first class course, but that the last seven holes would be equal to any inland course in the world.")

I could add to that various other sources indicating that Wilson was working closely with Merion on the layout, but this ought to do.  

So which of these sources has it wrong?
« Last Edit: July 06, 2013, 03:12:18 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The devil made me do it
« Reply #29 on: July 06, 2013, 03:11:43 PM »
As an aside, I thought the article's note about the West course being in the "woods" without an access road to be fascinating.

Rich - In my line of work, a "consultant' never approves anything.  Granted, this is 2013-era thinking, and I'm unsure of what the 1910's were like. 

Not having been trained in the art of parsing words- i.e. I didn't go to law school- doesn't it really come down to what the meaning of the word "is" is?  My experience in consulting and with consultants is that the word "recommends" is, in practice, nearly identical to "approves".  This is particularly true in the public sector where consultants are often hired to provide cover and deflect blame when the stuff hits the fan (as "in accordance with the relevant policies and procedures, we followed the advice of the experts; who could have known ......).  To a lesser extent this also happens in industry though here the level of thinking and analysis tends to be a bit more sophisticated, but the boots on the ground are generally the real subject experts, and the consultants mostly support and present the dominant management position.  

David M,

Matt Ward was easy to dismiss but I found much of his analysis to be sound.  I have come across few people who had a better memory of features and details even years after visiting a course.  Your comments about playing Merion resonate.  And though I no longer chase playing the best courses, I may try to get a game a Merion after things quiet down a bit and make that comparison myself.

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The devil made me do it
« Reply #30 on: July 06, 2013, 03:24:38 PM »
 One thing I love about Joe Bausch----he knows how to drop a bomb into gca.com and calmly walk away.
AKA Mayday

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The devil made me do it
« Reply #31 on: July 06, 2013, 03:25:18 PM »
Jim,

Okay, sorry for this, and it probably turned into more like 45 minutes of rapid fire typing.     This list has been going through my mind for five years, and you asked for it, so its as good a time to summarize the flaws I find in his logical extensions as any, rather than continue to pick at it point by point.  

I will probably be criticized for the term “data points” and for exaggerating these historical references from dozens to hundreds.  You have followed these threads and know the main ones well.  From quick memory (because it really deserves no more time than this, here are many items that don’t jive with DM’s routing theory, at least IMHO:

CBM implies he needs a topo to route and says he doesn’t have one.  DM presumes he doesn’t need one to route.

He uses “your problem” - DM presumes he means “I have started your routing”

Ditto on turning the phrase "I think you can do what you propose to do" into starting a routing plan, rather than evaluating the land as he was asked to do.

Merion always used the tense of “our problem”

No record of written communications between CBM and Merion in 1910 other than the letter -

No record of phone communications between CBM and Merion in 1910. – see above.  Also, ignores later record of Wilson using letters to
Oakley for semi urgent construction matters (what do I use for fertilizer? Etc. by letter.

No record of Francis being involved in 1910 – DM assumes it MUST BE so in his essay.

No drawn plan from CBM or others

Presumes CBM’s method of routing NGLA would set the tone for Merion, even though the big difference of CBM being in charge of his own project rather than asked to consult on someone else’s land.

No record that Merion ever asked CBM to route course.

No record of CBM wasting time routing for others on property he wasn’t even sure they owned.

Presumes that there was little secrecy in the Dallas Estate purchase (or that CBM started work after August 1911 when land was bought)

November plan shows no routing, DM presumes there was one.

November plan shows no topo maps, DM presumes there was one.

November plan clearly shows narrower triangle north of Haverford Property Line as Merion property, and road as approximate, David assumes it has already been moved but not shown on plan.

David presumes the right to change the road is only for further changes after the land swap, but no record of multiple changes

Presumes Merion presents an incorrect map to its members to vote on.

Presumes surveyor or engineer would present incorrect map.

Presumes the vague statement “Experts are already at work” in Dec. 1910 can only refer to CBM.

Ignores Merion’s record thanking CBM, thinks there must have been some undocumented arrangement to CBM to formally design course that is never mentioned in the records.



Moving to 1911,

Uses committee structure and titles to minimize Wilson’s involvement in routing. (might actually be true)

Ignores committee structures, titles, and Francis recollections of who he worked with to place Francis earlier in process, working with Lloyd, who other than looking at the land swap hasn’t ever really been credited with a hands on approach to the committee.

Ignores first mention of having a topo map about Feb 1, 1911 as coinciding with its arrival.  Thinks CBM has had one for months.

Presumes topo map sent to Oakley had routing on it, but I believe the sections were merely lettered, no?  BTW, here is David’s essay on the subject.  He starts by saying it would have been helpful to have included the golf holes on the map, but can only presume the routing was done earlier, and then speculate that they must have been!

Notably, in the February 1st letter, Wilson also wrote that he was sending Piper a contour map so that Piper could mark sections from where he wanted topsoil samples. Of course such a map would have been most worthwhile if it showed the golf holes, so that Piper would know from where to choose the soil samples. Given that the routing had been known for months, and given that experts (most likely Macdonald and Whigham) had been working on preparing the plans, and given that Wilson and his Committee had just spent three days with Macdonald and Whigham learning how to build the course, it seems extremely likely Wilson had been working out the particulars of the plan with Macdonald, and that he sent Piper a contour map of that plan.

Check out all the qualifiers in one of his main points just in one paragraph!

Ignores the Merion report which says they took “many plans” to their meeting at NGLA.

Ignores standard English convention, in interpreting Merion’s report of looking over CBM’s “many plans and information about holes abroad” to interpret it as looking over CBM’s many plans FOR MERION and information about holes abroad”.

Ignores the five plans they drew upon return from NGLA as nothing more than variations on the plan CBM drew them (the one that has never been seen or hinted at)

BTW, again from his essay, not how he starts this statement with “presumably” rather than any correlated facts.  It is all speculation, with no backup.  I think we later learned that his timing of the NGLA trip was wrong:

Presumably, any such discussions between the Construction Committee and Macdonald occurred while the Committee was meeting with Macdonald and Whigham at NGLA. If not, then Wilson and his Committee had even more contact with Macdonald than is currently known. Either way, Wilson and his Committee began discussing the details of Merion East with Macdonald shortly after the Committee was appointed in January 1911.

Ignores meeting minutes which credit CBM as an advisor (and many other club documents later)

Ignores Francis recollections from 1950 US Open program as confused:
 
 Thinks he forgot to mention working with CBM in routing the course, when asked specifically to recollect how it got designed.

  Says Francis was wrong about the blasting occurring soon after the land swap was executed.  (no real explanation, other than it doesn’t fit his timeline)

  Presumes Merion would be blasting rock from land not owned, despite no deeds, easements, mentions of such contract or arrangement in any documentation.

Ignores Francis when he tells us exactly who was spending many hours in routing – Wilson, Griscom, etc. (in other words, the construction committee)

Presumes Francis taking swap plan to Lloyd means it happened before Construction committee, and not just because Lloyd was both higher up in the MCC structure, but also holder of the land, and only one able to approve buying extra acres, while Wilson could not.

Presumes the phrase “laying out” was only used in one way, despite many examples of it used in connection with planning, and at least one example where if he was right, Merion wrote that the committee was in charge of “Laying out and building the golf course” which would have read “building and building the golf course”

Presumes CBM’s use of “approved” was in the second formal sense Mike Cirba posted, and not just the first, less formal approval, which is also a valid definition. 

Presumes many more contacts with CBM that went unrecorded, despite careful recording of three known visits and contacts.

Presumes that April discussion, vote and agreement on land swap was simply done much later than the actual agreement, despite this being fairly unusual to ignore major developments at board meetings.

Presumes Merion would ignore land swap over multiple meetings purposely.

Presumes that the phrase “land already bought” means nothing.  Land is recorded as bought in December, so if this swap was agreed to, it must have been prior to that, but this is unrecorded and in conflict with the actual purchase date.

Presumes Findlay’s statement about the many Alps holes CBM created can only mean other holes CBM created at Merion rather than other Alps holes he had made elsewhere.  About a 50% chance of his interpretation being correct on this oddly worded statement.

Presumes nearly every other writer crediting Wilson in that era is wrong.

He takes Wilson comment that “fortunately” Macdonald and Whigham had given Wilson and his Committee “a good start in the correct principles of laying out the holes,” to mean CBM designed it for them.  Denies that trip to NGLA could have been mostly educational.  (Now, to be fair, I also believe he gave routing advice because they went with many plans, and basically started over upon return from the trip)

BTW, by DM’s way of thinking, he gave them a lesson in surveying or laying them out on the ground, no?  There aren’t really any principes involved in measuring, are there?  But, there are in designing golf courses, no?  Pure speculation, no back up.

From DM’s original essay and speaking of Wilson’s words in Pipers agronomy book:

Wilson next credited Macdonald and Whigham with giving the committee a “good start in the correct principles of laying out the holes.” In so doing, Wilson was not abruptly changing the topic to golf course design. To the contrary, Wilson was discussing the construction of the course, and was being quite literal.  

Believes HJW is absolutely correct at CBM Eulogy, even though it is the only mention ever that CBM designed Merion.  He dismisses much of what others at Merion wrote as being uninformed (such as Alan Wilson's interviews and report upon his brother's death)

Thinks HJW “was there” but I always wondered that if and when Hugh picked up the telly, if CBM waited for HJW to come over to his office to fill him in on every conversation?  Of course not….first, he probably didn’t call, and second, no one was going to pay long distance rates to be put on hold!  Short version, we don’t have evidence of further CBM involvement, much less that HJW came over to review every little detail.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I could go on, and that is about twenty minutes of typing from memory, and that is more than enough.

Go back and read his essay – I did again.  On the key points of routing in 1910, his conclusions are really mostly consisting of “they MUST HAVE” without a full connecting of the dots.  He really doesn’t have a second, third or fourth backup source for his conclusions.  In fact, I recall several instances of him vouching for his own evidence, which isn’t acceptable in court or historical research.

I see David has rebukes for everything I say.  He always does.  Of course, he has already provided lengthy answers to the questions above, and can post his answers (once again) if he wishes.  His personality type, and folks in his position of losing in the big picture do tend to focus on small details that may be wrong, go from offense to defense, etc.  

The problem, as I have always seen it, I rarely accept complicated explanations when simple ones will do.  I sure don’t accept that multiple coincidental complicated explanations can exist anywhere but in a lawyers mind, and perhaps Hollywood TV shows.  An honest reply to the dozens of points above should be possible in several yes and no answers, points to documents (rather than him vouching for his interpretations of parts of some documents) and the like, no?

In my mind, he has basically taken 4-6 ambiguous words, phrases or statements, like a lawyer would, and twisted them into an alternate routing scenario that certainly add a bit of doubt to what is said.  However, this is not a courtroom.

  All of those alternate theories/interpretations would have to be true – and by definition there is about a 50% chance at most his interpretations of any one of those is right.  Also, an awful lot of non-standard and nonsensical stuff would have had to have happened, and happened to the record for his timeline to be true. 

On the other hand, to make it Wilson and the committee routing the course from the time they get the topos in January 1911, it all fits like a glove, save a few ambiguities in wording here and there.

In the end, I will say he has actually seemed to soften a few points from his 2008 essay, much like Mike Cirba and TePaul have softened their stances on certain things, but neither is quite ready to concede that the other side needs to agree with them even more strenuously!  Sometimes it seems David is just frustrated that all CBM doesn't get more credit, although he usually denies that, saying he is more interested in finding a timeline of what really happened.

There is probably more agreement than not that CBM was a trusted advisor, and that Merion wouldn’t have looked quite the way it did and does if he had not been so helpful.  That did seem to get lost along the way, and David highlighted it, corrected some facts (like the trip) filled in some knowledge (like the Whigham cost estimates) that are important to know.  As I have always said, I don’t think he needs to in making the point that CBM was thought of as more valuable at the time of construction than later historians remembered.

However, he has far from proven that CBM did most of the routing in 1910.  After five years, he has a dozen known supporters, probably fewer.  Merion, the USGA and many others remain apparently unconvinced, based on the recent US Open and all that was said there.  If this were a prize fight, wouldn't the ref call it for the sake of David's well being?  Of course, that is not the nature of the internet, and so it continues.

As you can tell, I always enjoy a spirited debate with smart folks, as it keeps the mind sharp, and David is certainly that.  It probably speaks to some aspect of my character, and not an altogether positive one at that!  

I think the above is pretty self explanatory.  David and a few others will question some of it.  I understand.  And, some of it is open to debate.  But, I doubt I will prolong the agony much further here.  I sure won't answer point by point unless David goes in and gives us one source, preferably two, that support his views, other than his many "logical extensions" which I think are more speculation to deliver an alternate theory as much as anything.

Thanks for listening, and I hope I didn't ruin anyone's day.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The devil made me do it
« Reply #32 on: July 06, 2013, 03:33:41 PM »
Jeff - excellent essay.  Thanks.

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The devil made me do it
« Reply #33 on: July 06, 2013, 03:38:51 PM »
Jeff Brauer,

I didn't make it far into your list and probably won't bother. It is obvious you are throwing things out there without any interest in my real views or in the actual record, and it would take a week to set the record straight.   It is amazing, after all this time, how little you seem to understand about my actual position on these matters.   Surely this must be some failure on my part.   Anyway, I hope writing that all out was of some therapeutic value, because it certainly isn't adding much to the discussion substantively.

As for what happened in 1910, I think we are better off focusing on what you, Jeff Brauer, recently wrote:

"We generally agree that in June 1910, CBM carefully considered whether a golf course would fit on their property.  I agree he probably saw the 13th as a gem location for his favorite short hole, and I have always figured that he studied the property enough to know that they needed an 11/7 split of holes across Ardmore, based on space available.  I figure he knew there were 4 hole corridors south of Ardmore - two each side of the creek.  He probably did quick length studies to see how those 11 or so holes might fit.  I believe they discussed the necessity of the Dallas property that day, and it took all of July and August to finish that land deal, in secret, of course."

While I'd go a bit further, I'd say that is a pretty reasonable assessment of the types of things we agree they were doing in 1910.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The devil made me do it
« Reply #34 on: July 06, 2013, 04:02:52 PM »
David,

David, I have somehow managed to be in all the threads, read most of your posts, etc.  Heck, I wasn't even booted from the site, so at least I was mostly civil!  (more than some folks can say.....) I think I took as much time to understand your position as anyone.  Of course, I have no obligation to come at it from the aspect of understanding your posts at all, but I have always tried to, and think I have been fairly even minded about it.

I agree that some of those points above are related to your positions from the original essay, and that is a bit confusing.  But for the most part, they do still hold.  Near the end of that post, I did allow as to my perception that your positions had seemingly moved a bit towards the middle, so you probably missed that part. 

In doing that, your position does become a little more muddled than from your original essay, at least to me.  It feels like you are backtracking somewhat from parts of your essay, but don't want to let go of the main theme, which is CBM had more work put into the routing than Wilson, and perhaps his committee.  So, yes, you must have failed me somewhere!

We have agreed in general that CBM put more thought into it than Barker and was of such character that he wouldn't have given his opinion lightly and without conviction.  And I agree he probably couldn't look much at the land without some thought as to golf holes.  As you have said, you would go further than I would in characterizing what CBM did in this period, as I simply don't think he ever got to the hard work of finishing a routing, rather than seeing golf holes as he looked at the brook, quarry, etc.  Nor do I see any proof that he worked with Francis and Lloyd in this period.  I just think its more than possible, more than likely, that they got the land sewed up at Xmas 1910, took a small break, waited for the topos, and got after it hard in the spring.

Yes, I guess there is some therapy value in this thread!  That said, compiling the opposition views in once concise place may have some value for those who haven't followed along closely as I have.  I do believe for your theory to be taken seriously, most or all of those data points should fit easily into a concise explanation.

Given human nature, I doubt I will ever see any more of a mea culpa from Mike C that they really didn't know about the Wilson trip timing until you brought it up, and I doubt you would ever say that maybe, just maybe, that routing took place in the 1911 time frame. 
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

David Harshbarger

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Re: The devil made me do it
« Reply #35 on: July 06, 2013, 04:31:01 PM »
Thank you, thank you, thank you!

I have long known of the titanic struggle that ran through a bazillion posts on the old Merion thread, but was exhausted well before I could figure out what the central tenant of the thread was about.

But now, distilled in a few posts, it is clear:  MacDonald and Whigham did the layout at Merion, and Wilson executed it.  Seems like a reasonable argument. Wilson went on to a few more successes, Whigham I have no idea of, and MacDonald delivered some high profile gigs later on.  Raynor mass-produced the MacDonald greatest hits, and Banks helped out with construction until picking up the mantle on Seth's death.  The great depression showed up and the party ended.

Some of that I filled in from memory, but at least I got the gist.  Now back to threads that don't leave a trail of dead.
The trouble with modern equipment and distance—and I don't see anyone pointing this out—is that it robs from the player's experience. - Mickey Wright

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The devil made me do it
« Reply #36 on: July 06, 2013, 05:10:15 PM »
David Harschbarger,

One has be very careful of the words used around here, but I think you got the gist of it.  

The only change I'd make is to point out that, while the exact contributions of everyone involved remain unclear, Wilson/Merion also seem to have been involved in coming up with the plan which was ultimately approved by CBM and Whigham, then executed by Wilson.

As for the accomplishments of the various parties, CBM was in the process of revolutionizing golf course design in America, and Merion was very much part of that revolution.   I'd argue that Whigham was right there with him. Early accounts suggest that he was extensively involved in the creations of at least NGLA, Piping Rock, and Sleepy Hollow, and I think Merion.   He had also been involved in creating some of the early courses in Chicago with and without CBM, and authored a series of articles on golf course architecture with CBM, and he wrote an incredible article the design and creation of NGLA and on golf course architecture in general.  He was also two time Amateur Champion and from a famous golfing family at Prestwick.  He was overshadowed by and gave all the credit to CBM, but he was definitely there too.

As for Wilson's accomplishments, he was a long time leader in agronomic issues, and reportedly was the mastermind behind the changes at Merion East through the mid 1920's.  He also reportedly designed Seaview  and Merion West, and was one of those responsible for Cobb's Creek, and he made some changes at Philmont, and did some other work around Philadelelphia.  

I know it is a sensitive topic to some and I am no expert on the other of Wilson's courses, but I have played Merion West and Cobb's Creek and read quite a lot about his efforts at Seaview.  When we look at Wilson's later efforts, it reminds me of the old Sesame Street song and game, One of These Things is Not Like the Other.  Cobb's and Merion West are both solid courses, but they seem to me to lack the design sophistication of the East Course, even though it seems clear to me that Wilson was trying to do follow the pattern he learned at Merion East.  Merion East was and is World Class, as were many of CBM's other efforts.  
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The devil made me do it
« Reply #37 on: July 06, 2013, 06:52:25 PM »
Jeff,

Regarding your supposed past civility, like with so many of the facts at issue you seem to have forgotten a lot.   I have not.   And you can keep telling yourself how you have tried to understand both sides but many of your posts, including as your last few, tell a different story.  I never called anyone involved a liar, and I never "presumed" half the stuff you say I presumed, and much of what you list above is not and has never been my position.  You either misunderstand or you are just making things up.

If you actually want to compare Wilson's level of involvement to CBM's, I would welcome such a comparison. But if we are going to do a comparison, then we need both sides.   What specific "work" did Wilson put into the routing? Where is the evidence that Wilson had anything to do with the routing?

You agree that CBM "probably couldn't look much at the land without some thought as to golf holes."  We are in agreement.  Yet you continue to insist we fight about 1910 even though we have nothing to fight about.  And for the umpteenth time you falsely claim I am arguing there was a finished detailed plan in 1910, even though I have  repeatedly agreed that they did not have a finished and detailed routing until later.  Why do you keep misrepresenting me on this issue? You seem to want to fight about nothing.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The devil made me do it
« Reply #38 on: July 06, 2013, 07:07:10 PM »
Thank you, thank you, thank you!

I have long known of the titanic struggle that ran through a bazillion posts on the old Merion thread, but was exhausted well before I could figure out what the central tenant of the thread was about.

But now, distilled in a few posts, it is clear:  MacDonald and Whigham did the layout at Merion, and Wilson executed it.  Seems like a reasonable argument. Wilson went on to a few more successes, Whigham I have no idea of, and MacDonald delivered some high profile gigs later on.  Raynor mass-produced the MacDonald greatest hits, and Banks helped out with construction until picking up the mantle on Seth's death.  The great depression showed up and the party ended.

Some of that I filled in from memory, but at least I got the gist.  Now back to threads that don't leave a trail of dead.

David H,
You have stated David M's position well.  However, many of us respectfully disagree with his conclusions.

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The devil made me do it
« Reply #39 on: July 06, 2013, 07:29:51 PM »
Respectfully disagree?  Now that is a laugh.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The devil made me do it
« Reply #40 on: July 06, 2013, 07:32:09 PM »
Glad you enjoyed it.

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The devil made me do it
« Reply #41 on: July 06, 2013, 08:40:43 PM »
Thanks, I did.  I also enjoy how you always disagree with everything I write, but then you never bother to actually identify your points of disagreement or offer anything of substance to back up your disagreement.   It seems like you are just here to root root root for the home-team, and I find that funny.  

For example, in response to a particular paragraph above, you noted your disagreement and asked that I provide you with the sources.  I provided you with the information, yet neither you nor Rich Goodale had the courtesy to answer my questions about with what you had disagreed.  

Here again is the paragraph . . . .

The various records leave no doubt that Macdonald and Whigham were not just brought in to approve some plan Wilson had come up with on his own.  They had been involved in the actual planning from the very beginning.  Merion purchased the property based "largely" on Macdonald's and Whigham's "opinions as to what could be done with the land." They continued to advise Merion thereafter and "their advice and suggestions as to the the layout of the East Course was of the greatest help and value."  And they determined the final plan after again going over the land and  "various plans" in April 1911.  So it was by no means solely a Wilson/Merion plan they approved.  

So far as I can tell, all the substantive information in this paragraph comes straight from Merion's records, including Alan Wilson's letter.   I set out the particular sentences in my post a few above.  Yet you "disagreed" with the paragraph?  I don't get it?

Surely you can tell us, with what do you disagree?    

Do you disagree with Lesley's and the Board's  statements about how their decision to purchase the land based largely on Macdonald's and Whigham's opinions "as to what could be done with the property.?"

Do you disagree with Alan Wilson's description of what happened at NGLA, where he wrote that CBM and HJW "had our Committee as their guests at the National and their advice and suggestions as to the lay-out of the East Course were of the greatest help and value?"

Do you disagree with Lesley's April 1911 report, where he wrote, "On April 6th Mr. Macdonald and Mr. Whigham came over and spent the day on the ground, and after looking over the various plans, and the ground itself, decided that if we would lay it out according to the plan they approved, which is submitted here-with, that it would result not only in a first class course, but that the last seven holes would be equal to any inland course in the world?"  

Do you disagree that the above shows that there was more to CBM's and HJW's involvement than just approving some plan that Wilson had come up with on his own.

Why don't you believe Merion's own records on these issues?   Were the Men of Merion lying about this stuff?  
« Last Edit: July 06, 2013, 08:44:26 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: The devil made me do it
« Reply #42 on: July 06, 2013, 09:47:56 PM »
Well David, then I guess we are down to mainly disagreeing just how far along a preliminary routing might have been by November 1910, and whether any such land analysis or chicken scratches (if any existed, other than Barkers) qualify as a routing.  But, we don't really have any records to show exactly what was happening in that period.  All is speculation, as well founded as we may think they are, and could be off. 

Then, we disagree on the timing of the land swap.  From the only recollection specifically addressing the routing process (Francis) it seems clear that it was the committee (formed Jan 1911) spent "many hours."  No specifics on how involved Wilson was, and we agree.  No mention of CBM either, which I find odd.

It is also strongly implied/stated that the last five holes, which would have been subject of the land swap (I think we all agree) were the last ones routed, making it pretty hard to conceive of the land swap being in place way back before Nov 1910.  Also, there is that quarry blasting happening soon after, which you clearly don't view as important in the big scheme of things, which I find odd, too.

But, I am lapsing into rehash mode.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Bill Brightly

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Re: The devil made me do it
« Reply #43 on: July 06, 2013, 09:48:11 PM »


As for Wilson's accomplishments, he was a long time leader in agronomic issues, and reportedly was the mastermind behind the changes at Merion East through the mid 1920's.  He also reportedly designed Seaview  and Merion West, and was one of those responsible for Cobb's Creek, and he made some changes at Philmont, and did some other work around Philadelelphia.  

I know it is a sensitive topic to some and I am no expert on the other of Wilson's courses, but I have played Merion West and Cobb's Creek and read quite a lot about his efforts at Seaview.  When we look at Wilson's later efforts, it reminds me of the old Sesame Street song and game, One of These Things is Not Like the Other.  Cobb's and Merion West are both solid courses, but they seem to me to lack the design sophistication of the East Course, even though it seems clear to me that Wilson was trying to do follow the pattern he learned at Merion East.  Merion East was and is World Class, as were many of CBM's other efforts.  


I think this is an excellent argument. How could Wilson come up with such a superb routing, presumably his best ever, on his very first attempt? Of course Wilson and Merion properly thanked CBM for the help. While some criticize Raynor for "forcing templates on the land," that is never said about CBM. He excelled at finding his holes on the land.  It does not sound like a slight of Wilson to say that he relied upon the best American router at the time.

Dan Herrmann

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Re: The devil made me do it
« Reply #44 on: July 06, 2013, 10:00:36 PM »
Bill  -  Did Fownes have help at Oakmont, his first routing?

DMoriarty

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Re: The devil made me do it
« Reply #45 on: July 07, 2013, 03:36:56 AM »
Bill  -  Did Fownes have help at Oakmont, his first routing?

I have no idea whether Fownes (which one?) had help routing Oakmont, but either way I don't think the comparison is apt.

Did Fownes go on to design a handful of solid courses all of which paled in comparison to Oakmont?  If so, then that might get more to the point of Bill's comments.  

Also, unlike with Fownes, we already know that Merion had plenty of help from Macdonald and Whigham from before Merion purchased the property based largely on CBM/HJW's opinions as to what could be done with the land, and until Merion determined to lay the course out on the ground according to the plan CBM/HJW had chosen and approved.

Given what we know about Macdonald's and Whigham's involvement, the very idea that Wilson might have come up with the plan all on his own is downright ridiculous.  In fact a more honest inquiry might be to try to figure out how much Wilson might have helped Macdonald and Whigham, and not the other way around.
=========================================================

What exactly did Hugh Wilson contribute to the routing planning, anyway?  

Anyone ever read anything indicating he contributed anything at all to the routing? Any stories or legends or theories about why he happened to include a Redan, an Alps, a Road Hole, a short, an attempt at an Eden green, a double plateau green, a 220 yard par three with a large swale just before the green, another green closely resembling one at Sleepy Hollow, another green with a distinctive hog's back, a par four utilizing a bottlenecked driving area, a long hole with a large center bunker complex positioned just as were CBM's hell bunkers, holes measuring about what CBM had recommended, etc?  

How silly this whole thing is.   Who do you guys think you are kidding, anyway?
« Last Edit: July 07, 2013, 03:52:01 AM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Patrick_Mucci

Re: The devil made me do it
« Reply #46 on: July 07, 2013, 10:33:28 AM »
David,

The "Merionettes" just don't have the decency and the strength of character to give you and Tom MacWood credit for your research and document discoveries.

I can understand that some may disagree with your conclusions, for a variety of reasons,  that's also to be expected when you debunk a myth or present an alternative scenario to a previously accepted account, but to deny you the bounty of your efforts would seem to be founded in pure jealousy.  How dare someone from your world correct the historical record misleadingly established by their world.

What's really incredible is that you produced the actual quotes from some of the "Merionettes" where they clearly state that they were totally unaware of your discoveries.  Yet, as time went by, they tried to rewrite history by claiming that they and they alone made all of these discoveries.

That's about as intellectually dishonest as you can get.

Taking credit for someone else's work is the lowest of the low.

But I guess that's SOP and how things are done in their world.

DMoriarty

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Re: The devil made me do it
« Reply #47 on: July 07, 2013, 01:05:15 PM »
Jeff Brauer,  

You really seem to be caught up on the issue of the timing of the land swap, and I am not sure sure why.  I think it happened one way and you another, and it is very unlikely that there is any room for agreement.  So what is the point of the endless back and forth on the issue?  Besides, at the end of the day the swap is little more than interesting minutia, and the timing of the swap has little or no bearing on whether or not Macdonald and Whigham were the driving creative forces behind the layout plan at Merion East.

As for the more general the issue of type of things that would have been happening in 1910 and 1911, there is quite a lot about which we agree.   So much so that I am at a loss as to why you are still arguing about the swap and about some of the other details.    AS YOU DESCRIBE CBM's INVOLVEMENT, it is impossible to see him as anything but a major contributor (if not the major contributor) the the design of the course.  Here are just some of the things you have written about CBM's involvement recently, and all it supports the notion that CBM was extremely involved in the planning from June 1910 through spring 1911.  Your quotes are in blue.

1. Barker had come up with an actual rough plan of his proposed layout before CBM had gone over the land, yet you think "CBM put more thought into it than Barker and was of such character that he wouldn't have given his opinion lightly and without conviction."
2.  CBM "probably couldn't look much at the land without some thought as to golf holes."  
3.  "In June 1910, CBM carefully considered whether a golf course would fit on their property.  I agree he probably saw the 13th as a gem location for his favorite short hole, and I have always figured that he studied the property enough to know that they needed an 11/7 split of holes across Ardmore, based on space available.  I figure he knew there were 4 hole corridors south of Ardmore - two each side of the creek.  He probably did quick length studies to see how those 11 or so holes might fit.  I believe they discussed the necessity of the Dallas property that day, and it took all of July and August to finish that land deal, in secret, of course."
4. After CBM's first visit, you don't think anyone did much of any planning until January 1911.
5. "The topos arrived in January, and Wilson, being the kind of guy he was, quickly sent them off to Oakley, and most likely, CBM, at exactly the same time.  . . . CBM had the topos before the NGLA meeting, and if not, probably got a copy at that meeting."
6.  [Upon returning from NGLA, Merion "rearranged the course and laid out five different plans."]  "Of course, it was based on CBM's advice [at NGLA], and it would be hard to argue that he didn't wave his arms, suggest holes, etc. when viewing their first attempts.  So, there is some probable CBM routing input whether you believe he drew holes before that or not.  I always imagined that he dismissed those first attempts pretty abrubtly, but again, who knows."

Obviously you and I still disagree with regarding many minor details, and we disagree with some larger semantic points (for the life of me I can't understand how you can write what I have quoted above yet still deny that CBM was involved in the "routing" process!) but there is much about which we do agree.   And our agreement with so many of these points renders your disagreement about the minutiae rather irrelevant to me.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Joe Bausch

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Re: The devil made me do it
« Reply #48 on: July 07, 2013, 01:05:28 PM »
From "The Lurker"™:
 
From David Moriarty, world class architecture history investigator, and Reply #46:
"How silly this whole thing is. Who do you guys think you are kidding, anyway?"
 
 
With the first sentence---I could not agree more.
 
With the second sentence question---who do "us guys" think we are kidding, anyway?-----I'd say we pretty much think we are kidding the entire world of golf. We Philadelphians, particularly the Philly cabal now known as the "Philadelphia Syndrome Society"™ (Tom MacWood's apt term), have proven themselves to be the best "Legend Makers"™  and "Outsider Minimizers"™ golf and golf architecture have ever known. We've pulled it off for over a century now with Hugh I. Wilson™ and Merion. And despite the fairly recent threat to the Philly Syndrome Society's world-wide official "Kidding Crusade"™, judging from the complete lack of acceptance of the 3Ms "theories" in their decade long campaign on Golfclutzatlas.com to promote Macdonald/Whigam and minimize Wilson and his band of Novices™, it looks like we might pull it off for another century or two.
 
The only relevant issue left at this time is "to determine, choose and approve" whether we of the "Philadelphia Syndrome Society"™ are connected to the secret Masons Society and by "logical inference extension" to the Knights Templar?  
 
In the meantime, here's a humonguously huge, massively major news flash for all Merion architecture history geeks and interested parties. As I mentioned recently, Wayne and I were planning on going back to the attic of MCC for another look-see. That mission has been accomplished and the result is (other than Wayne sustaining a really pernicious splinter wound to his left cheek (it was really hot in that MCC attic so consequently Wayne took his pants off) which is now being treated in Bryn Mawr Hospital's Critical Care Unit), we found a wooden box, next to what looked like the Holy Grail, with a broad blue ribbon tied around the box with the wording "2013 US Open, Merion Golf Club" on it. Through some light "in-the-field" forensic analysis, we believe this box was tied up and has been up there in that MCC attic for over a century without being looked through. Amongst other things (I can get into that later) the box contained all the original routing plans for Merion East. They are all basically stickish routings. The earliest is signed by HH Barker and is dated June, 1910, The next one is dated 6:37.17pm, Oct 13, 1910 and it's signed by Charles Blair Macdonald (Father of American Golf Architecture) and H.J. Whigham (son-in-law of Charles Blair Macdonald  (Father of American Golf Architecture)). The rest are nine in number and they are dated from Jan, 1911 through the end of March 1911. They are all labeled "by The Committee on New Golf Grounds of Merion Cricket Club Golf Association," listing the names Francis (novice), Griscom (novice), Lloyd (novice and financier) and Toulmin (novice), with Hugh I. Wilson (#1 Novice and Chairman of Novice Committee"), listed first, and Richard S. Francis listed again in the far left corners as the "tape, level and measures operator and drawererer." So I suppose after some careful analyses, this amazing find should finally answer any and all questions from anyone and everyone of exactly who did what with the original routing and design of Merion East.
 
The only possible remaining problem I can foresee is they are all identical. I suppose this means that Merion historians, all other interested parties, particularly including "Outsiders"™, will now need to determine and decide if the Merion East original routing project process should be considered to be FIFO or LIFO, or perhaps some combination thereinofafterbeforeorwhateveretcetcetal.
 
So, let the discussions and debates begin anew and again; and for Lord's Sake, this time, let's please try even harder to keep them really irrelevant, redundant, nasty and personal, and above all, let's try to keep them even sillier than the last decade long go-around; but this time, let's please try to keep them under two or even three decades.
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Bryan Izatt

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Re: The devil made me do it
« Reply #49 on: July 07, 2013, 01:11:02 PM »
David,

A minor nit pick on your mantra.

Quote
They had been involved in the actual planning from the very beginning.

When was the "very beginning"?  Were CBM and HJW involved before Barker was solicited for a routing?  The "very beginning" was presumably before Barker's routing.


Back to the original premise of this thread - the GD article was quoting John G. Capers who said that the "semi-obsessive" Wayne Morrison (who is a member of his archives committee) searched ships manifests for the relevant years and found no trace of Wilson.  Perhaps Wayne never mentioned to Capers that he was incented to do that by David's research.  Or, perhaps Capers didn't know that David incented Wayne.  Or, that Wayne relied on David's searching. If Wayne were still a participant here, he might clarify for the denizens of this zoo that David did the ship manifest search first, but he's not.  

Re the "two-inch clipping from a British newspaper", Capers says that Wayne found it.  Capers may have thought that Wayne found it or knew that Wayne was the one who brought it to his attention.  Again, if Wayne was still on here he could clarify, but he's not.

If Wayne knowingly took credit for those two discoveries with Capers, then that is not right (although certainly it is not the lowest of the low).