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Anthony_Nysse

  • Karma: +0/-0
Ron Forse/Pine Tree Golf Club (Update)
« on: July 05, 2013, 09:14:03 AM »
Ron Forse and Lepanto Golf have been at Pine Tree for the last month, restoring our greenside bunkers to what Dick Wilson originally intended. We will complete the fairway bunkers next summer.
  Ron was in charge of the renovation here in 1997 where so much of Wilson’s work was restored and the team from Lepanto was also responsible for the shaping in 1997. We are lucky to have both on board for our summer project and we make the bunkers fairer, more playable and return to Wilson’s style. The renovation of 2005 led for the bunkers to be much deeper and have a much more raised face, making the bunkers very difficult to play out of.
  We are also taking the time to regrass all the tees and approaches to Celebration bermudagrass. Last summer we renovated the fairways to Celebration, so it will be nice to have a consistent look. As the summer continues and the work continues to surpass expectations, I will update with photos. The following are pictures of the new bunkers on #2 and #6 and before/afters of #3 and #4.







« Last Edit: July 27, 2013, 08:05:42 AM by Anthony_Nysse »
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

Andy Treen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ron Forse/Pine Tree Golf Club
« Reply #1 on: July 05, 2013, 09:32:06 AM »
Ron did a wonderful job at Hole-in-the-Wall GC ('58 Dick Wilson) in Naples, FL.

- Andy
First Assistant Professional
Taconic Golf Club

Anthony_Nysse

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ron Forse/Pine Tree Golf Club
« Reply #2 on: July 05, 2013, 09:58:31 AM »
Ron did a wonderful job at Hole-in-the-Wall GC ('58 Dick Wilson) in Naples, FL.

- Andy

He certainly did. He used some of his photos from the 1997 renovation here at HIW. I played it shortly after it was renovated and thought the work we very good!
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

Joe Andriole

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ron Forse/Pine Tree Golf Club
« Reply #3 on: July 05, 2013, 10:12:37 AM »
It's really great to to see this embrace of Dick Wilson's bunkering style - which I find to be both artistic and effective. Must make a trip down to Pine Tree .

Andy Treen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ron Forse/Pine Tree Golf Club
« Reply #4 on: July 05, 2013, 06:29:25 PM »
Anthony,

Dick Wilson is a very interesting character in the world of GCA, both as a man and in his designs.  Having worked as a seasonal assistant at HITW and Doral I saw many similarities in his design.  I know the Blue has had many hands on it since Wilson laid it out in the early 60's, but some things that stand out are the elevated green complexes diagonal to the lines of the play.  The greens are protected by deep bunkering fronting the greens, punishing careless shots. 

I've talked to Ron a few times but... never had the time to ask him more about his thoughts on Wilson.  How have you contributed to Ron's work and how has he contributed to your practices at Pine Tree?

I'm curious to find more Wilson gems; he was prolific in South Florida.  Am I right to think Laurel Valley and Royal Montreal are his marquee northern courses?

- Andy
First Assistant Professional
Taconic Golf Club

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ron Forse/Pine Tree Golf Club
« Reply #5 on: July 05, 2013, 07:58:02 PM »
Andy,

Wilson's Wilmington CC South course is up there as one of Wilson's better course:

http://www.wilmingtoncc.com/club/scripts/section/section.asp?NS=TOUR_SOUTH
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Andy Treen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ron Forse/Pine Tree Golf Club
« Reply #6 on: July 05, 2013, 08:29:51 PM »
Steve,

Now that you mention Delaware... Is Biderman any good?  I have a good friend living in Wilmington.

- Andy
First Assistant Professional
Taconic Golf Club

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Ron Forse/Pine Tree Golf Club
« Reply #7 on: July 05, 2013, 08:36:33 PM »
Anthony,

Now, I'll have to make a trip to Florida to see the work.

Andy Treen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ron Forse/Pine Tree Golf Club
« Reply #8 on: July 05, 2013, 08:50:01 PM »
Mr. Mucci,

You have an opinion regarding all topics GCA...  Are you a Dick Wilson fan?

- Andy
First Assistant Professional
Taconic Golf Club

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Ron Forse/Pine Tree Golf Club
« Reply #9 on: July 06, 2013, 12:34:31 AM »
Mr. Mucci,

You have an opinion regarding all topics GCA...  Are you a Dick Wilson fan?

Very much so, I believe he's underrated


- Andy


Anthony_Nysse

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ron Forse/Pine Tree Golf Club
« Reply #10 on: July 06, 2013, 05:42:00 AM »
Anthony,

Dick Wilson is a very interesting character in the world of GCA, both as a man and in his designs.  Having worked as a seasonal assistant at HITW and Doral I saw many similarities in his design.  I know the Blue has had many hands on it since Wilson laid it out in the early 60's, but some things that stand out are the elevated green complexes diagonal to the lines of the play.  The greens are protected by deep bunkering fronting the greens, punishing careless shots.  

I've talked to Ron a few times but... never had the time to ask him more about his thoughts on Wilson.  How have you contributed to Ron's work and how has he contributed to your practices at Pine Tree?

I'm curious to find more Wilson gems; he was prolific in South Florida.  Am I right to think Laurel Valley and Royal Montreal are his marquee northern courses?

- Andy

Andy,
  I cannot say that I really have contributed to Ron's work, other than the fact that in my time at PT, I felt that there was only 2 architects who the club should consider working with for any restoration processes, with Ron being the #1 choice. Ron did the work here in 1997 and in speaking to members and viewing photos, the work was fantastic. Mr. Mucci may be able to elaborate further as I never personally saw the work. There was little regard for the true Wilson bunker style in the 2005 renovation.
  Ron has embraced the chance to come back to PT and wholeheartedly believes that this work is better that was he expected, better than the 1997 work.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2013, 06:05:00 AM by Anthony_Nysse »
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

Anthony_Nysse

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ron Forse/Pine Tree Golf Club
« Reply #11 on: July 27, 2013, 06:08:33 AM »
We opened a few holes this week that have been completed and growing in for several weeks. Currently, the front 9 is completed along with #14. #15 and #13 are currently being worked on. #13 will be incredible. The work being done by Lepanto and Ron Forse is long overdue and is certainly going to wow those who play here for years to come. Enjoy the renovated pics!

#3


#4


#5
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

Jerry Kluger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ron Forse/Pine Tree Golf Club
« Reply #12 on: July 27, 2013, 07:16:57 AM »
I believe it was at a GCA winter get together at Baltusrol that I first met Ron and he did a presentation concerning a restoration he did in the New Orleans area and I was totally blown away.  His work is great and Pine Tree looks outstanding.  It would certainly give Seminole a run for its money if it had a similar seaside location. Well done.   

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Ron Forse/Pine Tree Golf Club (Update)
« Reply #13 on: July 27, 2013, 08:43:17 AM »
 Ron was in charge of the renovation here in 1997 where so much of Wilson’s work was restored and the team from Lepanto was also responsible for the shaping in 1997. We are lucky to have both on board for our summer project and we make the bunkers fairer, more playable and return to Wilson’s style. The renovation of 2005 led for the bunkers to be much deeper and have a much more raised face, making the bunkers very difficult to play out of.

Anthony:

I did not quite understand this paragraph.  Do you mean that the club restored the bunkers in 1997, changed them in 2005, and are now restoring them again?  Who did the work in 2005, and was the goal unrelated to Dick Wilson's work?

Anthony_Nysse

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ron Forse/Pine Tree Golf Club (Update)
« Reply #14 on: July 27, 2013, 09:23:36 AM »
TD,
  Yes. Ron directed the renovation in 1997 that did a really nice job of returning the bunkering to the look that Wilson had in mind. In 2005, when the tees, approaches, fairways and greens were regrassed, the bunkers were also redone. Bobby Weed was the architect in charge, but I do not know the direction that the club gave him regarding the work. What I do know, and learn more about this summer, is that it was not anything close to Wilson in the look and shapes. The bunkers we are made substantially deeper with bold mounding leading to the greens edge. Wilson's bunkers were not penal, though abundant. Pine Tree's bunkers from 2005-2012 have been penal. A combination of raising the floors and lowering the bunker lips to be nearly level with the putting surface is resulting in bunkers floors that feel 8-12" higher. The entry/low points of the bunkers are also at turf level-no edge for a ball to fall next to.
  I do not know the specifics of the work, but what I do know is the work was very far from what Wilson had intended. We firmly believe that the work being done now is recreating Wilson's look and intention. We are going off plans, aerials and photos from 1962-1965.
  Ron will also be developing a Master plan for us this fall to ensure this type of mess does not happen in the future.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2013, 09:40:58 AM by Anthony_Nysse »
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

Tim Gavrich

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ron Forse/Pine Tree Golf Club (Update)
« Reply #15 on: July 27, 2013, 11:13:45 AM »
Since we're lovin' on Dick Wilson here, let me throw some love toward Callaway Gardens' Mountain View course - the one where the Tour played for a while in the 1990s. Nothing crazy or fancy, just a string of 18 solid holes that reward clear-headed thinking and good shot execution. All you would want in a golf course for a tournament or general play. He outdid RTJ Sr., I think.
Senior Writer, GolfPass

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Ron Forse/Pine Tree Golf Club (Update)
« Reply #16 on: July 27, 2013, 12:18:20 PM »
Tom Doak,

You, more than most on this site, are familiar with how different clubs are governed, and how the mood of the membership, as communicated by the Board can vary.

Pine Tree has an interesting form of governance that has it's pluses and it's minuses.

Every two years there's a new President and new Officers and new Committee Chairman.

It's hard to establish continuity under that system.
Just when a Chairman is getting up to speed, he's an ex-chairman.
On the other hand, it thwarts the acquisition of a long term power base and as such can prevent change.

Since you have this revolving door system, it can disrupt continuity.
And one of the ways that manifests itself is by having a group in power that has no connection to the group in power 6 or 8 years previous.
This in turn promotes a rediscovering of the wheel, with the current Board, who strikes out on their own to modify the golf course based on their ideas, ideas which can be in a vacuum, rather than connected to the ideas from 6 to 8 years ago.

Hence every 6 to 8 years you have "new" concepts and ideas about how the golf course should look and play.

Some of Pine Tree's issues have been deeper than perceived.
Some clubs in Florida have good sub-soil and others don't.
The general geological line of demarcation was the Florida Turnpike.
Generally, Courses West of the FT like Boca Rio and Adios had very poor sub-soil and were barely above the water table.

All too often clubs thought they had "bad" grass, so they decided to regrass, and they felt, as long as they were going to regrass, they might as well do __________.    So architectural projects were borne out of regrassing projects.
And, since the problem wasn't necessarily confined to the grass, but the sub-soil, after a few years clubs figured that they had another grass problem, again, and the cycle repeated itself.  And, because an architect was associated with the failed regrassing, they would bring in a different architect at the next go-round.   And still the underlying problem, the poor sub-soil issue  remained unresolved.

Each club has it's own culture and form of governance and those factors often dictate architectural and agronomic outcomes.

Hope that helps.


Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ron Forse/Pine Tree Golf Club (Update)
« Reply #17 on: July 27, 2013, 12:29:07 PM »
Another DWilson course that Forse/Nagle have worked on is Bedens Brook in NJ.  I had the pleasure of playing it earlier this summer:

http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/albums/BedensBrook/
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Jared Kalina

Re: Ron Forse/Pine Tree Golf Club
« Reply #18 on: July 27, 2013, 01:04:39 PM »
Andy,

Wilson's Wilmington CC South course is up there as one of Wilson's better course:

http://www.wilmingtoncc.com/club/scripts/section/section.asp?NS=TOUR_SOUTH

A small correction, but it's actually the NORTH course at Wilmington CC that is the Dick Wilson design.  From my time there as the golf course superintendent, I can tell you it still is the original Wilson greens and bunkering.  It is scheduled for a renovation from Keith Foster some time in the next few years.  Hope I'm able to make the trip back and see what it becomes. I like Keith's work a lot.

The South Course is a Robert Trent Jones- renovated by Foster in 2007-08

Jared Kalina

Re: Ron Forse/Pine Tree Golf Club
« Reply #19 on: July 27, 2013, 01:06:49 PM »
Steve,

Now that you mention Delaware... Is Biderman any good?  I have a good friend living in Wilmington.

- Andy

Not to steer this discussion another way, but to answer your question Andy, Biderman is very good.  Always in wonderful shape.  If I have any complaints, it's that the greens are kept too fast for the small, undulated greens that Wilson built there.  But a great club with a small, quiet, easy-going membership.  Highly recommend if possible.

Anthony_Nysse

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ron Forse/Pine Tree Golf Club (Update)
« Reply #20 on: September 21, 2013, 12:19:32 PM »
We are about a week away from opening the back 9. We have let it mature over the last 4-6 weeks in preparation for this winter. Ron and Lepanto knocked it out of the park. Please enjoy!

#13


#10




#1


#3
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

Jerry Kluger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ron Forse/Pine Tree Golf Club (Update)
« Reply #21 on: September 21, 2013, 08:04:36 PM »
Looks great.  I better practice my long bunker shots before I attempt to play it. 

Dan Byrnes

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ron Forse/Pine Tree Golf Club (Update)
« Reply #22 on: September 21, 2013, 08:18:39 PM »
Looks great.  Nice to see the results.

Dan

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Ron Forse/Pine Tree Golf Club (Update)
« Reply #23 on: September 21, 2013, 08:22:52 PM »


Looks great.  I better practice my long bunker shots before I attempt to play it. 

Jerry,

Pine Tree either improves your bunker and long iron play or increases your handicap


Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ron Forse/Pine Tree Golf Club (Update)
« Reply #24 on: September 22, 2013, 10:19:26 AM »
I became a Dick Wilson fan when I played the Doral Blue in 1975.  These photos of the current Pine Tree bunkers and greens look a whole lot like Doral in 1975.   It's a shame they ever messed with that course. 

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