New courses being built in WI?

[Daryl David]

Looking at the area of Lake Arrowhead, they sure covered up what sand dunes we were able to leave on the original course (Pines was the one I worked on....I believe Killian went back after I left to do the second one, which I haven't seen)

I think it will work.  Chicagoans drive north for weekends.  I actually think MSP folks do to, but with this property, they could be induced to go east for at least a few golf trips a year.  I know Giants Ridge and Fortune Bay actually still get bus loads of golf groups.  I once asked how full the tee sheets were and they told me, just two bookings....but each one was a bus of 64 guys.  Very high participation rates up there.

If had the water views some suggest and the sand dunes unadulterated, it would work, IMHO.  Not that I need to tell Keiser anything......

BTW, I always allowed four hours from Palatine, IL to the site.  In the intervening 30 years, the highways may have widened in spots, but there is also more traffic, so it is still at least 4 hours from the NW suburbs.

When I lived in the Twin Cities I knew of lots of buddy golf trips to Arrowhead. Went several times myself and included rounds at at Sentry World in Stevens Point.  There will be no problem getting bus loads from that part of the country.

[Ryan Heiman]

If the water park capital of the world is in WI Dells, then this course(s) will be just fine.  MSP folk will drive there for sure.  Very central in the state from all angles and great terrain to work with.  We took a vacation to the area a few years back and there are so many cool dunes areas currently used for ATV trails.  If that is some of the land Keiser is looking into, it will be stunning.  Similar to Streamsong, just more trees.  60ft dunes are scattered all around there.  I actually commented at the time how cool the terrain would be for a golf course.  Much more dramatic than Lake arrowhead.  I'll be in Rome next weekend for a family get together, I'll have to snoop around.

[Don_Mahaffey]

Remember when Kiser was lauded for picking new and/or outside of the box designers?

Even revolutionary can become formulaic.  

Are you sure that those lauding him knew what they were talking about?
How do you know that he wasn't simply choosing the designers that best fit his model?

I think sometimes we try and dig too deep into what makes people successful. Maybe Kaiser just figured out earlier then most in the golf business that it is more about the product then the name.

The question is.... will there be a market of golfers?  There are 1000s of areas of sandy barrens in this country.  But, are there golfers near or willing to travel to them?  Sand Hills is special because of the vast alluring empty spaces to 'get away'.  But, sandy pine barrens are in many places throughout the country, and not even as remote as Hooker Co and Mullen, etc.  But, is Adams Co WI appealing and unique enough to be a destination?  Camelot, Arrowhead, Castle Rock and that area are pretty saturated with cabin retreats already.  As Jeff was saying, they were on that area 30 years ago with their project at Lake Arrowhead.  Can the area support yet another project with enough draw from TCs and Chi-Milw-Madtown and Dells goers? 

RJ, while I would never, ever discount the revenue side of the equation, based on what I've heard from someone who grew up in that exact area, a world class golf course could be built and maintained for much less then the norm because of the site, soil, water, and climate. We always spend time discussing and wondering how these out of the way places make it financially, but we hardly ever factor in the financial benefits of building a golf course on a great site where knowledge is more important then construction resources, where you have perfect soil for golf, abundant water and cheap energy. A balance sheet has two side and some of these great sites makes more sense then you might think.

[David Schofield]

If the site is, in fact, in Rome Township in Adams County, I am guessing the site is south and west of the current Lake Arrowhead Golf Club along STH 13.  According to WisDNR mapping this area has some interested topography (all sorts of ridges and swales ranging from elevation 980 to 1080).  According to Addams County mapping this area is owned by a single owner (Plum Creek Timberlands).

I once took a 2-day Amtrak ride to get to Bandon.  I'd much prefer a 2-hour drive...    

[PCCraig]

If the site is, in fact, in Rome Township in Adams County, I am guessing the site is south and west of the current Lake Arrowhead Golf Club along STH 13.  According to WisDNR mapping this area has some interested topography (all sorts of ridges and swales ranging from elevation 980 to 1080).  According to Addams County mapping this area is owned by a single owner (Plum Creek Timberlands).

I once took a 2-day Amtrak ride to get to Bandon.  I'd much prefer a 2-hour drive...    

Interesting. I think you found the plot of land.

Thanks to Google Street View the area does certainly remind me of the North Carolina sandhills. I don't see any dunes, however.

[PCCraig]

A better look at where the land might be:

[Jud_T]

I think sometimes we try and dig too deep into what makes people successful. Maybe Kaiser just figured out earlier then most in the golf business that it is more about the product then the name.
 

Bingo.  Some still apparently need to get this drilled into their skulls...

[Morgan Clawson]

As a Minneapolitan this is great news and I couldn't be more thrilled. 

Depending on how it's developed I think this would pull in a different crowd than Kohler. My impression is that Kohler has evolved into an expensive business golf and couples golf/spa destination that draws mostly from Chicago.

If they stick to a buddy trip model I think they'll do quite well.

Day trips from the larger metros might be uncommon, but I bet they'd do well with 1 night/2 round and 2 night/3 round packages.

There are a lot of guys in Minneapolis with friends in Milwaukee, Chicago and Madison. This seems like a natural meeting place from a geographic standpoint.

Question - How's Erin Hills doing?  What types of golfers are visiting there? That might be the most similar type of venue.

[William_G]

Phil,

I doubt day-trippers are the ultimate target market.  It's a perfect location for a weekend resort within reach of millions of people.  How many golfers are within a 4 hour drive of this location?  How many Doak 8 public courses (or private for that matter) built on sand are within the same radius?  You've got Bandon, Bandon East (Cabot complex), and now perhaps Bandon Midwest.  Top tier links golf within relatively easy reach of anyone in North America.  I think this website should take full credit....

Jud: It's a six-month season -- and that includes notoriously fickle May and October. It could maybe open in April, but I've driven through legitimate snowstorms in central Wisconsin in April. And October can be either heaven on earth or awful golf weather up there.

Bandon is year round golf which most everything at sea level is on the west coast, eg Pebble, CP, Olympic, CB etc.... (except for the occasional storm)

It is difficult to understand how greatness in golf can only be available for 1/2 the year, but that is another topic, LOL.

[Morgan Clawson]

If the site is, in fact, in Rome Township in Adams County, I am guessing the site is south and west of the current Lake Arrowhead Golf Club along STH 13.  According to WisDNR mapping this area has some interested topography (all sorts of ridges and swales ranging from elevation 980 to 1080).  According to Addams County mapping this area is owned by a single owner (Plum Creek Timberlands).

I once took a 2-day Amtrak ride to get to Bandon.  I'd much prefer a 2-hour drive...   

There's 2 golf courses already there.  It looks like there is a sand mine just south of one course. Surprising that both courses were part of housing developments. I wouldn't expect that in a little town.

[Phil McDade]

It is difficult to understand how greatness in golf can only be available for 1/2 the year, but that is another topic, LOL.

Bill:

There are plenty of great golf courses with 6-month seasons -- assuming Crystal Downs and Oakmont, to name two (with similar 6-month seasons) fit your definition of greatness.

But it's easier to sustain as a member's course. A resort dedicated solely to golf, with nothing nearby of much interest, open for only six months? It will be a challenge, no matter how good the course.

[Howard Riefs]

It is difficult to understand how greatness in golf can only be available for 1/2 the year, but that is another topic, LOL.

Bill:

There are plenty of great golf courses with 6-month seasons -- assuming Crystal Downs and Oakmont, to name two (with similar 6-month seasons) fit your definition of greatness.

But it's easier to sustain as a member's course. A resort dedicated solely to golf, with nothing nearby of much interest, open for only six months? It will be a challenge, no matter how good the course.

Sounds just like Cabot, which is even more remote.  Keiser is confident enough in the model to be building the second course.

[JC Jones]

I think sometimes we try and dig too deep into what makes people successful. Maybe Kaiser just figured out earlier then most in the golf business that it is more about the product then the name.
 

Bingo.  Some still apparently need to get this drilled into their skulls...

Until the name is part of the marketing....

[Phil McDade]

If the site is, in fact, in Rome Township in Adams County, I am guessing the site is south and west of the current Lake Arrowhead Golf Club along STH 13.  According to WisDNR mapping this area has some interested topography (all sorts of ridges and swales ranging from elevation 980 to 1080).  According to Addams County mapping this area is owned by a single owner (Plum Creek Timberlands).

I once took a 2-day Amtrak ride to get to Bandon.  I'd much prefer a 2-hour drive...   

There's 2 golf courses already there.  It looks like there is a sand mine just south of one course. Surprising that both courses were part of housing developments. I wouldn't expect that in a little town.

Morgan:

Lake Arrowhead exists as a kind of semi-retirement, semi-weekend condo, semi-second-home resort with two nice golf courses. It's open for public play to anyone, and at a high-season (mid-May to Labor Day) rate of $52 walking/$68 cart, it still falls within the range of what I might call the upper-middle-class/not a special occasion golfing experience in the state. (The September rate, usually a wonderful time for golf around here, is terrific value at $26/42.)

Howard:

Mr. Keiser's built a successful resort next to  the Pacific Ocean, and is attempting the same at Cabot next to the Atlantic Ocean -- both near some of the most stunning scenery in North American (the Oregon coast, Prince Edward Island).

Rome, WI, is....um.....not that.

[William_G]

It is difficult to understand how greatness in golf can only be available for 1/2 the year, but that is another topic, LOL.

Bill:

There are plenty of great golf courses with 6-month seasons -- assuming Crystal Downs and Oakmont, to name two (with similar 6-month seasons) fit your definition of greatness.

But it's easier to sustain as a member's course. A resort dedicated solely to golf, with nothing nearby of much interest, open for only six months? It will be a challenge, no matter how good the course.

gotcha Phil

so then, if you have limited golf season, a great course may be best sustained if it is a private endeavor, like most of the limited season "great ones"

[Charlie_Bell]

Phil,

But for someone from Chicago or Minneapolis, having a top-of-the-line "buddy resort" course within a few hours drive would be great.

I say this as someone who has played Cabot each of the last two summers.  From Connecticut my family and I drive 14 hours to the south shore of Nova Scotia, where my in-laws have a summer cottage.  Then I drive (this year, with my non-golfer wife and daughter) another 4 hours or so each way to play Cabot.  Why?  Because it's the best public golf experience I can buy.

[Jud_T]

Phil,

Kohler ain't exactly cheap, it's a pretty long day trip for most and only 1 course is on the lake.  River frontage is more than enough for me if the course(s) are good enough.

[RJ_Daley]

I wonder if another factor in the formula of investing in a project like Bandon, Cabot, Barneygoogles, or Sand Hills is that there needs to be a passionate and committed person there at all times.  We see that in Ben and all he did to commit to the entire lifestyle of embracing Invernes.  There is Chris Johnson at Dismal, who literally lives there the entire season and beyond with only a few home days.  I don't know if Greg Ramsey was on site after the project principal partners changed.  But, no doubts of his commitment and passion then and now at the new project.  Bandon had on-site key people who adopted the town as home base. 

I think that a great course on that land, as any number of architects could do, could work.  But honestly, I don't think so at Kohler level prices. 

Look at Lawsonia.  It is a two course complex, resort in nature, in a very refined or long established resort community on Green Lake, with a conference center, and a national over seer and theme in the American Baptist Assembly.  The place is long on history, and has a classic and more modern resort style course.  But, look at their green fees.  They aren't in the ball park of what Bandon or Kohler charge.  If there is any component of this project plan in Adams county to count on some local play, I would be skeptical that there would be local support (like a 75mile radius defined local) that would pay more than $75 to play even a world beater course.  Just my opinion...  I could be very wrong.  But, I know one thing, I'd never have the guts to put up  many millions to create another course up there.  I might take a chance on a pre-sold membership subscrition private club of a golf only with minimal F&B, where the subscriptions are very affordable, and the cost of the golf course construction allowed the modest fees.   

[Tom_Doak]

I wonder if another factor in the formula of investing in a project like Bandon, Cabot, Barneygoogles, or Sand Hills is that there needs to be a passionate and committed person there at all times.  We see that in Ben and all he did to commit to the entire lifestyle of embracing Invernes.  There is Chris Johnson at Dismal, who literally lives there the entire season and beyond with only a few home days.  I don't know if Greg Ramsey was on site after the project principal partners changed. 

RJ:  There was somebody at Barnbougle every day making sure things went as they should, but it was Richard Sattler, not Greg.  Greg was not around too much when we built the course, and he certainly wasn't running the show.

I think that a great course on that land, as any number of architects could do, could work.  But honestly, I don't think so at Kohler level prices. 

Look at Lawsonia.  It is a two course complex, resort in nature, in a very refined or long established resort community on Green Lake, with a conference center, and a national over seer and theme in the American Baptist Assembly.  The place is long on history, and has a classic and more modern resort style course.  But, look at their green fees.  They aren't in the ball park of what Bandon or Kohler charge.  If there is any component of this project plan in Adams county to count on some local play, I would be skeptical that there would be local support (like a 75mile radius defined local) that would pay more than $75 to play even a world beater course.  Just my opinion...  I could be very wrong.  But, I know one thing, I'd never have the guts to put up  many millions to create another course up there.  I might take a chance on a pre-sold membership subscrition private club of a golf only with minimal F&B, where the subscriptions are very affordable, and the cost of the golf course construction allowed the modest fees.   

Lawsonia's a nice place, but Lawsonia is not the model for this.  And you don't have to tell Mr. Keiser that a project away from the ocean probably won't be able to charge the same prices, unless it blows people's minds.  That's why he's being cautious with this one.  He's not going to build three or four courses at once, he'll wait to see how the first one does.

But, everyone's expectations seem pretty high now.  If a project had to be as successful as Bandon Dunes to be worth doing, then I'd better find another line of work, because I probably won't see that again in my lifetime.  Just remember, Mike's goals for Bandon Dunes were nowhere near as high as what it's become, but he thought it was worth doing anyway.

And what if one of us builds a course comparable to Pine Valley out there in the middle of Wisconsin?  And then what if one of us builds something comparable to Sand Hills, or St. Andrews, or Shinnecock, just over the next ridge?  You guys don't think that would be worth doing?  That will be the standard, whoever winds up with the job.

[RJ_Daley]

TD, does Streamsong have comparable characteristics and positioning in a market niche sort of way?  I almost might be willing to bet that the actual terrain and sand nature of the soils is better in that Adams Co area. 

I'd also have to make the bold statement that if it is down to needing locals to play to augment a regional national public golf seeker market, 3/4 of the retail golfers in that neck of the woods, never heard of Pine Valley.   

Yes, I think it is worth doing something great, particularly if it adds a measure of building on the concept that to be great doesn't require a boatload of cash the likes of what Whistling Straits and other very costly projects spent, which was then an automatic placement into a golf market category to which, I for one, don't relate...nor do many folk in that general area of WI, if I were to generalize. 

[Phil McDade]

Tom:

Sure, I think Wisconsin's version of Pine Valley is worth doing. But whether it's "worth doing," vs. whether it can successful, is the skeptic's argument that I think RJ and I are making.

That's probably a bit afield for a website aimed at focusing on architecture, and not the financial risk/success of golf course projects. But the two sort of go hand-in-hand, no? Maybe it's the (former) journalist in me, but I have a hard time accepting the notion that the "best" of anything can be successful no matter any other considerations.

And at least for me, one of the reasons for the skepticism is that Wisconsin has seen quite a bit of this. If Mr. Keiser plans to go slowly, and build out only one course initially, how does that differ -- for the consumer -- from Erin Hills (building more and more -- and quite nice -- accommodations by the day, and with the added cache of being a US Open course, something the Rome WI project presumably will lack)? You can argue -- well, the Rome WI course will be superior to Erin Hills (and it may very well be), but that argument will hold sway with a very small slice of the golfing public (disproportionately represented here at GCA... )

Lawsonia may not be the model, either, but it will certainly be the competition -- an architecturally significant course in rural Wisconsin. And even Lawsonia appeals to a fairly narrow slice of the Wisconsin golfing public -- the folks I'd like to hang out with (and have), but not most of the folks you find on Madison's or Milwaukee's muni's.

Add in the 20+ years of success that Kohler has had with his four courses, and I just wonder....

Perhaps there's an argument that -- like Apple -- Mr. Keiser is creating demand for a product none of us really realized we wanted until it was available (and one can argue -- I would -- that Kohler has spent the past 20 years doing that here with his courses). The Bandon courses are selling, essentially, the top-level UK links experience (with better showers ) on home soil. Sand Hills and Dismal seem to be selling the equivalent of golf on Mars -- a place so remote, and so good and unique, you have to experience it once (or perhaps more, if that's your thing). Cabot -- looks great, I just don't know if I'll ever get there in my lifetime, when getting to Scotland seems a lot easier.

Rome, WI? I'm willing to suspend some of my skepticism....but not all of it.

(RJ -- Wisconsin has 72 counties; only 13 have a lower per capita income than Adams County. Local use of the course I'd, charitably, suspect to be nominal.)

[RJ_Daley]

I wonder if there isn't some angle to shoot regarding the financial structure, considering the land may be a logged out tract.  Is there some sort of property tax incentive related to depletion or some tax or finance treatment that would encourage an investor to take a leap at this?  I have no idea.  If the land can be obtained cheap, and the abundance of irrigation water is good, and the sand is in a state of topography and quality that construction is very economical along with turf growing, then what the heck... 

[Phil McDade]

RJ:

I'm sure the land is coming cheap -- Plum Creek is sitting on a bunch of second- and third-growth timber land that none of the mills are buying anymore (well, that's a bit of an exaggeration, but the troubles of the paper industry in Wisconsin are if anything under-stated -- see my reply #38). That may be enough, tax or no tax incentive program. It is a totally blank canvas up there, and I can't imagine the permitting process will be all that challenging, especially if they avoid those 60-foot dunes on the banks of the Wisconsin River.

[William_G]

But, everyone's expectations seem pretty high now.  If a project had to be as successful as Bandon Dunes to be worth doing, then I'd better find another line of work, because I probably won't see that again in my lifetime.  Just remember, Mike's goals for Bandon Dunes were nowhere near as high as what it's become, but he thought it was worth doing anyway.

And what if one of us builds a course comparable to Pine Valley out there in the middle of Wisconsin?  And then what if one of us builds something comparable to Sand Hills, or St. Andrews, or Shinnecock, just over the next ridge?  You guys don't think that would be worth doing?  That will be the standard, whoever winds up with the job.

Thanks Tom,

FWIW, TOC is a year round golf course, the others mentioned that are great are limited in their golf season.

and THANK YOU MIKE KEISER

[Morgan Clawson]

Couple of other observations -

This location has great freeway access.

In terms of getting golfers from outside the area, don't forget the large number of folks who will practically drive right by this course on their way to their cabins.