New courses being built in WI?

[PCCraig]

Rome, WI, is....um.....not that.

Neither is Pinehurst, Phil.

[Jud_T]

I'm more worried for Kohler and Erin Hills than I am for Keiser's effort, sight unseen.  Fortunately, none of them have to worry about where their next meal is coming from... Phil, just picture this scenario:  One of the GCA's mentioned builds a phenomenal course on sand in a climate that will support cool weather grasses and real F&F links conditions.  It gets rave reviews.  It is priced at or below Whistling Straights and Erin Hills.  It has some lake or river views.  Perhaps they even allow carts ( ).  Mid to high handicappers who play it find it more fun and forgiving than either of the above tournament venues.  It sneaks up the rankings lists.  They build out nice, but not overly expensive lodging.  They make their own brats.    They hire another interesting GCA for a second course.  Sound familiar?

[Morgan Clawson]

I'm more worried for Kohler and Erin Hills than I am for Keiser's effort, sight unseen.  Fortunately, none of them have to worry about where their next meal is coming from... Phil, just picture this scenario:  One of the GCA's mentioned builds a phenomenal course on sand in a climate that will support cool weather grasses and real F&F links conditions.  It gets rave reviews.  It is priced at or below Whistling Straights and Erin Hills.  It has some lake or river views.  Perhaps they even allow carts ( ).  Mid to high handicappers who play it find it more fun and forgiving than either of the above tournament venues.  It sneaks up the rankings lists.  They build out nice, but not overly expensive lodging.  They make their own brats.    They hire another interesting GCA for a second course.  Sound familiar?

+1...And they have a great fish fry!

[Jeff_Brauer]

Well, Kohler and EH will both have major championships on their resumes, and Rome, WI will never host one of those.....

That said, I still say it will work, and all three will stay in business, perhaps at an altered rate structure as the market separates out what is the favorite.

In 30 plus years in this biz, I have found that when times are really tough, golfers don't quit, but they get cheap.  Bandon Dunes may be out (heck, they tell me 66% of their golfers arrive by private jet, so it was never really the working man's destination.....).  Myrtle Beach and Hilton Head gives way to a closer in trip, etc.

Given the golf participation rates in WI, IA and MN are the highest in the nation, and a probable trend to more regional golf trips, it should still work just fine, especially given Keiser's reputation.

[Andrew Buck]

Phil,

Kohler ain't exactly cheap, it's a pretty long day trip for most and only 1 course is on the lake.  River frontage is more than enough for me if the course(s) are good enough.

There really isn't a discernible difference in cost between Kohler and Bandon in the summer.  I would be surprised if this new venture provides much of a discount vs.  Kohler considering the short season. 

[Howard Riefs]

There really isn't a discernible difference in cost between Kohler and Bandon in the summer.  

That's accurate if you're looking Kohler's pricing for the River. The Irish and Meadows Valley are even less expensive than the Bandon greens fees. However, the cost for the Straits is an entirely different ballgame for high season. Even the replay rate on Straits is more expensive.

Straits:  
Greens fee:  $360
Mandatory caddie fee:  $60 + tip
Replay:  $250

Bandon (4 18-hole courses):
Resort guest greens fee:  $235
Replay:  $120

http://www.americanclubresort.com/rates/golf_rates.html
http://www.bandondunesgolf.com/pages/green_fees/118.php
 

[Andrew Buck]

That's why he's being cautious with this one.  He's not going to build three or four courses at once, he'll wait to see how the first one does.

Granted, I certainly am not an expert in the field, but assuming this is going to be a public or resort access facility, I would think there would be some measure of difficulty measuring the ability of a multi-course project to succeed based on the results achieved when only one course exists. 

With so many high end, multi-course complexes in the region for the avid (if not quite a discerning as GCA crowd) golfing crowd, I could see results being drastically different with only one course vs having two courses open.  I certainly understand stepping in slowly, and since I live 3 hours from there, I hope it happens.

[Andrew Buck]

There really isn't a discernible difference in cost between Kohler and Bandon in the summer.  

That's accurate if you're looking Kohler's pricing for the River. The Irish and Meadows Valley are even less expensive than the Bandon greens fees. However, the cost for the Straits is an entirely different ballgame for high season. Even the replay rate on Straits is more expensive.

Straits:  
Greens fee:  $360
Mandatory caddie fee:  $60 + tip
Replay:  $250

Bandon (4 18-hole courses):
Resort guest greens fee:  $235
Replay:  $120

http://www.americanclubresort.com/rates/golf_rates.html
http://www.bandondunesgolf.com/pages/green_fees/118.php
 

Fair, I was more looking at a summer golf package.

If you wish to stay 3 nights in the most modest double room and play all 4 courses over 3 days it is $1,320 at Bandon, and $1,453 at Kohler (which includes caddy's at the 2 walking only courses).  My point was simply that considering Bandon can be supported with year round play, I can't see the new project being that much less expensive than Kohler in the long run.   I would suspect if the resort gets up and running, the difference between the two will be experience, not price.

[Howard Riefs]

Fair, I was more looking at a summer golf package.

If you wish to stay 3 nights in the most modest double room and play all 4 courses over 3 days it is $1,320 at Bandon, and $1,453 at Kohler (which includes caddy's at the 2 walking only courses).  My point was simply that considering Bandon can be supported with year round play, I can't see the new project being that much less expensive than Kohler in the long run.   I would suspect if the resort gets up and running, the difference between the two will be experience, not price.

That makes sense on the pricing. 

[Phil McDade]

I'm more worried for Kohler and Erin Hills than I am for Keiser's effort, sight unseen.  Fortunately, none of them have to worry about where their next meal is coming from... Phil, just picture this scenario:  One of the GCA's mentioned builds a phenomenal course on sand in a climate that will support cool weather grasses and real F&F links conditions.  It gets rave reviews.  It is priced at or below Whistling Straights and Erin Hills.  It has some lake or river views.  Perhaps they even allow carts ( ).  Mid to high handicappers who play it find it more fun and forgiving than either of the above tournament venues.  It sneaks up the rankings lists.  They build out nice, but not overly expensive lodging.  They make their own brats.    They hire another interesting GCA for a second course.  Sound familiar?

You mean like Wild Horse?

[Jud_T]

I can't see the new project being that much less expensive than Kohler in the long run.   I would suspect if the resort gets up and running, the difference between the two will be experience, not price.

Well, for starters, how about lower costs for land, construction and maintenance?

[Greg Tallman]

Well, Kohler and EH will both have major championships on their resumes, and Rome, WI will never host one of those.....

That said, I still say it will work, and all three will stay in business, perhaps at an altered rate structure as the market separates out what is the favorite.

In 30 plus years in this biz, I have found that when times are really tough, golfers don't quit, but they get cheap.  Bandon Dunes may be out (heck, they tell me 66% of their golfers arrive by private jet, so it was never really the working man's destination.....).  Myrtle Beach and Hilton Head gives way to a closer in trip, etc.

Given the golf participation rates in WI, IA and MN are the highest in the nation, and a probable trend to more regional golf trips, it should still work just fine, especially given Keiser's reputation.

I have a very hard time believing that figure.

[Andrew Buck]

I can't see the new project being that much less expensive than Kohler in the long run.   I would suspect if the resort gets up and running, the difference between the two will be experience, not price.

Well, for starters, how about lower costs for land, construction and maintenance?

I hope you're right ... I am the target audience for this course, and I would certainly welcome a chance to take a nice couple day trip (or even a long day drive) and not have to spend twice what it costs for annual dues at some decent semi-private courses in our area.  I would be pleasantly surprised if that is the case. 

In the end, based on the very little information we know (Location, developer, potential GCA's), I would anticipate the cost is much closer to Kohler than Lawsiona or a place like Geneva National.  I hope I'm wrong here.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Older, partially paid off courses nearly always have a financial advantage over new ones.

You are overestimating the cost savings of "minimalism" and maybe even land purchase, since it is a small part of the total cost.  While earthmoving will be less, irrigation cost has exploded over the last decade, even if a cost conscious Don Mahaffey designs and installs it.  With sandy soils, it will be necessary.  Ditto any structure or infrastructure costs.

Greg,

The 66% figure came right from the GM of BD, whom was giving a quick presentation to members of ASGCA who showed up to play a few years back.  So, it is - or at least was - right on.  Unless you want to say the GM was lying, which is hard for ME to believe.......

[Greg Tallman]

Older, partially paid off courses nearly always have a financial advantage over new ones.

You are overestimating the cost savings of "minimalism" and maybe even land purchase, since it is a small part of the total cost.  While earthmoving will be less, irrigation cost has exploded over the last decade, even if a cost conscious Don Mahaffey designs and installs it.  With sandy soils, it will be necessary.  Ditto any structure or infrastructure costs.

Greg,

The 66% figure came right from the GM of BD, whom was giving a quick presentation to members of ASGCA who showed up to play a few years back.  So, it is - or at least was - right on.  Unless you want to say the GM was lying, which is hard for ME to believe.......

Simply saying I have a hard time believing the figure. Nothing less, nothing more.

[Tom_Doak]

Older, partially paid off courses nearly always have a financial advantage over new ones.

You are overestimating the cost savings of "minimalism" and maybe even land purchase, since it is a small part of the total cost.  While earthmoving will be less, irrigation cost has exploded over the last decade, even if a cost conscious Don Mahaffey designs and installs it.  With sandy soils, it will be necessary.  Ditto any structure or infrastructure costs.

Greg,

The 66% figure came right from the GM of BD, whom was giving a quick presentation to members of ASGCA who showed up to play a few years back.  So, it is - or at least was - right on.  Unless you want to say the GM was lying, which is hard for ME to believe.......

Jeff:

You're underestimating the savings of minimalism, and of Don's work, I think.

Also, I do not know the correct figure for the number of visitors to Bandon Dunes who arrive by private jet, I would bet my next year's design fees that it is nowhere near 66% of the total.  Maybe the figure you cited was the number of visitors who arrive by air?  Because I am pretty sure that 20-30% of Bandon's annual traffic is from residents of Washington and Oregon who DRIVE there, and when you take that out of the equation, the % attributable to private jets would be impossibly high.

[Andrew Buck]

You're underestimating the savings of minimalism, and of Don's work, I think.

I'm out of my element in knowing the true savings of a fully minimalist design (build and maintain) vs. Erin Hills vs. Kohler.  

Having said that, I would really only anticipate those savings being passed to the consumer if they needed to to increase demand for the course.  It would not surprise me at all for a first course to be built, and the resort to initially offer fees that are half of Kohler and Erin Hills to build demand.  However, if that is successful enough that a decision was made to expand to multiple courses, I would anticipate the cost charged to consumer to elevate to the same neighborhood as the other venues, even if the initial capital outlay and maintenance cost aren't as great.  

That said, even if it comes with a hefty price tag, I hope it happens and is successful.  With young kids at this time, and the relative difficulty getting to Bandon from the midwest, I don't envision being able to make that trip in the next 5 - 8 years.  If this comes to fruition, I'd almost certainly make it happen on a semi-regular basis.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Tom and Greg,

I was as stunned as you were, as were the others.  But, it was Steve Lesnik of Kemper, and someone asked him again.  I recall the context was right after AIG cancelled a bunch of tee times at Pebble after taking govt bail out money.  My memory may be fuzzy, as in it might have been 60 instead of 65%, but his point was very clear - Bandon was primarily a corporate entertainment venue, and didn't fill as many tee times with golf or architecture enthusiasts as we might think.

Fast forward 4 years and both sides of the equation are more cost conscious, I believe.  Not that most of us and businesses ever weren't.

Back in the go go days, I recall being at Giant's Ridge and the guy in the next booth at breakfast figured out who I was from my conversations.  Now, GR has the 1 and 5ish public courses in the state, and they are 19/88 nationally.  So, he tells me how much he loves the place, which of course puffed me up a bit.  He then goes on to say he was a corporate account entertainment guy for a bank and he was always bringing customers up there, and it was his favorite place to entertain their customers.  More puffed up.  Then he closes with, "I can golf 'em, feed 'em, and sleep 'em for the same amount I pay for golf over in Brainerd."  Less puffed up, but lesson learned.  Cost matters to almost everyone, and figures into the value they perceive.  Luckily, they got what they thought were better courses, but more importantly, for a little less money overall.

At least, that is the MN mentality (politically liberal (i.e. spending others money) but fiscally conservative (when spending their own.....) I got out of that.  Naturally they want a different place on most road trips, but they do put their favorites back in the rotation more often.  Again, all bodes well for a course that I presume will be perceived as equal or better to its competition, but it still needs to be competitively priced.  It may be that it comes in 10% higher in price, which is fine, as long as its perceived as 10% better a golf course.

OT, but somewhat related because we are discussing buddy trips, a source in Myrtle Beach tells me a part of their drop in rounds (from 4M at the peak to just over 3M now) isn't fewer trips.....its that they no longer play 36 per day to "max out" their golf trip.  He wasn't sure what percentage opted out of round two for aging legs and what percentage opted to save a little cash by avoiding the replay, but seemed to think it was as much or more aging crowds.

[Jud_T]

http://www.wisconsinrapidstribune.com/article/20130726/WRT01/307260192/

[William_G]

Well, Kohler and EH will both have major championships on their resumes, and Rome, WI will never host one of those.....

That said, I still say it will work, and all three will stay in business, perhaps at an altered rate structure as the market separates out what is the favorite.

In 30 plus years in this biz, I have found that when times are really tough, golfers don't quit, but they get cheap.  Bandon Dunes may be out (heck, they tell me 66% of their golfers arrive by private jet, so it was never really the working man's destination.....).  Myrtle Beach and Hilton Head gives way to a closer in trip, etc.

Given the golf participation rates in WI, IA and MN are the highest in the nation, and a probable trend to more regional golf trips, it should still work just fine, especially given Keiser's reputation.

I have a very hard time believing that figure.

yes that number is totally inaccurate 

[William_G]

Tom and Greg,

I was as stunned as you were, as were the others.  But, it was Steve Lesnik of Kemper, and someone asked him again.  I recall the context was right after AIG cancelled a bunch of tee times at Pebble after taking govt bail out money.  My memory may be fuzzy, as in it might have been 60 instead of 65%, but his point was very clear - Bandon was primarily a corporate entertainment venue, and didn't fill as many tee times with golf or architecture enthusiasts as we might think.

Bandon is still a huge corporate outing golf facility, there is no doubt, yet it's the quality of the golf/archictecture that pushes the 16 corporate guys to the Southern Coast of Oregon

[David Schofield]

http://www.wisconsinrapidstribune.com/article/20130726/WRT01/307260192/

Not to toot my own horn, but...

In July 2011, Haltom said Oliphant had a small group of private investors interested in building a golf course on 350 acres in Rome owned by Plum Creek Timberlands. The company had an option to purchase the land off of Badger Avenue, near 15th Avenue.

[Greg Tallman]

Well, Kohler and EH will both have major championships on their resumes, and Rome, WI will never host one of those.....

That said, I still say it will work, and all three will stay in business, perhaps at an altered rate structure as the market separates out what is the favorite.

In 30 plus years in this biz, I have found that when times are really tough, golfers don't quit, but they get cheap.  Bandon Dunes may be out (heck, they tell me 66% of their golfers arrive by private jet, so it was never really the working man's destination.....).  Myrtle Beach and Hilton Head gives way to a closer in trip, etc.

Given the golf participation rates in WI, IA and MN are the highest in the nation, and a probable trend to more regional golf trips, it should still work just fine, especially given Keiser's reputation.

I have a very hard time believing that figure.

yes that number is totally inaccurate  

Less than 20% arrive private air - straight from the top. 60-70% of play is from pacific northwest.

[RJ_Daley]

Unfortunately, I re-read this thread and realize I goofed up today.  I had to make a trip to Tomah WI today, and had time late this afternoon on the way home to Green Bay, so I thought I'd take a drive-by what I thought was this land in question.  However, I went by memory of the thread and thought is was the sections of land bounded by 13 and Badger Ave.  So I diverted to that location and did a 3 side of the tract there including Hwy 13, Badger Ave, and County O.  Well, I intended to get out and scout a bit, but most every piece of that area is posted no trespassing, and is basically a flat sand/gravel, silt and wetland, scrub pine and thick tangle of deer,lyme tick and turkey infested area.  It has some smallish pot-kettle lake called Dorro Couche Lake (any French speakers that can translate that?).  

Anyway, it turns out the land in question is about a mile and a half west on Badger Ave than where I was at.  The map/aerial looks like there 'may' be a bit of variance from what I saw at 13 and Badger.  Well I sure hope so, because that section I looked at was just plain crap!  Flat, silty sand plain, wetland and exactly one mail box down from nowhere, WI RFD.  

As you can see by link of map, convert to aerial and it may be better terrain at Badger and 15th Ave. with perhaps some elevation change.  I sure hope so!  

https://maps.google.com/maps?ie=UTF-8&hl=en&tab=wl&authuser=0

I honestly just can't see the kind of world class or even regional class potential here.  And, note on the map that the Lake Arrowhead courses that Jeff was involved with, are a mere 2 miles at the most, north of this property.  

Man, if Mr. Kaiser wants to get some land in WI to do a new project, I think I can find him something better than this; land quality and location!  

[Tom_Doak]

Man, if Mr. Kaiser wants to get some land in WI to do a new project, I think I can find him something better than this; land quality and location!  

RJ:  If you know of great, sandy land that could be had cheaply and could be permitted for a golf course, you can come directly to me, and I will scout it for Mr. Keiser.

However, rest assured that the land in question is anything but flat.  Some sections of it might be TOO STEEP for a great course, but with 2000 acres to choose from, no architect should have a problem finding something really good.