New courses being built in WI?

[Andrew Buck]

Welcome Brian, and thanks for the pictures. 

[Andrew Buck]

Frankly, to continue on my pessimistic bent, consider that Sentry World with all its purdy flowerbeds and long time reputation as a road trip for regional golfers to go see it, is in the process of nearly a complete remodel.  Their customer base has dried up from apparently having seen it once or twice and now yawn at the prospect of driving to play there.  Why?  And, I'd even go further and say that of the regional market of folk looking for a day or weekend trip to go play somewhere nice, a huge number of said people, if given the choice of going to play a Tom Doak masterpiece in the pine barrens, or go where they have them purdy flowers, would go to Sentry World.  

While I certainly think there is reason to be skeptical, if executed correctly the sheep will go to the Doak 8 in the middle of nowhere, because the publications and word of mouth will tell them to go tot he Doak 8 in the middle of nowhere.  I have only taken part of this site for 4 - 5 months, however I have studied golf courses for over 2/3rds of my 38 years on Earth, and I've lived in Northern Illinois my whole life.  I barely knew Lawsiona existed before this site, but I KNEW Bandon was a once in a lifetime experience since it's inception.  Maybe because I bought the hype, maybe because everyone who went there reported it was golfing heaven, but I knew it was different (without this site) and even different than Kohler, which I somewhat enjoy.

It does have to be great, and it does have to be reasonable (defined as slightly less than Kohler) to succeed, IMO, but if it's great, it will.  Magazine/Digest/Week will tell us all we need to go, and if it's great we'll all report back.  

[Rees Milikin]

Great pictures and if there are courses built here that are top notch, I have no doubts people will come.  

I wonder if there are any homes for sale next to that property and how much they are going for, time to do a little research.

[PCCraig]

Phil,

I know quite a few (many) golfers that drive over to Wisconsin to play the Kohler courses and Erin Hills. If (better?) courses were built by world class architects a couple hours closer, I'm guessing most would go there instead. Even average golfers know Bandon Dunes now...if you tell most Midwest golfers that the same team is doing a Wisconsin version, they would jump all over it. Of course that's just my opinion.

[Don_Mahaffey]

I don't know about this "it'll never work out there" mentality. Certainly, some remote courses have failed. Sometimes a bad idea, often poor execution, and sometimes just bad timing.

But, I remember being in AZ many moons ago when everyone thought Lyle Anderson was crazy for hiring Jack Nicklaus and spending all that money to develop Desert Mountain way out there in the boonies.

The he was crazy for doing the same at Superstition Mountain.

Wonder how many thought Dick Youngscap was smart for building a course far out in the middle of nowhere.

Same with so many other developments. Conventional wisdom says it's crazy to build something so far away. But, the world is shrinking in that travel is easier then ever, and, AND, these remote courses are built on land perfect for golf so the construction and maintenance costs are nothing compared to building on flat mud near a population base.

Doing something great is going against convention.

Lastly, I've been in the golf business a long time, and there is one myth I'd like to dispel, and that is a long season means more net revenue. What you want is a busy season, and a season with no expenses. Everyone thinks southern courses are more profitable because they have a long season, but what they have is year round expenses and their highest expense months (summer) often are their lowest revenue months (Thinking SW US). Open when busy and closed when slow is better then paying a lot for upkeep when you have few golfers playing on discounted rates.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Don,

Agree on the long season not being more profitable. 

MN and WI have many, many weekend resorts (think Giants Ridge, Fortune Bay, Black Bear, Big Fish, all of Brainerd, etc.) that do all right.  The participation rate and demographics are great for golf up there, and the golf buddy trip is alive and well.  In some cases, the recession only helps places like that - to save a little money and still play golf, the northern golfers skips FL or Myrtle Beach in favor of closer in summer trips.

[Tom_Doak]

Jeff and Don,

I agree with what you both said about the seasonal nature of golf, but the sidebar to that [which you both know but didn't mention] is that a shorter season makes a much longer payback time on infrastructure.  "Just a golf course" can operate pretty effectively in a short-season environment, but if you've gotta build a lodging component, it costs the same to build as a full 12-month operation but you don't make nearly as much in a given year to pay it off.  That requires caution against building any more facility than you really need.  Dick Youngscap understood that part better than any other developer I've met.

[Jeff_Brauer]

When I was building the golf course up the road, I stayed at a variety of motels, none better than the motel 6.  It was good enough for then 25 year old me.......why not the patrons of this new resort? LOL.  And some really decent, but not fancy corner bars serving way too big dinners.  Fond memories up there, and those dusty hotels......

But, the rustic cabins would sure work up in those Northwoods, and you could build them 3-4 at a time as the demand went up.

[Brian Zager]

You're welcome guys, glad you like the pictures.

Welcome to GCA Brian.  Do you live in Rapids or Point, or other?  Where do you play most of your golf?  

I'm in Rapids.  Officially on my handicap my home course is The Ridges.  It has some fun risk reward holes bringing ponds and a creek into play and then there are some bad holes with forced layups.  It has pretty flat boring greens, not much interesting going on there.  I haven't played there much this year though, they had a lot of winter kill on the greens that never really recovered and at the same time raised their rate, a bad combination.

I like Bull's Eye, they are private but they are offering tee times to non-members now so I have been there about a half dozen times a year the last couple years.  It has a fair amount of elevation change with a nice mix of uphill and downhill holes.  The greens also have a lot of contour to them and are fast. To score well you have to know where to hit it to stay below the hole.

I hit the Lake Arrowhead courses about 8-10 times a year.  Not as much elevation change as the proposed new property but still some interesting holes in a mostly natural sandy setting.  There are houses around but they aren't too much of an eye sore as they are tucked into the trees.  It is annoying that if you do get into the trees OB is usually nearby. I like the Pines course the best.  You guys did a pretty good job with it Jeff, although now that I know about this land just south of it I wish it was built there!

I'm not much of a fan of Sentry.  Way overpriced and not much fun to play.  Too many forced layups and to me natural settings are more beautiful than a flower garden.  I'd take Lake Arrowhead any day over this and it is half the price.  Don't know about the changes they are making.  I heard they are putting in new tee boxes, maybe that will help with some of the forced layups but I'm not counting on it.

That's about it for this area.  There's a couple 9 hole courses good for a quick golf fix but not all that interesting from a design perspective.  I venture out into the 50 mile radius area about 5-10 times a year with a different mix of golf course and about twice a year go beyond that.

[RJ_Daley]

Brian, if you want to drive about 65 miles and I'll do same, I'll be glad to meet you at Lawsonia for a hit.  It is as good as I've ever seen it this fall, and the price is right after 1Pm when they start their twilight.  I didn't get enough of it last week with GCAer, Pete Pittock.  Bring a friend.

[Brian Zager]

I'd love to go play Lawsonia but with the long drive I'm not sure if I can fit it into my schedule right now.  I only have weekends off with my regular job and I'm going to be pretty busy over the next 3 weeks with my side job which is creating 3D digital models of golf courses for a golf simulator company.

By the way, if there is any interest in having this course design digitally created as viewable/playable on a computer or simulator, before or after it is created for real, let me know.  I'm willing to work for future free/discounted golf instead of getting paid in this case. Actually I'm willing to help in almost any way to help make this happen.  I use LiDAR data to import elevations very accurately and can easily create a 3D model of the land. I can go out and take more pictures or video of things too.  Those with connections let me know if there is anything I can do to help.

I honestly don't know the business side well enough to know if it will work in this area or not. My opinion on it doesn't count as I'm pretty biased.   Obviously I hope it is successful but from my perspective I'd rather have it built and fail then never built at all.  I guess it's easy to say that when it's not your money. Just the chance to see a world class golf course created by the likes of Tom Doak or C&C almost in your backyard is pretty exciting let alone getting the chance to play it.

[PCCraig]

http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/227229941.html?ipad=y

Here is an article on the project, now called "Sand Valley". Mr Doak and C&C to design two courses. With 1500 acres they will have room for 5 courses.

[Eric Smith]

http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/227229941.html?ipad=y

Here is an article on the project, now called "Sand Valley". Mr Doak and C&C to design two courses. With 1500 acres they will have room for 5 courses.

Thanks for the link, Pat. Interesting. Sand Valley is also the name of GCAer Tony Ristola's project in Poland that has been discussed a bit here on GCA.

[Tom_Doak]

Sand Valley was the working name for Pacific Dunes, for a while.  It's Mike's fallback name when he has yet to come up with something better -- a combination of Sand Hills and Pine Valley.

And despite the last post, I haven't been hired yet, and don't know whether I will be.

[Dan Kelly]

Sand Valley was the working name for Pacific Dunes, for a while.  It's Mike's fallback name when he has yet to come up with something better -- a combination of Sand Hills and Pine Valley.

I liked this comment on the Journal Sentinel story:

Mr Fairway - Oct 10 at 10:37 AM
While I think it would be cool to have high-end courses like Keiser builds in central Wisconsin, he has to find a better name than Sand Valley, which makes it sound like it's one big bunker. Even Red Pine or Plum Creek would be better.

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I like the sound of Red Pine. Combo of Dismal Red and Pine Valley?

Way better than Dismal Valley, at any rate....

[JC Jones]

They could call it Streamsong North with a Red course and a Pine course.   

[Morgan Clawson]

Wow - great photos.  Looks to be nearly ideal land.

Wisconsin Rapids is less than 250 miles from the 3rd, 16th, and 39th largest metro areas in the country (Chicago, Mpls./StP, and Milwaukee, respectively).  Madison and Green Bay are 2 middle size markets that are even closer.

There are more than enough golfers in those metros to make this successful.

Remember, people thought Tommy Bartlett was crazy when he started water ski shows in the Wisconsin Dells.

[Howard Riefs]

I liked this comment on the Journal Sentinel story:

Mr Fairway - Oct 10 at 10:37 AM
While I think it would be cool to have high-end courses like Keiser builds in central Wisconsin, he has to find a better name than Sand Valley, which makes it sound like it's one big bunker. Even Red Pine or Plum Creek would be better.

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I like the sound of Red Pine. Combo of Dismal Red and Pine Valley?

Way better than Dismal Valley, at any rate....

I'm going with this combo:  "Badger Dunes."

(insert smiley face emoticon)

[Jud_T]

Wow - great photos.  Looks to be nearly ideal land.

Wisconsin Rapids is less than 250 miles from the 3rd, 16th, and 39th largest metro areas in the country (Chicago, Mpls./StP, and Milwaukee, respectively).  Madison and Green Bay are 2 middle size markets that are even closer.

There are more than enough golfers in those metros to make this successful.

Remember, people thought Tommy Bartlett was crazy when he started water ski shows in the Wisconsin Dells.

Morgan,

My sentiments exactly.  I don't see how this won't be a success.  It's just a matter of whether it's a modest success or a home run IMO.  Either way it's a win-win for midwestern golfers used to teeing it up on clay...

[JC Jones]

midwestern golfers used to teeing it up on clay 

Do they all live in Carolina like me?  The midwest has dense, loamy and nutrient rich soils with certain areas having sand from glaciers and pre-historic lakes.  Not a lot of clay in the midwest. 

[Tim Lewis]

I was actually at this meeting that the jsonline article talks about. From what Mike Keiser said, he seemed extremely optimistic that this project would be a success, commenting that even his friends that told him Bandon would never be a success were sold on the project. Even though the articles says the meeting was for potential investors, Keiser said that they already had plenty of investors and the talk was more about just explaining what he expected this new project to be like. They also showed some pictures of what they expected the course to look like, and I cant even imagine that this project would not be a success. It seems to be creating quite a buzz among Wisconsin golfers, and I am sure that plenty of people will be making the trip up there when it opens.

Tim

[J.D. Griffith]

I, for one am very excited about this project.  And can attest that the buzz in Wisconsin is growing.  You would be surprised at how many golfers from the upper Midwest have already made the trek to Bandon, and they have spread the word.  It is truly a great time to be a golfer living in Wisconsin.

[RJ_Daley]

I feel uncomfortable mentioning any negatives about this idea, in the face of all the positive blue sky talk. So, don't get me wrong... I am thrilled with the notion that a world class golf developer might bring his formula to our corner of the market and probably employ some of the best architects or our time to design something here.  

Far be it from me to say that something like this isn't a slam dunk in the face of all the talent and experience Kaiser will bring.  But, being a contrary SOB, I guess I still think of some aspects of the WI market that I think I "might" have a sense about.  Really, I am not saying I have 'any' real expertise;  just been around here a while.  

So, I'm thinking about what one poster says above about nearby Green Bay/Fox Valley metro golfers supporting this, and the Madison market.  What little I know, it just seems to me that by comparison, my guess is not 50 golfers a year from this Green Bay market and maybe 100 from the metro area play one round at Whistling Straits if paying rack rates.  There may be a few more that go on some corp's dime and that may be no distinction to the Kohler operations as far as who rings the register.  But, even with corp freebies and such, I can't imagine this area sends 300 paying rounds to WS and not 500 rounds to both Straits and BWR courses. Then, consider how many golfers travel to Erin Hills to tee it up even once a year... and again, not that many, which is opinion not backed up by any facts I know for sure.  

Now just project that out to Milwaukee and Minneapolis and how many will pay rack rates to go even one and done to the Kohler or EH courses.  Throw in some other mid-high end offerings like The Bull (Nicklaus) and golf architecture fan favorite Lawsonia Links, along with belt notch seekers who get invites to the likes of Milwaukee CC or Blue Mounds, and I just don't see these immediate metro areas contributing more than a thousand basically one and done rounds to visit Adams County version of Pine Valley.  Particularly if the rack rate for golfers is $150+.  So the next tier is; what does the Twin Cities and Chi town contribute?  Then throw in the 'rest-of-the-world' like Bandon and Cabot seem to have to rely upon...?   And, what sort of facilities have to be built to lodge the denizens it will require to support even 15,000 rounds a year?  

It seems to me that it will take an extraordinary developer to pull this off and absorb the costs to build it out on some sort of long term vision basis.  There is little question that Mr. Kaiser fits the bill.  So, I hope he will bring the magic.  

[Jud_T]

Jeez,

Based on that analysis everyone whose not a muni should just plow their courses under and plant potatoes.  If they can get every high end golfer in Chicago to make the trip twice a decade that alone would probably cover their nut.  It's obviously a hit or miss endeavor.  If they can create enough of a buzz, there's more than enough flush warm bodies to pack the tee sheets.  If not then they probably didn't execute things the way they anticipated.  It obviously hinges on these not being simply another high priced couple of course but something really special and unique to the region.

[Jud_T]