News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Steve Kline

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cincinnati, OH Meetup - August 10th & 11th at Clovernook & Hyde Park
« Reply #50 on: August 11, 2013, 09:10:46 PM »
Jason - when I played Hyde Park before the restoration you probably would have been able to only see the 4th hole. Maybe glimpses of the 6th and 7th greens. Certainly you wouldn't have seen any of 13 green, 8 tee, or 3 green. The club, super (Pat Obrien - not sure I got the spelling right), and Tim Liddy should all be congratulated. Hyde Park is a club doing all the right things to its golf course. And, I was really excited by what they are going to do to the 13th and the possibility of the new 15th and 16th (rather restoration of 15 and 16).

Evan Fleisher

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cincinnati, OH Meetup - August 10th & 11th at Clovernook & Hyde Park
« Reply #51 on: August 11, 2013, 10:35:26 PM »
Just got home a couple hours ago and an am I beat!  Walking 54 holes in that Cincy heat/ humidity was brutal.

Wanted to echo the thoughts on today's round at Hyde Park...kudos to the team there and restoration work being pursued by Tim Liddy and his crew, it is clearly the right thing to do for the golf course and the results will make a good course even that much better.

One thing I will say about today's round...the rough was a beast!  So gnarly and tangly that it was really hard to advance the ball and many times it was simply a "take your medicine" and get it back into play scenario.  It effectively lengthened the course and made hitting fairways a premium for scoring.

One question for our crew that played out there today.  On the drive back up to Cleveland, Chris Sturges and I were pondering the green sites.  Can anyone name another Ross course with similarly sized (but more specifically SHAPED) greens to those at HP?  The name Ross was not one that I would have first jumped to when seeing those greens for the first time.  The internal contours were pretty cool and the extended false fronts and tie-ins to the surrounding terrain (like 10 and 12) helped make that connection...but honestly I am having a hard time saying that the greens were clearly of a typical Ross design.  Thoughts?

Lastly, a big SHOUT OUT to Brian Finn for putting together the logistics of the weekend and making it all happen...from the great courses we got to play, to the presentations at dinner at Clovernook last night (along with all the GCA tall tales and the Mark Saltzman rumor mill) to this mornings informative session with Tim Liddy, it was a fantastic two days of camaraderie and making / extending friendships...exactly what this site should be all about.  So here's to Brian!!!
Born Rochester, MN. Grew up Miami, FL. Live Cleveland, OH. Handicap 13.2. Have 26 & 23 year old girls and wife of 29 years. I'm a Senior Supply Chain Business Analyst for Vitamix. Diehard walker, but tolerate cart riders! Love to travel, always have my sticks with me. Mollydooker for life!

Steve Kline

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cincinnati, OH Meetup - August 10th & 11th at Clovernook & Hyde Park
« Reply #52 on: August 12, 2013, 07:01:12 AM »
Evan - I'm not familiar with enough Ross courses to say if there are any other set of greens like it. I can't think of anything as bold, although Inverness had some interesting internal contours. I've only played it once and they weren't as bold as HPCC from what I remember. All the internal contours are the same as they were at least 25 years ago. I doubt they have been messed with much since most courses did to tame them down. Imagine playing those greens after having been rolled and double cut in one of the local qualifiers. They are really tough then.

Paging Brad Klein on other Donald Ross greens like HPCC.

As for the rough, I didn't have much problem, but I can take a pretty healthy cut at it. It has to be pretty darn hard for the regular members though. It wasn't the length of the rough so much as the thickness.

I enjoyed everyone and thanks again to Brian for organizing the weekend.

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cincinnati, OH Meetup - August 10th & 11th at Clovernook & Hyde Park
« Reply #53 on: August 12, 2013, 10:19:18 AM »
Hyde Park shames those clubs that have failed to exercise appropriate stewardship of Donald Ross' work, letting poor/lazy maintenance practices and architectural indifference turn his often wonderful greens into cartoon caricatures of perfectly round inverted saucers.

Hyde Park's greens are a 10 in my book with their abundant average size of 7500 square feet and their hard edges (loved the straight line across the front of the 12th green) and pinnable nooks.  I fell in love with the course and would put it in the same class of the other stellar Ross renovations I've played including Idle Hour, Mountain Ridge, Beverly and Augusta CC.   Arguably a top 150 classic that has almost made me forget about my beloved Lulu.

More later on Hyde Park and Clovernook which I enjoyed immensely as well.

Thanks to our planners and hosts.  So glad I made this event.  It was also a treat to go around Hyde Park with Tim Liddy whose sensitivity to the plight of an absolutely hacking 18 handicapper was undoubtedly enhanced.   It was nice to be useful.   You're welcome, Tim.

Bogey
« Last Edit: August 12, 2013, 10:23:20 AM by Michael_Hendren »
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

JLahrman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cincinnati, OH Meetup - August 10th & 11th at Clovernook & Hyde Park
« Reply #54 on: August 12, 2013, 12:00:45 PM »
Any pics to come? Especially of Hyde Park, since Jason Thurman already posted a pictorial of Clovernook a few months ago.

Steve Kline

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cincinnati, OH Meetup - August 10th & 11th at Clovernook & Hyde Park
« Reply #55 on: August 12, 2013, 12:36:42 PM »
I didn't see anyone in the group taking pictures. I don't know how people find the time to do that. I tried for a few holes on a course about a month ago and gave up. It just gets in my way too much.

Brian Finn

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cincinnati, OH Meetup - August 10th & 11th at Clovernook & Hyde Park
« Reply #56 on: August 12, 2013, 12:43:38 PM »
Thanks to Jason Thurman and Tim Liddy for making a fun and interesting weekend possible.  Both Clovernook and Hyde Park were terrific.  I managed to snap a few photos at Hyde Park on my iPhone.  They are not outstanding quality, but hopefully give a sense of the course and the great work Tim Liddy and Superintendent Pat O'Brien have been doing over the last several years.  In addition to the astute observations already made by others, I was struck by how well both of these courses 'defended par' primarily around the greens.  Neither course played very long, yet both seem to stand the test of time quite well thanks to challenging greens/surrounds.

View of #2 (457/424 yard par 4) green from left fairway:


Sneak peek of #3 (214/196 yard par 3) from behind 2nd green:


View from #3 (214/196 yard par 3) tee:


Steep uphill approach shot on #4 (389/370 yard par 4):


Jason teeing off on the 5th (488/477 yard par 5):


Tee shot on #6 (539/524 yard par 5):


#7 (192/164 yard par 3) across a ravine:


8th hole (376/363 yard par 4):


9th hole (392/370 yard par 4):


12th hole (225/208 yard par 3) crosses 2 ravines:


17th hole (426/412 yard par 4):
« Last Edit: August 12, 2013, 01:46:43 PM by Brian Finn »
New for '24: Monifieth x2, Montrose x2, Panmure, Carnoustie x3, Scotscraig, Kingsbarns, Elie, Dumbarnie, Lundin, Belvedere, The Loop x2, Forest Dunes, Arcadia Bluffs x2, Kapalua Plantation, Windsong Farm, Minikahda...

Steve Kline

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cincinnati, OH Meetup - August 10th & 11th at Clovernook & Hyde Park
« Reply #57 on: August 12, 2013, 01:06:58 PM »
I'm almost 100% sure the ones you have labeled 10 and 11 are actually the second shot on 8 and the tee shot on 9.

Brian Finn

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cincinnati, OH Meetup - August 10th & 11th at Clovernook & Hyde Park
« Reply #58 on: August 12, 2013, 01:47:19 PM »
I'm almost 100% sure the ones you have labeled 10 and 11 are actually the second shot on 8 and the tee shot on 9.
Yes...thank you, Steve.  I updated the above post to reflect the correct holes.
New for '24: Monifieth x2, Montrose x2, Panmure, Carnoustie x3, Scotscraig, Kingsbarns, Elie, Dumbarnie, Lundin, Belvedere, The Loop x2, Forest Dunes, Arcadia Bluffs x2, Kapalua Plantation, Windsong Farm, Minikahda...

JLahrman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cincinnati, OH Meetup - August 10th & 11th at Clovernook & Hyde Park
« Reply #59 on: August 12, 2013, 01:57:51 PM »
I didn't see anyone in the group taking pictures. I don't know how people find the time to do that. I tried for a few holes on a course about a month ago and gave up. It just gets in my way too much.

I agree...every time I try to take a nice selection of photos, I feel like I'm running around too much, losing concentration on my own game and/or slowing the group down. But somehow people find ways to do it - perhaps just better at it than I am?

Thanks for the pics Brian, the course looks great.

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Cincinnati, OH Meetup - August 10th & 11th at Clovernook & Hyde Park
« Reply #60 on: August 12, 2013, 03:59:07 PM »
Brian, you're a great photographer. The angle of that shot makes my backswing position look almost textbook. From closer to face-on, that collapsing left knee would be much more obvious. Also, thank you for snapping the photo on my backswing as opposed to the follow-through. There's not a camera angle in the world that would make the follow-through look textbook. I'm just thankful I didn't walk right off the cliff after hitting the tee shot pictured on 5.

As Charlie said, the green sites at both courses are pretty fantastic. I can't think of two better courses I've played on back-to-back days in that regard.

Evan, regarding the shape and contour of the greens at Hyde Park, I think Idle Hour has a somewhat similar set. Its recent renovation also involved recapturing a lot of the original green pads with similarly geometric edges in many spots. They're also large and feature similar internal contour. Comparing the Google Maps view of the two courses and looking just at the green sites is pretty stunning. There's a lot of similarity there.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

BHoover

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cincinnati, OH Meetup - August 10th & 11th at Clovernook & Hyde Park
« Reply #61 on: August 12, 2013, 06:52:08 PM »
Thanks again to Brian Finn for organizing the event and to Jason Thurman for hosting us at Clovernook. This was first time playing golf in Cincinnati (despite going to Miami U up the road in Oxford). Clovernook was a real treat and the opportunity to speak with the pro emeritus and the current super was very great. Very interesting to hear their thoughts on how the course has changed over time and the challenges they face.

Above all it was great to meet a great bunch of GCA guys. Wish I could have stayed around to play Hyde Park and to hear Tim Liddy, but that wasn't in the cards.

We need to make this a regular event. Plenty of great courses to explore in Columbus, Cleveland, Akron-Canton, Toledo and Dayton, to name a few locations.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2013, 07:00:38 PM by Brian Hoover »

Criss Titschinger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cincinnati, OH Meetup - August 10th & 11th at Clovernook & Hyde Park
« Reply #62 on: August 12, 2013, 08:48:37 PM »
Thanks for the reports and pics of Hyde Park. Sounds like it was a blast!

I agree with the comments of Clovernook's greens. Some of the most fun greens I've ever played.

I was thinking about you guys as I was walking up from the Skyline at Clifton and Ludlow back to the hospital. Seemed like Cincinnati humidity was in full action.

Cute Kid Warning: This was my view most of this past weekend. Born on the same day as her 2 year-old sister (Aug. 9th). What are the odds?

JLahrman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cincinnati, OH Meetup - August 10th & 11th at Clovernook & Hyde Park
« Reply #63 on: August 12, 2013, 08:52:10 PM »
Cute Kid Warning: This was my view most of this past weekend. Born on the same day as her 2 year-old sister (Aug. 9th). What are the odds?

Congratulations sir but the odds are 1/365, which can be significantly increased with certain precautionary steps.

They might eventually be upset at having to share their big day, but at least it's one less date for you to remember!
« Last Edit: August 12, 2013, 09:17:19 PM by JLahrman »

Criss Titschinger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cincinnati, OH Meetup - August 10th & 11th at Clovernook & Hyde Park
« Reply #64 on: August 12, 2013, 09:01:51 PM »

Congratulations sir but the odds are 1/365, which can be significantly increased with certain precautionary steps.

Fair enough.  :)

Brian Finn

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cincinnati, OH Meetup - August 10th & 11th at Clovernook & Hyde Park
« Reply #65 on: August 12, 2013, 09:05:38 PM »
Cute Kid Warning: This was my view most of this past weekend. Born on the same day as her 2 year-old sister (Aug. 9th). What are the odds?
Congrats, Criss.  She is really cute. We will be sure to get you to the next OH get together.
New for '24: Monifieth x2, Montrose x2, Panmure, Carnoustie x3, Scotscraig, Kingsbarns, Elie, Dumbarnie, Lundin, Belvedere, The Loop x2, Forest Dunes, Arcadia Bluffs x2, Kapalua Plantation, Windsong Farm, Minikahda...

John Mayhugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cincinnati, OH Meetup - August 10th & 11th at Clovernook & Hyde Park
« Reply #66 on: August 12, 2013, 09:57:30 PM »
As for the rough, I didn't have much problem, but I can take a pretty healthy cut at it. It has to be pretty darn hard for the regular members though. It wasn't the length of the rough so much as the thickness.

Thanks to Tim and Brian for arranging Hyde Park.  Getting several groups out at mid-day on a Sunday was great, but the kind of welcome and treatment we got was fantastic. The course is a lot of fun, and the members are understandably proud of it.  Like everyone else, I really enjoyed the greens.

The work that Tim's doing will definitely improve the course.  I hope the changes to the 13th will inspire even more tree removal.

I think that the rough combined with the trees is their most significant issue.  I understand that tree removal takes time and a large $ commitment.  On most of the holes, there's quite a bit of room off the tee.  The problem is that when you do miss a fairway, you're generally in the trees and in thick rough.  The average guy isn't going to be able to create the kind of clubhead speed needed to both get out of the rough and keep the ball under the trees.  As a result, players miss out on the kind of recovery shots that those greens deserve to see. Lots more fun getting out of position 20 yards from the green and trying to save par than to try to save it from 130 yards after a punch out.  

Brian Finn

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cincinnati, OH Meetup - August 10th & 11th at Clovernook & Hyde Park
« Reply #67 on: August 12, 2013, 10:13:21 PM »
For those that were at Hyde Park on Sunday, please take a moment to send a thank you to Tim Liddy, Pat O'Brien, and Eric O'Bryan.  

Tim Liddy
301 South Pinehurst Lane
Yorktown, Indiana
timliddy@me.com

Eric O'Bryan, Manager
3740 Erie Avenue
Cincinnati, Ohio  45208
eobryan@hydeparkcc.com

Pat O'Brien, Superintendent
3740 Erie Avenue
Cincinnati, Ohio  45208
grounds@hydeparkcc.com

For those that went to Clovernook...Jason is going to get us info for Bob and Bob so we can send them thank you as well.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2013, 10:17:41 PM by Brian Finn »
New for '24: Monifieth x2, Montrose x2, Panmure, Carnoustie x3, Scotscraig, Kingsbarns, Elie, Dumbarnie, Lundin, Belvedere, The Loop x2, Forest Dunes, Arcadia Bluffs x2, Kapalua Plantation, Windsong Farm, Minikahda...

Tim Liddy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cincinnati, OH Meetup - August 10th & 11th at Clovernook & Hyde Park
« Reply #68 on: August 13, 2013, 07:50:23 AM »
No need to thank me. It was a fun day. The members enjoyed showing off their golf course and its evolution over the past few years. It was also great to connect faces with names on the web site. Count me in for next year.

Steve Kline

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cincinnati, OH Meetup - August 10th & 11th at Clovernook & Hyde Park
« Reply #69 on: August 13, 2013, 09:21:21 AM »
A fantastic outing next year would be NCR South and Moraine. I don't think NCR is too hard to get on but I'm not sure about Moraine. This would be interesting because the two courses are right next store to each other so they share similar property. Therefore, it would be interesting to compare and contrast them.

BHoover

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cincinnati, OH Meetup - August 10th & 11th at Clovernook & Hyde Park
« Reply #70 on: August 13, 2013, 09:23:40 AM »
A fantastic outing next year would be NCR South and Moraine. I don't think NCR is too hard to get on but I'm not sure about Moraine. This would be interesting because the two courses are right next store to each other so they share similar property. Therefore, it would be interesting to compare and contrast them.

Excellent idea.  The terrain in Dayton is very interesting (at least that's what I thought when I played NCR South).  It would be cool to compare and contrast two courses that are literally next to each other.

There is another set of courses in Cleveland that are literally next-door neighbors like NCR and Moraine--The Country Club and Pepper Pike Club--but accessing those for an outing might be damn near impossible.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2013, 09:29:16 AM by Brian Hoover »

JLahrman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cincinnati, OH Meetup - August 10th & 11th at Clovernook & Hyde Park
« Reply #71 on: August 13, 2013, 10:09:58 AM »
A fantastic outing next year would be NCR South and Moraine. I don't think NCR is too hard to get on but I'm not sure about Moraine. This would be interesting because the two courses are right next store to each other so they share similar property. Therefore, it would be interesting to compare and contrast them.

I might try to make that one, that would be a lot of fun. Not sure if it would be worth it to try to include NCR North, I've never played it but it's obviously right there as well.

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cincinnati, OH Meetup - August 10th & 11th at Clovernook & Hyde Park
« Reply #72 on: August 13, 2013, 10:43:59 AM »
I'm somewhat surprised by the comments on the rough at Hyde Park.  I thought it was just right.  But then again, I'm a hacker and have a lot of practice hacking out of it.  I'm also a digger, which helps immensely.   Finally, I grew up playing bermuda rough which makes everything else a piece of cake.  I also thought the hole corridors were more than generous.

Just to moderate my absolute lovefest I thought the course was short on the long two shot holes Ross is noted for.  The final two qualified but were a long gap from the second.  Also, the extremely short par four on the back is surprisingly devoid of strategy.  I'd like to hear from any of the participants that played it other than as a bunt and pitch.  

Too bad nobody fought a duel on the par three third - it would be much more famous than the Duel Hole at SFGC.  Amazing that Ross found the third and fourth holes so early in the routing.  They're stellar.

Bogey+
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Steve Kline

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cincinnati, OH Meetup - August 10th & 11th at Clovernook & Hyde Park
« Reply #73 on: August 13, 2013, 11:06:55 AM »
I agree with you regards the rough and playing corridors. Yes, the rough is challenging, but I had no problem making contact and advancing the ball near the green. Also, for the most part the only trees left in play are big, stately oaks that been limbed quite high so you can play underneath them. As few personal examples, I hit a drive very short and very right on the second. I had 230 left and was able to hit a low fading 3-wood under the trees just left of the front of the green. On 6 I was again way right, but was able to hit an 8-iron over the trees to get back in play on the par five. On 10, I was again way right (noticing a trend are we) and was able to hit a hybrid up near the green. On 17 I was (finally) left and was able to hit a low hooking six iron around a tree onto the green. On the last I hit a 7 iron from 180 onto the green. Granted, my rusty skill level is higher than the average golfer at the club but I feel the rough and trees are just about right.

There was a significant gap between long holes as the course plays for member play. However, the fifth, without changing tee placement, plays as a long par 4 from the back tees in local qualifiers. Also, the 10th actually plays longer than 17 and 18 because most good players are laying up to 175-200 yards because of the slope in the fairway. I am almost always hitting a longer second shot into 10 than either 17 or 18. The club could easily go to a brutish par 70 or par 69 by turning the fifth and 13th into par 4s but that's just scorecard stuff.

I agree that the third, fourth, and fifth are key to the routing. Getting around through that ravine and around and over the giant knob that the 4th green sits on is masterful. I also love the routing of the 12th - the long par 3 over the two ravines. It has some fairway between the two ravines and when I was a kid I would lay up in that fairway with a 6 or 7 iron and then a 9 iron or wedge onto the green.

Also, I agree that short par 4 14th still needs some work. Because it is impossible to run the ball onto the green there is zero temptation for me to drive that green - and it is only 280 yards from the back tee to the center of the green. Every time I play that hole it is 6 iron sand wedge without a question. The green is also unwise to go for because a miss right or left is likely a lost ball. But, it would be more enticing if the green front was opened up and central bunker was placed in the fairway in the ideal lay up position - say something in the right center of the fairway about a 100 yards from the green.

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Cincinnati, OH Meetup - August 10th & 11th at Clovernook & Hyde Park
« Reply #74 on: August 13, 2013, 11:23:54 AM »
A fantastic outing next year would be NCR South and Moraine. I don't think NCR is too hard to get on but I'm not sure about Moraine. This would be interesting because the two courses are right next store to each other so they share similar property. Therefore, it would be interesting to compare and contrast them.

I might try to make that one, that would be a lot of fun. Not sure if it would be worth it to try to include NCR North, I've never played it but it's obviously right there as well.

Steve and Joel, great idea. I'd be honored if NCR was willing to host us for 36 holes. I just like seeing new courses in general. NCR/Moraine would be an amazing weekend.

Michael, agreed on the lack of long par 4s, though 12 and 14 (as a one-shot hole) still tested long approaches. I also think that 13 is essentially a two-shotter for all practical purposes, as long as you don't hit a turbo-block tee shot there like I did.

Actually, now that I think about it, you're probably referring to 14 as the "extremely short par 4." I initially thought you meant 16 when I read that line. I found 14 more dangerous than I realized at first glance. I wasn't striking the ball very well on Sunday, and basically just played a low hook around the course for most of the day. On 14, I hit a low hooked 3 wood that I thought was pretty ok, though doomed to miss the green left. I figured it would be an easy up-and-down until I watched it bounce into the bushes and out of bounds. I think the close proximity of a stroke and distance penalty (I missed the green by about 20 feet wide, at most) is what makes the hole a "par 4" but also what removes a lot of its strategy. It just isn't worth taking any real run at the hole in medal play. In match play though, it could be pretty interesting.

Now, 16 I thought was pretty devoid of strategy and I'm glad to hear that Tim will be pushing to tweak it. On that tee shot, I just purposefully smashed it into the 10th fairway, figuring if I turned it over and got it drawing it would end up not too far from the front edge but that taking a line so far right would assure that I didn't hit one onto Erie Avenue. It sailed straight toward 10, from where I clanked my 80 yard punch SW off the flagstick and made a pretty easy par. That stretch from 13-16 is probably the weak point of the course, though I still think 13-15 have a fair amount of interest. I just think they'll be much stronger when the work on 13 is finished and assuming 15 and 16 see their restoration work undertaken and completed.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back