An Exercise in Judgment

[Jason Topp]

The 15th at Windsong Farm is a difficult long par four that measures 499 from the back tee and either 422 or 457 from the tees I play. 
You can explore the hole here:

http://course.bluegolf.com/bluegolf/course/course/windsongfarmgc/aerial.htm

When played into a wind, I need to precisely place my tee shot next to a huge fairway bunker and then hit a shot from around 190 yards into the green.  This picture shows a relatively common location for a second shot for me:



On three occasions, I have tried playing the hole down the 12th fairway.  This approach reduces the yardage on the hole and shortens the approach by about 30 yards because the tee shot plays downhill.  The alternative does take some risk because of the position of the fairway bunker on the 12th and the wetlands makes for a tight driving area when the fairway is firm. 

The 2nd shot is from a more difficult position due to trees and bunkers guarding the approach and because the approach plays a club uphill.    However hitting an approach from 160 rather than 190 offsets those difficulties for me.  This photo shows a typical position that I have found after such a tee shot:



My current guiding principle is to let the presence or absence of people on the 12th hole dictate my line of play off the tee.  However, if score were my primary concern, I think I would play down the 12th any time this hole plays into the wind. 

I go back and forth on whether this is a design flaw.  On a public course it certainly would be a problem.  In the context of our club, it is a fun "secret" that gives us shorter hitters a chance to keep up with the bombers.  The members can generally be trusted to use good judgment on this sort of thing. 

[Rich Goodale]

Serious design flaw, IMHO.

[Mark McKeever]

Agreed.  I think thats a flaw in the design of the hole.  But you might as well take advantage if you can.

Mark

[David_Tepper]

I agree that it is a design flaw. I am not a fan of internal out of bounds, but this is an example of where it could be used for safety's sake, to protect players on #12 from tee shots off #15.   

[Mark Bourgeois]

Jason, so your Windsong 15th stays on your mind? Sorry.

I believe it is a design flaw and would be still even if the course had a membership of one. That's because there was an architect behind the course, who gave the holes definition. He infused the play with intent -- his intent.

Now, how would this not be considered a design flaw?

1. If the original design lacked definition, eg TOC and RND. Clearly not the case here.
2. If you are a deconstructionist. In that case you own the meaning and your definitions carry weight superior to the creator's (because they're yours).

Hmm, I seem to have convinced myself you are right to do this. Stand proudly on 15 tee, unsheathe your Jacques Derrida 460cc driver and let the wild deconstructionist rumpus begin! Own your meaning -- take dead aim. Wait, did I say "dead"? Let's not bring those Cartesian nuttos into this.

[Brent Hutto]

I don't know which is more horrible. Mark B's ability to come up with abstruse puns referencing ancient and hitherto forgotten trivia or my own execrable knack for "getting" them immediately.

[Mark Bourgeois]

We are screwed for the rest of the day with that jingle in our heads. Worse even than the worst of Hall and Oates.

[Jason Topp]

My case for it not being a design flaw:

1.  The play to the right carries significant additional challenges that make the choice of line off the tee a difficult decision.  The bunker left of the marker I placed is huge and squeezes the landing area because the ground slopes to the water to the right off the tee.
2.  Safety is not a problem as long as the people on the course show some basic judgment
3.  It is fun.

Is 14 at the Old Course flawed because one of the options to play the hole is down the adjoining fairway left?  

[Brent Hutto]

Mark, that's why even as we "speak" my iPhone is cued up with several Hoagy Carmichael tunes. Usually an hour or so of real music will erase even the most egregious earworm.

It's not your sweet conversation
That brings this sensation, oh no...

[Mark Bourgeois]

Is 14 at the Old Course flawed because one of the options to play the hole is down the adjoining fairway left?  

Jason, my point is that TOC is *not* defined therefore there is no particular path dictated by the architect whereas there *is* definition and a path of play dictated at Windsong 15. That is why I think your best / only real argument are points like:

2.  Safety is not a problem as long as the people on the course show some basic judgment
3.  It is fun.

Brent, is this Gitmo?

[Brent Hutto]

There's at least one hole at my home course where a case could be made for a big hitter wanting to play from the adjacent fairway for a shorter/better angle type deal. None of the guys I play with ever do it (on purpose) but when someone mishits a tee shot and decides to do it, you've got to admit it's fun to watch!

[Jason Topp]

Is 14 at the Old Course flawed because one of the options to play the hole is down the adjoining fairway left?  

Jason, my point is that TOC is *not* defined therefore there is no particular path dictated by the architect whereas there *is* definition and a path of play dictated at Windsong 15. That is why I think your best / only real argument are points like:

I am not sure I buy that point.  I do not think you can look at the hole and decide whether or not the alternate path was contemplated by the architect.  It would have been pretty obvious when building the hole.  If the architect wanted to dictate playing to the left he could have easily done so by making the hazards on 12 more formidable.  Perhaps the definition you describe is actually deception? 

[Brent Hutto]

Brent, is this Gitmo?

Oops, I believe you've stumped me on that one.

[Mark Bourgeois]

I think you are taking a harder road there, trying to prove the architect allowed for the possibility of 12 fairway being used as an alternate route -- or at least that it can't be proven he distinctly did not design for that.

Why isn't it enough to say it's not a design flaw for you because it is you who is playing the hole, not somebody else, you find it fun to do so and you're not hurting anyone? Make your own meaning, you're entitled. Also, you're more likely to win the argument than if you try to prove the architect at least allowed for it. Even if he did he'd be crazy ever to admit that, except maybe on his deathbed.

Brent: posting the lyrics to the jingle is torture, just as if they played the song in the prison yards at Guantanamo Bay.

[Brent Hutto]

Brent: posting the lyrics to the jingle is torture, just as if they played the song in the prison yards at Guantanamo Bay.

Ah, got it.

Digging deeper you could have gone with Noriega on that one.

[PCCraig]

When playing the 18th at Shoreacres...a longer par-5 that doglegs to the left...it's not the worst play to hit a hard hook down the adjourning 9th fairway which makes the hole play far shorter.

So I guess even Seth Raynor was known to create a "design flaw" or two...even on a course which many consider to be one of Raynor's finest routings??

[RJ_Daley]

I'm going with Mark here.  It is a design flaw.  Fought and Lehman are modern day architects.  Fought a member of ASGCA.  It is both a legal liability and well known principle of design not to knowingly present a hazard of an intentional shot being played into oncoming traffic from another hole.  If someone were beaned because a player thought it was a design principle of intent on the architect's part to offer that route of play as a viable alternative, I guarantee Fought would never admit to it in a lawsuit in court!!!!

Now, in practicality, it is one of the 'nearly' unavoidable circumstances of not always being able to achieve the ideal or perfect routing on a given parcel of land.  Sometimes, there is an angle or area that just has to be fit into the whole, or nothing around it works.

I feel relatively sure that the bunker on the walk away from the ladies tee on 12 is there for a reason!  It surely isn't a topshot bunker to trap a lady.  It is just not big enough to totally discourage a boldster like Jason from trying the route.  I say, just make the bunker next to Jason's green arrow next to the ladie's tee on his alternative route, a bigger on the diagonal bunker.  It serves no other purpose for players on the 12 tee than to discourage clever lawyers on 15 always looking to shoot an angle of legal technicality....   

[Garland Bayley]

What were they thinking?

Either it needs to be lengthened considerably to make it a true par 5 and approaching from the other fairway won't reach the green. Or, it needs to be made into a par 4 where drives reach the corner of the dogleg, and the green to tee walk is not backwards.

Right now it is an awkward looking design flaw IMNSHO.

[Jason Topp]

What were they thinking?

Either it needs to be lengthened considerably to make it a true par 5 and approaching from the other fairway won't reach the green. Or, it needs to be made into a par 4 where drives reach the corner of the dogleg, and the green to tee walk is not backwards.

Right now it is an awkward looking design flaw IMNSHO.

They did a nice job of designing green to tee walks on this course.  The most commonly used tee is the middle one which is directly to the side of the prior green.  The tee boxes then fan out so the walk to each teeing ground is similar.  Despite the label the tee that is marked on the picture is a 499 yard tee.

[Jason Topp]

I feel relatively sure that the bunker on the walk away from the ladies tee on 12 is there for a reason!  It surely isn't a topshot bunker to trap a lady.  It is just not big enough to totally discourage a boldster like Jason from trying the route.  I say, just make the bunker next to Jason's green arrow next to the ladie's tee on his alternative route, a bigger on the diagonal bunker.  It serves no other purpose for players on the 12 tee than to discourage clever lawyers on 15 always looking to shoot an angle of legal technicality....    

RJ:  You might be right about that bunker although there is a tee on 12 about 100 yards back from where I normally play the hole.  It is a 256 yard carry to get past that bunker from there.

[Jason Topp]

Interestingly, Fought and Lehman created a similar situation at another course in the area - Troy Burne.  The 12th is a short par five with a green jutting out into the water.  When the course hosted a nationwide tour event, several players hit it down the 14th for a better angle to attack a left pin.  I think they created an internal out of bounds the second year they hosted.

I think they called the hole a par 4 for the Nationwide event. 

http://course.bluegolf.com/bluegolf/course/course/troyburnegc/aerial.htm

[Garland Bayley]

What were they thinking?

Either it needs to be lengthened considerably to make it a true par 5 and approaching from the other fairway won't reach the green. Or, it needs to be made into a par 4 where drives reach the corner of the dogleg, and the green to tee walk is not backwards.

Right now it is an awkward looking design flaw IMNSHO.

They did a nice job of designing green to tee walks on this course.  The most commonly used tee is the middle one which is directly to the side of the prior green.  The tee boxes then fan out so the walk to each teeing ground is similar.  Despite the label the tee that is marked on the picture is a 499 yard tee.

If that is a "nice job", then why does Google Earth show it as over 100 yards walking over a rise in the ground? If Google Earth has it right, then why wasn't the tee located closer to the previous green near the top of the rise?

[Jason Topp]

If that is a "nice job", then why does Google Earth show it as over 100 yards walking over a rise in the ground? If Google Earth has it right, then why wasn't the tee located closer to the previous green near the top of the rise?

You are in firing range on the prior hole where people are hitting from a decent distance, often in heavy wind.

[Garland Bayley]

If that is a "nice job", then why does Google Earth show it as over 100 yards walking over a rise in the ground? If Google Earth has it right, then why wasn't the tee located closer to the previous green near the top of the rise?

You are in firing range on the prior hole where people are hitting from a decent distance, often in heavy wind.

According to Google Earth, that tee is equidistant from the edge of 12 fairway and 14 fairway. The difference is that on 12 the players are hitting full out long range second shots on a par 5 that is much easier to miss than the approach shots to 14. It is on the slice side of 12, and the hook side of 14. It seems to me it is in a far more dangerous position now than if it were moved closer to 14 green. The shots to 14 green are directed away from the area between the fairways whereas the shots on 12 are parallel to the fairways. I think the architects should be sued for inability to properly locate a tee.

EDIT: But it does look like they saved money on cart path construction by locating the tee where it is.
How come you're playing that cart ball course?

[Jason Topp]

If that is a "nice job", then why does Google Earth show it as over 100 yards walking over a rise in the ground? If Google Earth has it right, then why wasn't the tee located closer to the previous green near the top of the rise?

You are in firing range on the prior hole where people are hitting from a decent distance, often in heavy wind.

According to Google Earth, that tee is equidistant from the edge of 12 fairway and 14 fairway. The difference is that on 12 the players are hitting full out long range second shots on a par 5 that is much easier to miss than the approach shots to 14. It is on the slice side of 12, and the hook side of 14. It seems to me it is in a far more dangerous position now than if it were moved closer to 14 green. The shots to 14 green are directed away from the area between the fairways whereas the shots on 12 are parallel to the fairways. I think the architects should be sued for inability to properly locate a tee.

EDIT: But it does look like they saved money on cart path construction by locating the tee where it is.
How come you're playing that cart ball course?

Garland - not even close to reality.  Come out and I will show you why I play there.