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Eric Smith

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Re: The Red, then, now and the future.
« Reply #25 on: July 03, 2013, 07:15:05 PM »
Quote from: John Kavanaugh link=topic=56174.msg1303785#msg1303785
I can't believe you don't love #1.  It felt like a homage to Sand Hills.  A fitting tribute to the course and people who are responsible for everything we enjoy now.

Truth is I didn't finish the first hole the two times I played it. I'll be sure to give it a better try on the next visit!

Greg Murphy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Red, then, now and the future.
« Reply #26 on: July 03, 2013, 09:58:58 PM »
John - thanks for the structure - my impressions based on twice around the front and once on the back:

1. I did not notice the Red being extremely blind - many holes you can not see the ball land off the tee but there is almost always an intuitive hint or two off the tee where to play - depending on the wind there is good reward for challenging obvious trouble. Shots into greens there was little blindness that I can recall (especially compared to the White course), except for maybe the first hole. I like the first hole as a relatively gentle starter (it was driver, lay up, wedge both times for me). The central fairway bunker adds interest off the tee. It was a bit of a head scratcher with all that space out there that one has to walk back into the line of fire to get off the green. By far the majority of holes have tee shots that really get the juices flowing. Two exceptions. The 17th as others mentioned gives no clue where to hit and I really butchered it by guarding a bit left and ultimately found my ball many yards through the fairway in tall grass which took a couple hacks to get out. I think some sort of guide post would help and the tee shot would be fun. I am not sure I can say the same about the tee shot on 12. Wide fairways can make for interesting and fun golf, but holy cow, that tee shot is pretty bland and the landing zone where I found my ball was less than 20 yards wide. On repeated play I think a lay up might be the way to go because I don't know if it is worth trying to drive beyond the hourglass waist. All in all, though, my impression is that the Red offers very, very interesting tee shots.

2. Green contours. Make anything fast enough and it can get crazy. I don't recall making many putts but the greens seemd anything but crazy. I've played four Doak courses. Black Forest is crazy. Apache Stronghold anything but crazy. Ballyneal just fine at the speeds I encountered when there. Dismal's White has far more internal undulations and slope than the Red, and verge on crazy but unlike Black Forest where miscues are repelled to the outside, at the White it is the opposite which adds an element of forgiveness and options. Others have mentioned the 16th as being wild. I kind of think 11 is the hole where speed could make things a bit wild as I think it had a really big raised area in the back half of the green that would repel shots to the outside.

3. Favourite bunker. My first time around a course I generally don't take notes and just like that feeling of being half-lost on a bit of a quest. But the bunker on 4 really stands out.

4.  Tests driver vertically. What a great question. I am told I hit the ball high off the tee and maybe that is why I enjoyed the tee shots so much. Also for some inexplicable reason I seem to have developed some control over trajectory so I was able to hit it a lot lower when into the teeth. But my partner is a low, shortish player who depends on a lot of roll. We are typically 30+ yards apart with the driver but on the Red he was 50 yards back on many holes and after nine holes on the Red, his swing completely left him as he started to reach a little deeper and was having trouble hitting a nine iron before the round was done. Absolutely the verticality tested him. We'd played a lot of golf and he was getting worn out but hitting into the wind on nine each time he failed to make the carry even when hitting way left. Gets disappointing. That is one other hole that might use a little tweaking. I took too strong an angle the first time and found myself a bit short of the fairway. Played more conservatively the second time, thought I pured it, but still only had 10-15 yards to spare. I think that may have been the only ball of 8 tee shots that reached the fairway when we played. Angle, not verticality is the issue there but it just occurred to me how tough that tee shot played.

One other comment. I was amazed at the amount of turf around greens and tees and between greens and tees, and the generous size of most fairways, especially if it is true that the Red has half as many heads as the White. It works really well, especially liminting the number of paths. The White on the other hand is marred somewhat by the roads seamingly everywhere and does not have the same sense of fairway width, even though double the irrigation. How was the irrigation at the Red accomplished??? Gotta be a lot of lessons to be learned there.


Doug Siebert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Red, then, now and the future.
« Reply #27 on: July 08, 2013, 11:03:30 PM »
I also really liked the pot bunker on #4, because it is one of those "much less worse than it looks" kind of bunkers you feel you need to stay away from that would actually make a great place to aim if you're going to fade off it a bit. The land around isn't going to direct balls to it, it isn't like some of the pot bunkers at TOC or Muirfield that have an event horizon stretching for 10 yards around on both sides.

In my first trip around I aimed right of that bunker to stay clear of it and pulled it off the heel straight at that thing, I never saw my ball bounce so I figured it landed in there but Chris pointed out how it is angled sideways to the line of play so it is actually quite difficult to get in there. Because of the terrain, you can't really see bounces from balls that carry it (maybe when the course is really F&F the bounces will be high enough that's no longer true, but then I would have been way deep in the gunk so carrying that bunker is NOT going to be a winning strategy in the future)

Tom pulled a bit of a trick making it look rather intimidating from the tee when it is actually quite benign. There will be a lot of people playing much further right or even taking a fairway wood to stay short of it when there is really no reason to. Even if you put it in there the shot is short enough I think it should be possible to have a good play at the green (John said he was in there and didn't seem to think it was a particularly nasty shot) It is sort of the opposite of the well hidden bunkers you can't see from the tee at Carnoustie, thus don't inspire fear, but leave you with a sideways or backwards escape. This bunker intimidates you but it is really not going to be easy to hit into and while it may make birdie fairly difficult it certainly won't hurt your chances for par all that much.
My hovercraft is full of eels.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: The Red, then, now and the future.
« Reply #28 on: July 08, 2013, 11:24:19 PM »
Tom pulled a bit of a trick making it look rather intimidating from the tee when it is actually quite benign. There will be a lot of people playing much further right or even taking a fairway wood to stay short of it when there is really no reason to. Even if you put it in there the shot is short enough I think it should be possible to have a good play at the green (John said he was in there and didn't seem to think it was a particularly nasty shot) It is sort of the opposite of the well hidden bunkers you can't see from the tee at Carnoustie, thus don't inspire fear, but leave you with a sideways or backwards escape. This bunker intimidates you but it is really not going to be easy to hit into and while it may make birdie fairly difficult it certainly won't hurt your chances for par all that much.

Well, I don't expect that a lot of balls will find the bunker -- it's not all that big, and it's a long way from the tee.  But I don't expect a lot of pars to be made from the bunker, either.

Eric Smith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Red, then, now and the future.
« Reply #29 on: September 10, 2013, 05:47:07 PM »
Thought you might like to see the new bridge crossing the ravine on #10.





Another couple of pics as well..

10 green



11 green



13 viewed from 12 fairway



You've come a long way, baby.


John Cowden

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Red, then, now and the future.
« Reply #30 on: September 10, 2013, 06:12:35 PM »
Great shots, Eric.  The bridge is a nice touch.  I hope you found the speed slot over the cross bunker on 13.  Serious risk/reward. 

Will Lozier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Red, then, now and the future.
« Reply #31 on: September 10, 2013, 06:24:53 PM »
There appears to be very little buffer between fairway and the very high fescue.  While I assume that there is a great deal of width to the fairway, how easy is it to lose a ball?  Are there plans to thin out the high rough?

Cheers

Mike Hamilton

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Red, then, now and the future.
« Reply #32 on: September 10, 2013, 06:51:49 PM »
There appears to be very little buffer between fairway and the very high fescue.  While I assume that there is a great deal of width to the fairway, how easy is it to lose a ball?  Are there plans to thin out the high rough?

Cheers

For the most part the fairways are very very generous on the Red.  A few are massively wide. And you can find a ball in the deeper stuff in most places if you miss except in a few places that appear to be catching a heavy amount of moisture while the turf is being established.

I saw the first half of the bridge being lifted two weeks ago....thanks for the pics Eric.  It looks great.

John Cowden

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Red, then, now and the future.
« Reply #33 on: September 10, 2013, 06:54:28 PM »
As of ten days ago, Will, it was not difficult at all to spend a bit of time ball hunting.  I have no idea what future plans call for, but I would not be surprised if after a time the rough thins out, or is thinned out, or allowed to thin out (there's my agronomy disclaimer) much like the Nicklaus course, where balls are much more easily found and more easily played from the fescue.  The good news was I found a dozen new balls in 3+ rounds.

Chris Johnston

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Red, then, now and the future.
« Reply #34 on: September 10, 2013, 07:08:08 PM »
There are a few native area that are more thick than we would like as we are still in grow-in irrigation.  Once the turf is established to satisfaction, we will calibrate irrigation.  Like the Nicklaus course, we will bush hog certain native areas (close to greens) a time or two each season.  Like most here, I really hate losing balls sop this will be a point of focus.

It is pretty easy to find a ball in the native.  Plus, the fairways are so wide that a ball in native may well deserve to not be found.  We'll learn more this weekend when the Huns invade.

The bridge?  It's a cool addition.

Matt Glore

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Red, then, now and the future.
« Reply #35 on: September 10, 2013, 08:33:41 PM »
That bridge is very cool!  I'm really wanting to go back.
Can anyone explain 15 the short par 4?  I just didn't see the challenge in that hole?  And I really think 16,17, and 18 is a trio of the best finishing holes anywhere.  

Brandon Urban

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Red, then, now and the future.
« Reply #36 on: September 10, 2013, 09:36:34 PM »
Great shots Eric. She is looking fabulous.

I'm thinking that bridge may have come in handy this past July 1st...
181 holes at Ballyneal on June, 19th, 2017. What a day and why I love golf - http://www.hundredholehike.com/blogs/181-little-help-my-friends

John Cowden

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Red, then, now and the future.
« Reply #37 on: September 10, 2013, 11:15:33 PM »
No. 15 is a tease and a challenge and a sobriety check. Metihnks Doak is testing our golfing IQ.  So many ways to play such a short hole, but you'd do best to forget par and simply avoid the big number.  And don't get greedy!  Yes, it's a bit odd, but you better think your way to the next tee.

John Cowden

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Red, then, now and the future.
« Reply #38 on: September 10, 2013, 11:20:56 PM »
It just ocurred to me how the bridge inaugurates the last nine, the only structure one has seen on the course to that point but for a small, discreet loo.   A bit like no. 10 at Pasatiempo.  Hit your tee shot, cross the bridge, and begin anew.  

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Red, then, now and the future.
« Reply #39 on: September 11, 2013, 08:54:22 AM »
Metihnks Doak is testing our golfing IQ

He does that on the entire course.  It is amazing.  For instance, how many ways can one play 14?  Equifinality!
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Red, then, now and the future.
« Reply #40 on: September 11, 2013, 09:26:32 AM »
Don't go out there thinking that Doak won't test your driver. 

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: The Red, then, now and the future.
« Reply #41 on: September 11, 2013, 11:02:49 AM »
I am excited to play the course this weekend, in the company of +/- 60 friends and associates.

I am surprised that anyone thinks the 15th is too easy.  I chickened out at the last minute and expanded the green to the right, because I thought it was going to be too hard!  I still think lots of people will screw up hitting driver and get themselves into the moguls or down in front on the left, and miss the green from there, which is heartbreaking on such a short hole.  And considering the general difficulty of all the other holes from 13 to 18, having one half-par hole on the easy side is only appropriate.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2013, 11:05:41 AM by Tom_Doak »

Eric Smith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Red, then, now and the future.
« Reply #42 on: September 11, 2013, 11:17:34 AM »
15 = not easy. Vexing is more like it. It's like seeing the buffet through the window, all steamy and plentiful, but the door's locked.

Jimmy Muratt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Red, then, now and the future.
« Reply #43 on: September 11, 2013, 11:32:17 AM »
Having played #15 now several times in different winds, it certainly is not easy.  Even if you're very long, driver is a very risky play.  Missing just short or left leaves a very difficult pitch shot.  I have found it easier to lay back to a full wedge yardage, favoring the right side of the fairway off the tee.  It's a tough wedge shot to get close, you have to control your spin.  Perphaps those that say it's easy, mean that by playing the hole conservatively yields an easy par and that may be somewhat true.  But it certainly is hard to get the ball close to the hole and make birdie, that's where being aggressive can easily yield a bogey or worse.  I think all of that makes up a very good short par 4.

Bruce Wellmon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Red, then, now and the future.
« Reply #44 on: September 11, 2013, 03:34:26 PM »
I think 15 is a superb short par 4. If the pin is on the left side of the green it is just plain nasty. There are small targets and there are small targets, and that is a small target. From our play last weekend, there were more bogies than pars, from people that nearly drove the green. There are numerous ways to play that hole. I, for one, am still trying to figure out the best way.  

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Red, then, now and the future.
« Reply #45 on: September 11, 2013, 03:39:48 PM »
I am excited to play the course this weekend, in the company of +/- 60 friends and associates.

I am surprised that anyone thinks the 15th is too easy.  I chickened out at the last minute and expanded the green to the right, because I thought it was going to be too hard!  I still think lots of people will screw up hitting driver and get themselves into the moguls or down in front on the left, and miss the green from there, which is heartbreaking on such a short hole.  And considering the general difficulty of all the other holes from 13 to 18, having one half-par hole on the easy side is only appropriate.


Tom...

I'm very interested to hear your take on the course, specifically the maintenance meld relative to the design intent.  I, personally, thought it was damn close to spot on perfect for where it is in the grow-in cycle.  But, I would love to hear some detailed thoughts from you when you are done playing this weekend.

I love the entire course and the run from 14-16 rivals any course (per my taste) for best stretch of holes.  And sets the stage for the dramatic finish of 17 and 18.
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Eric Smith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Red, then, now and the future.
« Reply #46 on: September 11, 2013, 03:55:15 PM »
There are numerous ways to play that hole. I, for one, am still trying to figure out the best way.  

Mac just closed his eyes and imagined he was putting through the valley of sin.. ;)


Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Red, then, now and the future.
« Reply #47 on: September 11, 2013, 04:04:33 PM »
Eric...that was a fun shot!  That one actually ended up on the green.  (Second time's the charm!)

Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Bruce Wellmon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Red, then, now and the future.
« Reply #48 on: September 11, 2013, 04:19:48 PM »
If you love golf, you just have to love a shot like that.  ;)

David Davis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Red, then, now and the future.
« Reply #49 on: September 11, 2013, 04:27:43 PM »
Cool picks Eric, the bridge is indeed a great addition and saves about a mile extra walking and at least 1000 vertical ft climb. Or at least that's how it felt on that last day.

15 is a cool and fun hole, risk reward. There needs to be more drivable par 4's in the world, or I just need to start hitting it further. Out of 3 tries I managed the fringe twice. One over the humps on the top of the green. The other went down and too the left but the chip/pitch up was fun. I guess we didn't really have what I'd call wind there so if the wind came up and was in your face it would be really tough and being short left with your second shot because you misjudged the wind would be a lot scarier.

I enjoyed the course back in June, the blind shots were very fair IMO but perhaps I've played too many links courses with my eyes shut.

After a while a blind shot is no different than imagining the line on your putt.

Can't remember the pot bunker on 4 even after looking at the photos, I think because it was halfway between my drive and the green and not in play. I do know that was my least favorite hole on the course because I couldn't seem to hit either fairway.

Course looks great!
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