The Red, then, now and the future.

[John Kavanaugh]

I have had the rare pleasure of playing the Red course at Dismal from weeds to seeds to half speed.  The incarnation we experienced this weekend was the most interesting so far but hardly what we will see when the course fully matures.  I'm curious about four specific questions.

1.  How do you feel about the blind shots and where does the blindness affect your strategy?

2.  How would you describe the green contours and which were your favorites?  Do you see any greens being modified in the future because of whining from the masses.

3.  What was your favorite bunker?

4.  Are you surprised how the Red tests your driver vertically?  

[Connor Dougherty]

I have had the rare pleasure of playing the Red course at Dismal from weeds to seeds to half speed.  The incarnation we experienced this weekend was the most interesting so far but hardly what we will see when the course fully matures.  I'm curious about four specific questions.

1.  How do you feel about the blind shots and where does the blindness affect your strategy?

2.  How would you describe the green contours and which were your favorites?  Do you see any greens being modified in the future because of whining from the masses.

3.  What was your favorite bunker?

4.  Are you surprised how the Red tests your driver vertically?  

1. Like all golf courses, the blind shots are largely not a problem once you've played the hole once. I wasn't fond of the tee shot on 17 from the middle tees we played for the 5th major. Even seeing the landing area earlier in the round it's almost impossible to tell where you're going when you're down there. I was happy to see that it is much easier to see the ideal angle from the back tee. Nevertheless, an aiming post on the hill there would solve any issues.

2. The green contours were pretty severe but never out of place. I think it will be interesting to see what kind of shots can be played on the back 9 once the fairways have grown in more. A lot of the run up options really weren't in play and I wonder what kind of "Kavanaugh" shots will be able to be played into the green.

3. I love the central bunker on 4. It increases strategy tenfold on that hole. It's not the most dramatic of the bunkers, but I think it has the most effect on play of any bunker on the course. 

4. I hit the ball pretty high, so I didn't feel the vertical challenge as much, but when the wind is up, having the ability to hit your golf ball both high and low is huge there, and I could see that being a problem for the higher handicapper.

[Ronald Montesano]

I love the Red course at Bethpage. If it weren't in the shadow of the Black, it might not be called the Red.

There's another Red course?

[John Kavanaugh]

Conner,

Yes the pot bunker on 4 is fantastic.  I hit a "perfect" drive that found that one during my match but was happy to find it around 120 to the pin.  Really an easy fairway length bunker shot considering it isn't a tweener.

That bunker reminds me of the one on the first hole which torments the lay up.  I and my friends enjoyed how the bunker on the first collected almost any shot that came near.  It is consideringly more difficult because of the green site requires such a precise approach.

My personal favorite is the blind bunker on 12.  I found it but did not remember it existed until the exact moment the ball left the club.  Once again it is an easy distance from the hole.

[Sam Morrow]

John,

 First off congrats on the win, second interesting thread. You really have seen it start from nothing.

[Ronald Montesano]

What is the genesis of the name? Are there reddish features along the way? What is the original course now called?

[Sam Morrow]

What is the genesis of the name? Are there reddish features along the way? What is the original course now called?

The Nicklaus is now The White.

[John Kavanaugh]

John,

 First off congrats on the win, second interesting thread. You really have seen it start from nothing.

Thank you.  We only got a taste of what might lay beneath the surface of the Red.  Because the club is not open yet and still growing in we were allowed to put our hands on the ball through the green.  The greens were perfect scoring speeds and bunkers where you place the ball are not hazards by any means.  I am so grateful that I got my shot at glory before the course has its adult teeth and exposes the weakness of sprit and short game that age becomes.

When the greens get to speed the 16th will be a wicked par 3.  I'm getting scared just sitting here.

Ron,

How many hijacks you got left?

[Ronald Montesano]

Thank you, Sam. Those colors remind me of Sankaty Head, which I've only seen from pictures.

[Bill Seitz]

I love the Red course at Bethpage. If it weren't in the shadow of the Black, it might not be called the Red.

There's another Red course?

Streamsong. 

[Mac Plumart]

1.  How do you feel about the blind shots and where does the blindness affect your strategy?

This is a great question, John.  The blind shots impact your game differently on subsequent plays.  The first time through the obvious blindness impacts you with indecision and doubt.  Like the tee ball on 2.  You don't know what lurks over the hill on the right, but that bunker on the left is staring right at you...similar thoughts can be had on 7.

But on later plays the approach on 10, which can play down in that massive bowl, can impact how you play the hole entirely...but most likely you will enter into that bowl with no clue it is there the first time.  12 is similar.  You can knock your tee ball right down the fairway, but be blind to the green.  Hogan showed me you can hit your tee ball out there about 200 yards on 12 and have clear vision into the green by using that plateau.

And then you've got the ultimate blind tee ball mind-f**k off 17.  Where the heck are you going to hit your ball the first go round?!?!?  But again on later plays Hogan told me that playing farther right than you feel comfortable can help your tee ball catch that huge slope in the fairway and have a much easier shot into the green on the approach.

So, I think blindness impacts your game differently on different plays.  First time through it can be intimidating and confusing, but subsequent plays can unlock secrets.  I find this ideal for a members course that someone will play over and over.



2.  How would you describe the green contours and which were your favorites?  Do you see any greens being modified in the future because of whining from the masses.

I don't see the greens being modified.  They are not extreme and I don't see any whining masses at a private club like Dismal.  People come there for the thrill and the adventure.


I would describe the contours as seamlessly melding with the surrounds and fairways.  

As far as favorites, time will make this more clear...but 1 is a great introduction to the feel of the greens with that little ramp/bowl area right in the middle.  11 is simply incredible.  But 16 is world-class and is my favorite so far.

3.  What was your favorite bunker?

Man...great question.  The center line bunker on 1, right in the lay up zone, is brilliant.  The massive bunker guarding the front right of the 239 yard par 3 fifth is excellent, as just carrying that bunker will feed that ball right into the bowl green. Center line of 4 just might be might favorite, however.


4.  Are you surprised how the Red tests your driver vertically?

I wasn't surprised by that, I was surprised by how that course tests every aspect of your game.  Length, short game, putting...but most importantly your thinking.

I'm in love and impressed.  Already dreaming about my next visit.

[Brandon Urban]

I have had the rare pleasure of playing the Red course at Dismal from weeds to seeds to half speed.  The incarnation we experienced this weekend was the most interesting so far but hardly what we will see when the course fully matures.  I'm curious about four specific questions.

1.  How do you feel about the blind shots and where does the blindness affect your strategy?
     
I absolutely loved the variety of blind shots on the course. From #2 where you have a partial view of the fairway to #14 if you hit the ball a little too far left or right on your drive to the completely blind, where the hell do I hit it tee shot on #17. I don't know if I've ever thought about variety in regards to blindness, but man does the Red course have it.

2.  How would you describe the green contours and which were your favorites?  Do you see any greens being modified in the future because of whining from the masses.

The green contours were perfect. Not too big, not too small. I was actually surprised during the tour last year at how little undulation I saw in the greens, but once I saw them grown in and others with actual grass on them I was amazed at the contours. They looked completely different. My favorite: #7

3.  What was your favorite bunker?

My favorite that you can see is the small bunker guarding 6 green. It really should dictate how you play the hole off of the tee. My favorite hidden bunker is the second bunker on the left side of #16. I had no clue it was there until I hit what I thought would be an ok shot over the left bunker only to find it in the second. That's a scary shot with the Dismal River staring at you on the other side of the green.

4.  Are you surprised how the Red tests your driver vertically?  

There is definite variety in how high and low you need to hit the ball off of the tee. #17 being the prime example of high loft. Not necessarily surprised, but it is a great feature that I hadn't thought of until you metioned it.

I absolutely loved the golf course and cannot wait to see it again.

[Dan Herrmann]

1.  How do you feel about the blind shots and where does the blindness affect your strategy?
Even some holes (#2 and #4) which weren't blind the traditional sense were still blind.     I think 17 and 18 were really tough, not knowing where to aim, but that becomes much less of a factor with a few rounds.


2.  How would you describe the green contours and which were your favorites?  Do you see any greens being modified in the future because of whining from the masses.
The hole that I remember most is #1 with its hole location up on top.  In my match, I was on the green but down on the bottom in three and didn't see any way I'd get the ball in for par.  So I played it so it stayed up on top and then settled for a bogey, which won the hole.  The green contours remind me a bit of Stonewall North (the new course), which gets a fraction of play of the original, in large part due to its wild greens.  Time will tell, but I'm betting some will need to be softened once they start running 10.5+ on the stimp.


3.  What was your favorite bunker?
The one to the right of #3.  Terrifying

4.  Are you surprised how the Red tests your driver vertically?  
Absolutely.  If I were to play it again, I'd go with my 3-wood.  But then again, the wind was pretty strong when we played, and a 3-wood may have ended up being blown way off line.  I don't know if I've ever seen a course call for as much verticality off the tee as DR Red.

[Howard Riefs]

I love the Red course at Bethpage. If it weren't in the shadow of the Black, it might not be called the Red.

There's another Red course?

Streamsong. 

Not on the same level: Doral.

[John Kavanaugh]

3.  What was your favorite bunker?

My favorite that you can see is the small bunker guarding 6 green. It really should dictate how you play the hole off of the tee. My favorite hidden bunker is the second bunker on the left side of #16. I had no clue it was there until I hit what I thought would be an ok shot over the left bunker only to find it in the second. That's a scary shot with the Dismal River staring at you on the other side of the green.

Brandon,

I'm thrilled to learn that the back left bunker on 16 comes into play.  Every time I play the hole I wonder "WTF" is up with that bunker being there?!?

My playing partners kept saying that if they had known how the hole played they would have never attempted a high flying nine iron draw, like they can hit a low running eight iron fade.  Anyone hoping to post a score after a solid first 15 holes is going to have some thinking to do on that tee.

[Adam Clayman]

Whining from the masses is a good thing, isn't it?

[Mac Plumart]

Are you guys talking about that bunker just over the far left portion of the green?

If so, when the put the pin on that portion of the green...that hole will be a bear of a hole.

If you are talking about another bunker, can you point it out to me.

Thanks.

And, Adam, you got it!

[John Kavanaugh]

Whining from the masses is a good thing, isn't it?

Not in my world.  Neither course is conducive to hit and running.  I am both pleased and shocked at the chances taken by the architect of the Red.  As the course matures and speeds up the quantum entanglement between golf that we know and the golf that we expect will not be able to be understood after only one play.  Sadly, this will hold back the more simple minded golfer.

[John Kavanaugh]

Mac,

The bunker I am speaking of can not be seen in your pic.  It is like a shadow in the dirt that can only be seen overhead.

[Brandon Urban]

Mac- there's a smaller bunker behind the one on the left. Not visible from the tee. Actually not visible from near the green. You almost have to walk behind the first bunker for it to come into view. I'll look through my pictures tonight and see if I snapped one of it.

[John Kavanaugh]

I'm surprised that the bunker we are talking about is shown on the course routing.  I thought it was a happy accident.  Pretty interesting how the bunker layout evolved from this routing.  Two of my favorites, 1 and 4 mp's, aren't shown.

[Dan Herrmann]

Another (great) factor that hasn't been mentioned is the ground game you can play there.  Laura plays "old man golf" - straight and about 160 off the tee.  After landing, her ball showed really cool movement - often times into a better spot.

It's wonderful to see a course that allows the ground game to be played.

[Tom_Doak]

I'm surprised that the bunker we are talking about is shown on the course routing.  I thought it was a happy accident.  Pretty interesting how the bunker layout evolved from this routing.  Two of my favorites, 1 and 4 mp's, aren't shown.

John:

The reason that bunker shows on the map is that it had already been built, in the fall of 2011 ... as were all the bunkers on #10, 11, 13 green, 14 and 15.  The map was drawn over that winter, so we were still just thinking about where to bunker the rest of the holes.

[Eric Smith]

1.  How do you feel about the blind shots and where does the blindness affect your strategy?

2.  How would you describe the green contours and which were your favorites?  Do you see any greens being modified in the future because of whining from the masses.

3.  What was your favorite bunker?

4.  Are you surprised how the Red tests your driver vertically?  

1. My favorite golf is links golf, plus the White has a # of blind shots as well, so I embrace the blindness. It's such a fun, yet frustrating golf course and I am looking forward to learning more about it over repeated plays. For example, many of you have been talking about playing to places where you can avoid playing the next shot blind. Where I was hitting my approach shots from on 2, on 10, on 12...those places are not fun at all! Again, looking forward to learning more about the golf course..

2. As Brandon mentioned, I too thought many of the green contours were really sort of vanilla when they had just been seeded. Now I'm like, WOW, what a difference a growing season makes! In time, they will become even more diabolical, but subtle enough that the decision to go with bentgrass to match the other course was the right one. These greens even now running at what, 8ish? are really pure. My favorites were 2, 3, 4, 7, 8, 10, 11, 14, 15, 16 & 17.

3. Favorite bunker is the little one back left behind 4 green. You can just see it to the right in this picture.


4. No, not at all surprised. Again, the 'vertical golf' found out on the Nicklaus course has me expecting these sort of shots over here as well. The holes on the Red are definitely not routed through baby piles of sand.

The tee shot at 17 IS certainly a unique one, an opportunity to hit the game winning home run over the green monster. Sort of the yin to 18 White's yang (from the upper tee).

[John Kavanaugh]

2. As Brandon mentioned, I too thought many of the green contours were really sort of vanilla when they had just been seeded. Now I'm like, WOW, what a difference a growing season makes! In time, they will become even more diabolical, but subtle enough that the decision to go with bentgrass to match the other course was the right one. These greens even now running at what, 8ish? are really pure. My favorites were 2, 3, 4, 7, 8, 10, 11, 14, 15, 16 & 17.

Now we know why so many architects rebuild greens so soon after completion.  I too thought they were bland before the grow in.

I can't believe you don't love #1.  It felt like a homage to Sand Hills.  A fitting tribute to the course and people who are responsible for everything we enjoy now.