Rustic Canyon (Hanse / Shackelford / Wagner) - A Photo Tour!! - Hole 18 Posted

[Lynn_Shackelford]

Thanks for doing the photo tour. Rustic Canyon has had a lot of GCA discussion in the past, but it's nice to get additional perspectives. 

It's interesting to see comments on the first couple of holes and how much more there is to be revealed through repeated play.

One suggestion - you might also mention Jim Wagner in the heading.   

Good point John.  As for the bathtub bunker, doesn't be confused, just avoid it!
Alex Miller's reply #21 is pretty good, and thus not much to be added.
I had lunch with Gil the day he had just shaped #2 and he said he was happy with the way it came out.  So fasinating how a guy with imagination and a sand pro can just do that.

[Jason Thurman]

Forget the small bunker. The fifth green is by far the most confusing feature on number 2 for the first time player.

My group guessed right (by guessing left), but I doubt we'd have been the first if we had guessed wrong. I've never wished a course had a routing map so strongly before.

[R_Paulis]

It's great to see a new review of RC. Brings back great memories and thoughts of returning to the game after a two year absence.

[JimB]

I would disagree slightly with this.  As you are hitting down the canyon, the green really doesn't slope from back to front.  It appears to, but doesn't.  It is one of the most deceptive in this regard on the course, and one of the most difficult to read.  When arriving in your car one must look for where the hole is cut.  If it is cut front left, there is no reason to attempt reaching it in two or going left on your second shot.  Either one will take a 3 or a 4 out of the equation.  Front left is best reached by a short wedge from the right side of the fairway.  Any short 3rd shot must land short of the hole, as the ball will release going down canyon.

Will borrow from what I said on the "It's uphill but down grain" thread. The up canyon/down canyon effect is one of the great features of RC.

Relative to what Mike said, I found the same difficulty in reading greens at the back 9 at Rustic Canyon.  Anyone else?

During my last play our group had this discussion, but not just the back nine. Everything goes "down canyon". Two of us had been at Valley Club a couple days before where everything goes "down valley". It was a nice comparison and hard to get used to despite knowing.

[DMoriarty]

Jason,

The course definitely isn't designed (or maintained) for one time players, which is fine by me.
..............................................................................................

One of the neat but subtle features on the 2nd is the diagonal "trench" mentioned by Alex.  It is really just a small ditch or swale, probably an old road or something, and it runs diagonally from the  beginning of the fairway on the left, all the way to right of the green side bunker.  Hardly noticeable and it is just fairway so there is no definite, defined cost for being it, but the golfer who wants the best position must play aggressively over the indentation and toward the OB otherwise the indentation redirects drives to the right, which is generally less favorable.

As for the green most of it slopes right to left, but part of the right side falls right so from the middle ridge.  When I screw up my drive (often) or am playing hickories and when the pin is on the right, I will sometimes play try to play my second shot down the 5th fairway to leave a chip between the bunkers right, and it is actually a little easier than laying up left and trying to navigate over the ridge.

[David Kelly]

Im confused as to the purpose of the small bunker facing the wrong way.

The way the bathtub bunker was originally maintained it was possible for your drive on #2 to land in it.  I think I was in it twice in the first dozen or so plays at RC but haven't been in it in over 10 years now.  Two weeks ago my ball should have been in it but the extra high rough stopped it from going in.

More than on almost any other hole taking the right line off of the tee is important on #2. If I knew I could get a nice lie I would always rather be in the left rough than in the middle of the fairway.

[Joe Perches]

#2 is definitely a good hole.

It also leaves me anything from a 3 iron to a 9 iron second shot depending on firmness and wind direction when I hit a decent drive.
I like that variety.

Additionally, it might be the front 9 hole least affected by flood/fire damage on the course in the 10 years since RC opened.

[R_Paulis]

The variety of options makes RC an all time favorite. Pre-flood(s) there were even more options off some of the tees. I think 11 and 18 had multiple landing areas. And was not 7 drivable? Or at least reaching the fairway over the wash was a real option.

[David Kelly]

The variety of options makes RC an all time favorite. Pre-flood(s) there were even more options off some of the tees. I think 11 and 18 had multiple landing areas. And was not 7 drivable? Or at least reaching the fairway over the wash was a real option.

#7 was the hole most adversely affected by the flood.  It had one of the most subtlety diabolical greens I've ever played.

[David_Elvins]

Mark,

I can't add much to what the local experts are writing but thanks for starting the thread.  A fantastic course, and one that hasn't been discussed for a while.  

Playing there with a couple of GCA guys was a real treat.  

[Pete Lavallee]

Forget the small bunker. The fifth green is by far the most confusing feature on number 2 for the first time player.

My group guessed right (by guessing left), but I doubt we'd have been the first if we had guessed wrong. I've never wished a course had a routing map so strongly before.

During KP III Gib Papzian suggested planting a tree to block the view of the 5th gren from the 2cnd tee. Tommy was dead against that, comparing the situation to being fooled by the 5th flag on #13 at TOC. I think a tree native to a California riparian area would be a good idea. I believe something was planted to help obscure the 5th green but it's not big enough yet to do the job.

[David Kelly]

Forget the small bunker. The fifth green is by far the most confusing feature on number 2 for the first time player.

My group guessed right (by guessing left), but I doubt we'd have been the first if we had guessed wrong. I've never wished a course had a routing map so strongly before.

During KP III Gib Papzian suggested planting a tree to block the view of the 5th gren from the 2cnd tee. Tommy was dead against that, comparing the situation to being fooled by the 5th flag on #13 at TOC. I think a tree native to a California riparian area would be a good idea. I believe something was planted to help obscure the 5th green but it's not big enough yet to do the job.

NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO. 

My God, why the hell would you want to obscure the 5th green?  It wasn't an accident or a mistake that Gil put it where it is. 

Some small trees were planted years ago by the 6th tee but nothing will ever be planted while I'm alive that will hide the 5th green. 

[Mark Saltzman]

The third hole, at 315 yards, is likely out of reach for most, but playing downwind there is sufficient temptation to 'go for the glory'!  The golfer is given the opportunity to play a safe tee shot to the right, but for the preferred angle of approach into the green the golfer must challenge a diagonal ridge that crosses the fairway.






The approach as seen from the left:




And the principle's nose bunker complex guarding the area 40 yards short-right of the green.  The golfer who bails out after trying to drive the green will be left with the dreaded long bunker shot:




One of the hole's primary defences is this deep bunker long and left of the green.  Playing an approach from the right carries with it the greater risk of finding this menacing hazard:

[DMoriarty]

An "options" hole where there really are three or four legitimate options, even for the golfer who does not (or cannot) go for the green. For those choosing to lay up, different angles of approach can vary by up to 90 degrees.  

[Phil McDade]

OK, that's pretty much the first Principal's Nose bunker complex described (and shown ) on this discussion board in the past five years that accurately reflects the actual strategy of that design concept.

[R_Paulis]

Can't wait until the photos and discussions for 12. A seemingly simple tee shot with a deliciously difficult green and apron. Oh how important it is to be the right distance for a solid approach.

[Dan Grossman]

Hmm....a course a know a little bit, although a little late to the party.

On #1, I think Ran's comment regarding fairway width is misleading. Because of the angle, you need to either play a left to right drive or challenge the right environmental area if you want to hit driver. It is very easy to reach OB left. I think this hole is actually done a disservice by being #1 in the sense that most golfers are not yet comfortable enough with their swings to go for the green in two on their second shot of the day. It's a bit scary to go for it in two as there are no collecting bunkers.  With no wind, the green can be held with a wedge without too much   of an issue. The hole is most interesting if you are tempted.

#2 is probably one of the more difficult driving holes on the course, BUT ONLY AFTER YOU HAVE PLAYED THE HOLE.  It looks benign from the tee, the fairway is huge!  But, the hole is MASSIVELY easier if you challenge the OB left. From the left, it is a pretty easy approach as the green is very receptive. From the right, it is semi-blind approach over a yawning bunker and the green repels shots to the left. Fantastic hole with an extremely interesting green, especially back pin positions.

Three is one of my favorite holes on the course. I think it is quite interesting off the tee.  Should I go for it, or layup?  If I layup where?  If you decide to layup, I actually prefer the right side of the fairway.  It leaves a pitch down the spine of the green that begs for the ground game.  You can land the ball 20 yds short of the green and have it bound on and run out, as the green slopes front to back.  I will usually hit driver off the tee and give it a go.  I typically play the blue tees (308 yds), but I can get there with a well struck drive if the fairway is firm.  (Despite not really being a long hitter) You just need to clear the centerline bunker with a slight draw and it will hop on.  If you miss right however, that is bad news. The bunker is tough and so are the pitches.  The left bunker is better, as long as you aren't stymied by the cactus in the middle.

The green has a lot of contour, especially at the back.  Most folks are still confused by the canyon on the green and tend to misjudge the speed.  In my experience, there are a lot less birdies on this hole than you might think / expect for the yardage.
 

[Bill Seitz]

Reminiscent of the 13th at Kingsley.  While it has options, as David mentioned, I can't ever envision myself doing anything but going right at the green.  This is for two reasons. First, on most days I think I could carry the center line bunker, and even if the ball doesn't run out to the green, that's a good leave.  Second, with most center line bunkers, I feel I spray the ball enough that the place my ball likely won't end up is a good target.

I like the bunker long and left, mostly because it keeps a downwind good drive from rolling OB.  Really a great hole after a breather first, and a non-pushover second. 

[Lynn_Shackelford]

If it is my 3rd hole of the day, I always layup left.  It has a larger landing area than appears and leaves me with a 100 yard wedge lining up straight with the green.  If it is my 12th hole of the day and the prevailing wind isn't too strong, I will try driver.  A classic short par 4, where a driver puts a score of 2,3,4 or 5 into the equation.

[Mark Saltzman]

I am going to presume that the 170 yard 4th hole is one that has changed since Ran's 2002 review.  Ran notes that from the "tee, the golfer sees an uninterrupted green path from tee to green, hence what could be so hard about these holes?"  As is clear from this first picture, a bunker filled ridge cuts across the hole 50 yards short of the green, blocking the once uninterrupted path.






The golfer is given ample room to bail out right, but contouring in the bailout area, combined the two-humped spine that runs diagonally across the green, mean that recovery from the right (or anywhere really) is a tall task.




Little forgiveness is shown for tee shots that land long of the green...

[David Kelly]

Yes, #4 was changed a little after the fire and flood.  The cross bunker was built at that time and the bunkers to the left of the green were made bigger and became much more in play.  The green changed a little bit but is substantially the same. The new cross bunker means that you can't see the cup from the tee.

I liked the original incarnation a little better because as Ran said in his review it looked so easy but it played a lot harder. 

[DMoriarty]

I agree with DK and also probably preferred the look of the original if only because it looked so deceptively easy.  But the bunker left is a big improvement, as is the giant bunker/waste area long/right (it used to be unplayable gunch back there.) And the cross bunker makes bouncing it in a bit more interesting for those so inclined on windy days when the ground is hard.

It is an excellent and unusual hole as is, but there was something very special about the old hole where everything was very much in front of you yet still completely out of grasp.   Some days it is still my favorite par three on the course.

[Dan Herrmann]

Thanks for this thread.  It's very cool to compare Gil's work at RC to his Philly-area courses (one of which I'm a member of).

A lot of the bunker shaping certainly is consistent (a good thing".   I like what Hanse did with the what seems to be flatter land than what we have in Pennsylvania.

If you're interested, you can see photos of "my" course here:  http://myphillygolf.com/uploads/bausch/FrenchCreek/index.html

(French Creek was opened in 2003 and I think it was his third course in Philly after Applebrook and Inniscrone)

[David Kelly]

A lot of the bunker shaping certainly is consistent (a good thing".   I like what Hanse did with the what seems to be flatter land than what we have in Pennsylvania.

If you're interested, you can see photos of "my" course here:  http://myphillygolf.com/uploads/bausch/FrenchCreek/index.html

French Creek has more rumples than Rustic Canyon but Rustic has a lot more elevation change than French Creek. It is just that it is all one way. It is almost a 300 foot drop from the back of the 13th green to the 4th green at RC.  The "down canyon" effect at RC is very unique and as has been stated the golfer has to consider it on almost every shot and putt. 

The way it is now the 4th at RC is a mini version of the 17th at French Creek (a hole I love) with the deceptive cross bunker a ways back from the hole and a long area in front on which to bounce the ball into the green.

French Creek has one huge advantage over RC, because it is private it get a lot less play and it gets a lot more TLC.

[Mark Saltzman]

The 5th holes is the second of three par-5s on the opening nine.  At 570 yards, slightly uphill, and playing into the prevailing wind, most golfers will be trying to shorten the hole wherever possible.  Such is the genius of the hole where not once, but twice, the golfer is asked to play a semi-blind, bold shot over scrub or wash to cut off yardage; and on both occasions, the cautious golfer is given more than ample room to tack his way around the trouble.  From the tee, the ideal line is well to the right, on a line where the fairway cannot be seen:




On the second shot, the golfer must carefully choose on which line he is to play over the wash.  The shortest line to the green is well to the left, though there is ample room to the right (thanks to the shared fairway with the 2nd) to miss.






The green is dominated by a steep drop-off short and left: