[mike_beene]

I would love to fix slow play but to make it part of the walking debate misses the reality that slow players,be they of a riding or walking variety,didn't change personalities when they got to the course.The odds are that they are either rude self absorbed people who could care less about others,or they are clueless in golf and other things perhaps due to not observing their surroundings( much like a former colleague of mine who refused to learn the customs of other countries we did business in). Maybe I am way off base, but we are asking a lot to think the mode of getting around the course will fix these problems. .Does that Dr Katz guy still appear?

[Doug Braunsdorf]

OK, for starters let's stipulate that if the course is choked with 8-minute tee time foursomes playing at a 5-hour pace no one person's pace of play matters at all. Not walkers, not riders. So let's look at the situation where there is the possibility of playing quickly.

Slow play is not caused by playing golf slowly. Nor is it caused by walking or riding slowly between shots.

Slow play is caused by slow players doing everything under the damn sun EXCEPT playing golf and moving to the ball.

A fast player in a cart (by himself) will cover most normally laid out courses faster than a fast player walking. Because if all you're doing is hitting the shots then moving directly to the ball the moving is faster in a golf cart.

But give a slow player a cart and he now has one more damn thing to use for wasting time. He can steer his cart in endless circles  through the tall rough"looking" for his ball. He can enjoy a leisurely snack or take his time drinking his fourth beer of the round. He can rummage through his 50-pound cart bag full of shit he doesn't need to play golf. He can drive over to where other players are contemplating their shots.

The slow player who is walking has fewer time-wasting options. Especially given that any aimless wandering, meandering, circling back, etc. has to be done on Shanks Pony and he gets tired by the end of the round anyway.

Golf carts are an amplifier. They make the fastest players faster and the slowest players slower. As such, they simply increase the friction on a busy course where nobody is playing at exactly the pace they expect to. A cart also gives someone a chance to ZOOOOOM ahead of a walker leaving the tee and park 200 yards up the fairway to wait for him, providing ample time to redirect all his frustration with the general suckiness of the day's experience on that DARNED WALKER HE'S BEEN WAITING ON ALL DAY.

Brent, well said.  A reasonably well-known, locally based architect and I played one of his courses yesterday am.  Most all of you know who I am speaking of.  We walked as a twosome, with trolley, starting at 8am, as did the threesome behind us.    I am happy this course gave us the option of walking or trolley and did not force us into a cart, as it's a good walk.  We finished the first nine in a little less than 2 hours and could have been done in under four if we didn't have to wait on a slow foursome in front of us.  In carts.  On 10, we found an older couple in a cart that they paired up with us; they were as quick as could be expected and did not hold us up at all; hit ball, go to next shot, repeat.
 OTOH, the players in front of us held us up all day, exhibiting all 'bad' forms of behavior evidenced by Brent. 

[Lou_Duran]

I would love to fix slow play but to make it part of the walking debate misses the reality that slow players,be they of a riding or walking variety,didn't change personalities when they got to the course.The odds are that they are either rude self absorbed people who could care less about others,or they are clueless in golf and other things perhaps due to not observing their surroundings( much like a former colleague of mine who refused to learn the customs of other countries we did business in). Maybe I am way off base, but we are asking a lot to think the mode of getting around the course will fix these problems. .Does that Dr Katz guy still appear?

One of the most disappointing things about getting old is the loss of optimism and hope as one moves along the learning curve.  I got to listen to NPR a bit while driving through the Great Plains recently and was amused (ruefully) about various discussions on change.  Everyone seems to want to change most everything- arrest global warming/"carbon pollution", how we pay (or don't) for our medical needs, how we provide money for kids to go to college while suspending the laws of supply and demand which has driven tuition costs into the stratosphere, etc.  Of course, if the "good, smart" people- our benevolent change agents- would only be allowed to act on our behalf, utopia is attainable, the earth will be in balance, no one will need a golf cart, and we'll all be playing 3-hour rounds.

Then reality sets in.  As Mr. Beene suggests, personalities, attitudes, culture, etc. are highly resistant to change.  A slow golfer riding will ALWAYS play faster than a slow golfer walking with one possible exception, when carts are restricted to the paths.  A person who cares about the speed of play and his companions' enjoyment of the round will ALWAYS play faster riding than walking.  As I observed not too long ago, a very pleasant, engaging individual, primarily consumed with doing his "thing"/playing the protagonist in his own movie, can greatly dampen a round on a great course for those who value playing at a moderately brisk pace (say 4 hours with no waiting).  Being that changing other people's behavior has proven to be a mostly futile undertaking, the only thing I am left with is adapting my own attitude about it.  Sadly, I have a ways to go in this area (as my riding companion, having been subjected to my whining, can attest).  Mea culpa.

 

[Bob_Huntley]

 In earlier threads in this discussion was that many a club's objection to trolleys was that it was so plebian; rather like allowing the wearing of jeans.

The most egalitarian of the gems is The Valley Club of Montecito, you see members wearing shorts and pushing trolleys, I am sure there are others, but not one comes to mind.

Bob
 
 

[A.G._Crockett]

Lou,
Not to pick the nit because I agree fully with your basic premise slow golfers find ways to play slowly regardless of mode of transport, but I would like you to consider lessening the absoluteness of these two statements:

"A slow golfer riding will ALWAYS play faster than a slow golfer walking with one possible exception, when carts are restricted to the paths.  A person who cares about the speed of play and his companions' enjoyment of the round will ALWAYS play faster riding than walking."

ANY golfer, fast or slow, will be faster IN A STRAIGHT LINE FROM ONE SHOT TO ANOTHER riding than walking.  Inarguable, just like a Ferrari being faster off the line than a Civic.  On that we agree.

BUT there are a number of instances in which walking vs. riding pace evens out regularly, even when it is not "cart path only".  Cart paths are often some distance from tees, hazards, and greens AND on the opposite side of same from where the ball lies or the next shot will be played.  Walkers have the option to go in a more or less straight line, while there may be a long walk to the ball, back to the cart, and to the next shot.  

For instance, often walkers will be waiting on the next tee for fast players in carts to arrive because, after putting out riders had to walk 30 yds. back to their cart, then circle the green, park and walk 20 yds. to the next tee while the walker went straight off the back of the green to the tee.  Happens all the time.

And, of course, the reality is that when play on a golf course is slow, the speed at which one is able to move from where they just played to where they are going to play their next shot becomes less relevant.  The Ferrari, by getting off the line more quickly will simply manage to arrive at the next red light more quickly than the Civic.  

[Bill_McBride]

 In earlier threads in this discussion was that many a club's objection to trolleys was that it was so plebian; rather like allowing the wearing of jeans.

The most egalitarian of the gems is The Valley Club of Montecito, you see members wearing shorts and pushing trolleys, I am sure there are others, but not one comes to mind.

Bob
 
 

Including Freddy Couples whom I've seen doing just that a couple if times!

[Thomas Dai]

Slow play is poor form but we should all always remember that some folk can't play golf at all without the help of trolleys, electric trolleys or buggies. For those who don't like them, please remember this, for you yourself could be in this position one day. Many already are.

All the best.

[Lou_Duran]

A.G.-

My absolutes are highly predicated on the individual player AND a relevant range of courses as well as playing conditions.   I recently played a course that has long, circuitous cart routes to protect its fescue fairways and green surrounds.  In that case, it is conceivable that a walker of similar playing ability could beat me to the green, depending on where his ball lies and whether he drops his bag close to the exit point to the next tee.  That advantage is lost on tees and greens requiring the walker long climbs whereas cart paths are provided nearby, and, in particular, as the round wears on and the walker wears out.  But this course is an exception.

The key is not walking or riding but the mindset and disposition of the players.  Just like hunting for golf balls.  In a recent round, I chased foul balls for my partners all day long.  I lose a ball just off the fairway in relatively light rough and only my cartmate helps while the other two are chatting away in the cart nearby.  These are good guys, extremely pleasant to be around, but not particularly interested in what the other guy is doing.  This way of being, more than anything else is, in my opinion, what is killing the game.  To the extent that few of us can have our own course, golf is a communal enterprise where we should be more aware of everything and everyone around us, and be particularly aware of the courtesies and etiquettes of the game.  Instead, golf seems to be succumbing more and more to the tragedy of the commons.

[C. Squier]

I would guess that cart riders occupy both the fastest and slowest medal stands.  But I'm not concerned with playing in 1:30, nor 5:30.  Let's talk about which group most competently gets it done in 3:30....I would hypothesize walkers have a better record.

[JimB]

I have been pushing ever since I saw the first Sun Mountain speed cart. I had mostly walked and carried up to that point and as I aged my right shoulder would start cramping late in the round from the lifting. Was glad to get the bag off my shoulders. When I brought my cart to a local daily fee they were happy to have me use it. Not long after I joined a private club and luckily they have a fleet of carts for use. The carts are irrelevant to speed of play. I often play a twosome in 2:30 with both of us pushing. The bulk of the foursomes will be pushing and most rounds are under 4:00. The only reason I could think of for a club not allowing them would be to support a caddie program. I only have one problem with seeing push carts and that is when someone new to the three wheelers starts using it the old pull cart way and the front wheel is propped up in the air. Now that looks silly!

[Duncan Cheslett]

The most egalitarian of the gems is The Valley Club of Montecito, you see members wearing shorts and pushing trolleys, I am sure there are others, but not one comes to mind.

You will find members wearing shorts and using trolleys at pretty well every golf club in the UK, particularly on a weekend like we're having just now.

Trolleys are ubiquitous over here; I would estimate that rounds played in the UK go something like as follows;

Electric Trolley            50%
Push or Pull Trolley      20%
Carry                         25%
Buggy (Cart)                4.999999%
Caddy                           .000001%



I remember both my grandfathers using golf trolleys in the 1960s, and I'm pretty sure there wasn't anything new or original about them then. I don't know, but I suspect that the almost total demise of the caddy after WW2 brought about the birth of the trolley for those golfers who didn't fancy carrying their own bag or weren't able to.

Buggies or carts of course, have never really caught on over here until the last few years when disbiliity equality legislation has meant that clubs have to at least allow them and normally now offer a few for hire.

As Sean says, it does seem odd that no-one has attempted to flood the US market with affordable electric trolleys for those who see golf as an opprtunity for a little physical exercise rather than for stuffing their faces with more food and beer and getting even fatter.

[archie_struthers]

 

Hey Duncan , from all of us fat , beer swilling Americans.  Why golf , why not just run , bike and swim ?   

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