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Wade Whitehead

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What difference does it make?
« on: July 01, 2013, 09:55:58 AM »
Watching the US Womens Open, I kept thinking: "Wouldn't Inbee Park be winning, no matter the golf course they're playing?"

She hit driver down the middle, hit the green, and lagged it close on just about every hole I saw.

She would have won on any golf course.

Does the course even matter?  If so, what difference did it make this weekend?

WW

Mark McKeever

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Re: What difference does it make?
« Reply #1 on: July 01, 2013, 09:57:01 AM »
Her swing looks so smooth....I can't imagine her missing any shots.

MM
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Brent Hutto

Re: What difference does it make?
« Reply #2 on: July 01, 2013, 10:07:37 AM »
Well you can stretch a course until she can't reach many of the greens in regulation strokes.

And you can create greens and pin positions where from the middle of the green there's only a slim chance of two-putting.

Do both of those and a dominant player like Ms. Park will be reduced to a just a better-shot-executing member of the rabble rolling the dice on a tricked-up golf course. She might still win but so might any number of no-names who get a few breaks and have a hot week with the putter.

A pretty fundamental question of championship course setup, innit? Do you reward "execution" in the sense of making one near-perfect swing after another for four days and hardly ever making a mistake? Or do you deliberately add a large ration of extra randomness to force even the best player in the game (indisputably) to scramble frequently?

As I say, I'm not sure if they contested this championship on the men's setup at Merion that the result would be any different. It isn't like Park is totally unequipped to scramble for pars or hack out of rough. She'd still be the odds-on favorite. Didn't they always say Nicklaus's game around the greens was mediocre at best? He came out on top at least as frequently on tough courses as easier ones...although his power in the iron game relative to his peers was his main weapon so the parallel breaks down a bit.

Ronald Montesano

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Re: What difference does it make?
« Reply #3 on: July 01, 2013, 10:08:09 AM »
Did anyone recognize how great that knockdown iron she hit into 10 was? She blasted it under the breeze so well that it had the entire commentary team stunned at her prowess.
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JimB

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Re: What difference does it make?
« Reply #4 on: July 01, 2013, 11:20:01 AM »

She hit driver down the middle, hit the green, and lagged it close on just about every hole I saw.



Plus she one putt 40% of the greens!

Rich Goodale

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Re: What difference does it make?
« Reply #5 on: July 01, 2013, 11:33:56 AM »
This young woman might have given Tiger some serious competition at Hoylake 2006.
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Wade Whitehead

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Re: What difference does it make?
« Reply #6 on: July 01, 2013, 03:36:45 PM »
Can anyone present the case that Ms. Park would not have won on any other particular golf course?

If not, are we conceding that architecture may have little or nothing to do with the outcome of a competition?

WW

Brent Hutto

Re: What difference does it make?
« Reply #7 on: July 01, 2013, 03:48:37 PM »
I think when you have a head-and-shoulders above the others dominant player, it is possible force "architecture" (really course setup to a great extent) into the equation as a way of introducing randomness. But if she's playing as well currently as it to all intents appears then the only reasonable way for "architecture" to contribute is to stay the hell out of the way and let the best player win.

Wade Whitehead

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Re: What difference does it make?
« Reply #8 on: July 01, 2013, 03:52:35 PM »
So, the better a player is, the less architecture matters?

WW

David Bartman

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Re: What difference does it make?
« Reply #9 on: July 01, 2013, 03:54:52 PM »
As someone who has seen all these women play golf, inside the ropes, Inbee Park is one of the best putters in the world.  Outside of that, that is huge, she doesn't do much all that impressively.    She is one of the few binkers on the LPGA tour that will be competitive on any style of golf course.  

However, if the LPGA tour wants to start seeing more marketable players winning and finishing in the top of tournaments, they need to change their theory on course set up.  

They need to play the par 5's shorter, Under 500, so that the longer players , traditionally European and N. American, can easily reach the greens in 2 shots.  

They need to lengthen the par 4's over 400, for the same reason as above, let length be an advantage.  Playing 360 par 4's is just a wedge contest, as is 530 yard par 5's.  

They also need to widen the fairways and shorten the rough so that length becomes a factor.  The shorter hitters are going to be hit the fairways no matter how small you make them, so you must allow the longer hitters to hit them more readily and not have much penalty when they don't to allow the longer hitters to have an advantage.  

Inbee is such a great putter, it may not matter for her, she may only win by 2 or 3, but you guys just watched one of the longest courses on tour this year and every year, not a regular tour event for sure, even with the tees up on most days.  

They frequently play courses under 6500, if they start playing courses 6700+  the scores would go up and the players in the top 30 would change a bit.


Rich- I sure hope you were joking about 2006 Hoy Lake, Tiger beat Inbee's score by 18 over 4 days, Inbee finished 2nd last year in Ladies British at Hoy Lake, on a much shorter golf course .  In fact 47 men beat Inbee's final score over the 4 days.  

Men vs Women isn't close.  The best woman golfer in the world isn't as good as the best high school boy.  

Still need to play Pine Valley!!

Brent Hutto

Re: What difference does it make?
« Reply #10 on: July 01, 2013, 03:55:09 PM »
No, the bigger the difference between the best player and everyone else the less architecture matters.

If for some reason Justin Rose were to tee it up in my club's stroke-play Championship next month, should the architecture cum course setup matter? Or shouldn't he win by 10 strokes no matter what course the competition uses?

Richard Choi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What difference does it make?
« Reply #11 on: July 01, 2013, 04:06:03 PM »
I don't know about making a difference, but yesterdays round might have been the finest display of putting I have ever seen. Literally every putt she hit burn the edges when they did not go in. I have never seen anything like it.

Carl Rogers

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Re: What difference does it make?
« Reply #12 on: July 01, 2013, 04:09:13 PM »
so in the Women's game, there is not a "horses for courses" element??
I do not know if there is or there is not.  There does not seem to be.

Would a different Architecture make them play faster?
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Charlie_Bell

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Re: What difference does it make?
« Reply #13 on: July 01, 2013, 09:16:18 PM »
Carl,  I think the consensus is that there is a horses-for-courses element in the women's game, as there would be for any group including my own favorite foursome. At the moment, though, Inbee is playing so much better than anyone else that no reasonable course set-up will negate her advantage. 

Patrick_Mucci

Re: What difference does it make?
« Reply #14 on: July 01, 2013, 10:14:39 PM »
The course played short and the holes were cut in fairly benign positions because the weather forecast was dire and memories of # 7 at Shinnecock danced in many a head.

Hard to say who would win if the course was longer and the holes more difficult, but, she would seem to be the favorite.

David_Tepper

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Re: What difference does it make?
« Reply #15 on: July 01, 2013, 10:32:16 PM »
Given that Ms. Park's final round score was both her worst on an absolute basis and likely relative to the field over the four days, it would be hard to say the chances of her winning were improved by the shorter course setup on Sunday. She is simply playing better than her peers by a sizable margin, regardless of the course or course conditions.  

Also note that, despite the short length and benign pin positions, only 4 players broke par in the final round.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2013, 11:07:09 PM by David_Tepper »

Jud_T

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Re: What difference does it make?
« Reply #16 on: July 01, 2013, 11:15:21 PM »
Sure she may win all 5 majors this season, but can she sell cars, watches and pinup calendars?
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

David_Tepper

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Re: What difference does it make?
« Reply #17 on: July 01, 2013, 11:20:45 PM »
"Sure she may win all 5 majors this season, but can she sell cars, watches and pinup calendars? "

Jud T. -

Not sure about the pinup calendars, but my guess is Miss Park will sell plenty of cars, watches, etc. in South Korea and elsewhere in Asia.

DT

Philip Caccamise

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What difference does it make?
« Reply #18 on: July 01, 2013, 11:35:17 PM »
Sure she may win all 5 majors this season, but can she sell cars, watches and pinup calendars?

No, Inbee isn't all that attractive. But she speaks very good English and is easily the best women's player since Annika. I don't see why she can't sell cars or watches or golf clubs. I really enjoy watching her play- and no, the course design/setup doesn't matter when you're hitting it and putting it as pure as she is right now.

RJ_Daley

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Re: What difference does it make?
« Reply #19 on: July 01, 2013, 11:56:34 PM »
It seems to me that she won it on superior putting, which includes a knack to see breaks and have a touch that can handle more extreme contoured greens.  I think in the women's game, they all tend to be more accurate drivers, so perhaps wider FWs in a certain zone of say 235-270, with more hazards and pinched in from 270-300.  Thus, the shorter but accurate women stand a better chance than the strong drivers that have a smaller ideal spot to play to.  With more width, and more architecture that incorporates more choices off the tee setting up an array of interesting angles to these greens and surrounds that also have those choice approaches from varied angles, I would think that it would make the tee to green game more democratic and more likely for greens in regulation and then it becomes a putting contest.

It seems to me the irony of the greens at Sebonack were they have too much more architectural variety and designed contouring and surrounds features.  So, with her superior savvy, Inbee dominated on the more intricately and extremely designed greens.  Flatter greens would be more dumbed down and more players would have putting success with elimination of stress needing touch and imagination that Inbee appears to have in spades. 

But, even she will have bad putting days and give the rest a chance.
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archie_struthers

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Re: What difference does it make?
« Reply #20 on: July 02, 2013, 11:30:51 AM »
 8) ;D 8)


 In the final analysis , it almost always comes down to the flat stick.  While Nicklaus didn't chip great , his putting was otherworldly

Bart Bradley

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Re: What difference does it make?
« Reply #21 on: July 02, 2013, 06:52:35 PM »
Wade:

I think under the circumstances of the week, you are correct.  Almost any course would have resulted in the same winner.  Likely true the week Tiger won the US Open at Pebble too.  But it is not true every tournament. 

Insightful post Wade.

Bart

Jim Nugent

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Re: What difference does it make?
« Reply #22 on: July 03, 2013, 12:29:52 AM »
8) ;D 8)


 In the final analysis , it almost always comes down to the flat stick.  While Nicklaus didn't chip great , his putting was otherworldly

Archie has touched on one of the keys.  Nicklaus didn't have to chip that much, because he hit so many greens.  GIR + otherworldly putting = Great scoring.  And that is what Inbee did last week.  She was 2nd in putts taken (in a virtual tie with 1st), but also top ten in GIR. 

I think in the women's game, they all tend to be more accurate drivers, so perhaps wider FWs in a certain zone of say 235-270, with more hazards and pinched in from 270-300.  Thus, the shorter but accurate women stand a better chance than the strong drivers that have a smaller ideal spot to play to.

If I understand you right, you're saying longer drivers should also have to be more accurate.  This has never made sense to me.   

Rich Goodale

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Re: What difference does it make?
« Reply #23 on: July 03, 2013, 03:59:08 AM »

Rich- I sure hope you were joking about 2006 Hoy Lake, Tiger beat Inbee's score by 18 over 4 days, Inbee finished 2nd last year in Ladies British at Hoy Lake, on a much shorter golf course .  In fact 47 men beat Inbee's final score over the 4 days.  

Men vs Women isn't close.  The best woman golfer in the world isn't as good as the best high school boy.  



Semi-joking, as usual, David.  You forget that in 2006 Hoylake was playing about 6000 yards given that the fairways were rock hard.  Tiger won by driving with a 4-iron most of the time.  If Inbee is a straight as she seems, don't you think that she could outdrive Tiger's 4-iron on a course set up like Hoylake in 2006?

PS--of course, mechanically, the best HS golfer can outplay any woman golfer (and just about everybody on this board too), but would he (or she?) be able to do so under severe pressure?  I'm not so sure....
Life is good.

Any afterlife is unlikely and/or dodgy.

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Sean_A

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Re: What difference does it make?
« Reply #24 on: July 03, 2013, 04:07:05 AM »
With Tiger hitting irons off the tee the Hoylake was anything but short for Tiger.  He was other-worldy with his 4-6 iron approaching that week. That was certainly the best display of iron shot-making I have ever witnessed.  Outdriving Tiger or not, and I think not because Tiger played to fat parts of the fairways that week (just where Inbee would be driving for), Inbee would have been limp toast that week.  

I agree with Wade.  I don't think the course matters so long as players don't let it get in their heads.  Of course, we all know courses get into golfers heads!   

Ciao
« Last Edit: July 03, 2013, 04:10:42 AM by S_arble »
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