Here we go again......

[Garland Bayley]

I bet if you dig into Salmonds background you will find a prostitute or two and plenty of porn on his computer.

Whats your point?

Tony is absolutely correct.  The R&A runs the show and determines which club will be invited to host the Open.  If the R&A doesn't like certain policies of a club it should not extend an invitation to host the Open.  The ball then is squarely in the court of the club.  For an outsider to hammer on about a club's membership policy (so long as it is within the law) is the height of arrogance.  Would you try to control who can and cannot enter the home of your neighbour as well?   

Ciao

Dang! Abe Lincoln had it wrong. He should have left those southern plantation owners alone. How arrogant of him!

[Jud_T]

Sean,

Do we really have to rehash this again?  The club is free to do as it pleases until it holds and profits from, directly or indirectly, an event in the public domain.  

[RJ_Daley]

While some traditionalist people honestly believe that it is a private club, and they can have any membership rules and restrictions they want, the tide of history is not going in that direction.  The right to be exclusive is a sound one in that context.  But, it is against the evolution of consensus society practices and customs to continue to hang on to the olden times values and customs.  It just IS going to change, and some hangers on to the old ways will be dragged kicking and screaming into a more modern understanding.  Some can derisively say they aren't for all the 'forced diversity' call it 'socialism or totalitarianism' whatever, and claim it is an assault on our freedoms.  They will hold on to their closely held beliefs that it is their right individually and collectively to form an organization to associate with whomever and whatever other class of people they wish and exclude others as they deem in their custom and practice.  

But the very fact that the equality laws have been promulgated in our modern society is proof that the world is changing, and the mechanisms of representative government have put new understandings in place via codes and law.  The majority public seems no longer willing to support in ancillary ways like use of public treasury to provide services to an event put on by a club that excludes half of the human race based on sex.  That is just fact.  The law says they are exclusively men and can be so if they want at the HCEG, and the R&A can still apparently decide not to continue to offer an honoray membership to the Principal of St. Andrews because that person is currently a woman.  But, are those same groups and clubs entitled to use any of the public's services paid for in taxation by half the population which are women, or add extra costly services to support and manage their events?  The Open Championship is held at a place not open to membership inclusion of women- slightly more than half the world population.  It is still OK to exclude them as the law and discussion states below - just not to ask for public services support to inflate the prestige and influence of the exclusive club.  It seems no longer 'honourable' company to keep in the modern context.  IMHO of course.

http://www.englandgolf.org/documents/Equality_Act_2010_Golf_Final__Aug_2010_.pdf

particularly this:

j. Our club is a gentlemen’s club where women are not admitted to any form of
membership. Are we now required to admit women to the club?

No. Genuinely single-sex clubs are not affected by the Act, and may continue to
restrict their membership to one sex. However, if members of the opposite sex are
permitted to join associate categories of membership or are invited as guests, then
the club needs to comply with the Act.

[Ross Tuddenham]

If a woman pays the substantial green fee to play muirfield do they have access to the same facilities(or at least equal services) as a man paying the same green fee?

If women are provided a service that is offered in a lesser form based on sex does that not break equality laws in some way?

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/part/3/crossheading/provision-of-services-etc

[RJ_Daley]

Mr. Tuddenham, could another question along the same lines be asked;  how is the income from the green fees paid by a woman or man treated for revenue reporting purposes?  Is there any special treatment of income based on corporate private club organization?  I have no idea of that answer and how Great Britain and Scotland treat such revenue from green fees charged at a private club.  Does anyone have information on that to enlighten us?

[Bob_Huntley]

I realize that we must move in to the modern world, but can anyone see what would happen at the Royal Kabul Golf Club if this was put to the vote?

Bob

[Sean_A]

Sean,

Do we really have to rehash this again?  The club is free to do as it pleases until it holds and profits from, directly or indirectly, an event in the public domain.  

You are beefing with the wrong folks.  Talk to the R&A, they are the decision-makers in this case unless you believe the club should voluntarily stand down as hosts. 

You are beefing with the wrong folks.  Talk to the Beeb, they can refuse to televise (or as you say put the tournament in the public domain) the event if held at a single gender club.  Afterall, they are using public money to provide programming.  I would be upset if the Beeb chose this hardline, but I would fully accept it as reasonable considering where the money comes from.  In fact, I am somewhat surprised a brewha over this hasn't already happened.

Ciao

[Jud_T]

This is deja vu of the Augusta thread from a year ago.  I realize laws and customs are different in GB&I,  but like it or not boys, the times they are a changing.  It's simply a question of when, not if.

[Sean_A]

This is deja vu of the Augusta thread from a year ago.  I realize laws and customs are different in GB&I,  but like it or not boys, the times they are a changing.  It's simply a question of when, not if.

You are up early - where are you playing?

Ciao

[Jud_T]

This is deja vu of the Augusta thread from a year ago.  I realize laws and customs are different in GB&I,  but like it or not boys, the times they are a changing.  It's simply a question of when, not if.

You are up early - where are you playing?

Ciao

Nowhere unfortunately, just an early riser.  Still recovering from 11 rounds in 4 days at Kingsley last weekend!

[Mike Sweeney]

I realize that we must move in to the modern world, but can anyone see what would happen at the Royal Kabul Golf Club if this was put to the vote?

Bob

Bob,

I am a member of Kabul Golf Club. We are not a "Royal" golf club, yet but we have allowed women players since the 50's:

http://www.kabulgolfclub.org/id3.html

"Women were an important part of the culture of this club, with Ladies' Leagues being organized from day one.  The worn and weedy Ladies' Tees are still a feature of the course.  The peace and prosperity of Afghanistan was reflected in the vitality of the Kabul Golf Club."


http://capitalpartners.filmannex.com/blog/bid/152925/Update-on-NATO-TV-Afghan-women-use-volleyball-to-bring-peace-to-Afghanistan

My business partner is Roya Mahboob, who is an Afghan refugee born in Iran, and she would be extremely disappointed in me if I did not vote to allow women, in anything. She would call her friend Sheryl Sandberg and have me and my golf club atlas buddies thrown off of Facebook:

http://time100.time.com/2013/04/18/time-100/slide/roya-mahboob/



Here is Roya with Dylan and Fereshteh Forough in Newport, Rhode Island on the way to see Newport Country Club:



She is not rich, she is not powerful (yet), but she has a will power that is inspirational and she has broken down many barriers including some in my own head. If she or Fereshteh thought it would make a difference, they would learn how to play golf and join the R&A, but someone has to give them the opportunity.

Submitted with love,

Mike Sweeney

[Sean_A]

If she or Fereshteh thought it would make a difference, they would learn how to play golf and join the R&A, but someone has to give them the opportunity.

Are you suggesting women don't have the opportunity to play golf? 

Ciao

[Niall C]

I see two practices of custom and behavior that are questionable in a modern context that continue to confound the public citizen just trying to get along in our complex and too often priveleged and bifurcated society.  One is the anachronism of exclusively organized private clubs along membership lines of gender or race discrimination also hosting and perpetuating the standing and prestige of hosting national championship events.  Stodgy and traditional they may be, but it is only a matter of time that the 'tory conservative mentality' of fiercly maintaining their old exclusivity based on gender or race will fall.  It fell at Augusta primarily because in our modern context of beliefs and mores that the idea of all male or all white clubs is anathema to our evolving sensibility on such matters.  And, it will fall in the old British Empire as well.

The second thing that continues to become maddeningly disgusting to the everyday citizen trying to get along and play fair by the rules of governance and taxation and such where we are all expected to give our fair share, is the notion that these priveleged legislators and officials have the gall to spend the public's treasure, needed greatly to assist real life health and welfare or even business-job creation endeavors, to be wasted on some pompous ass or asses faux representing the notion of a governmental ruling class presence at national or prestige events, as if they confer some aura of officialdom approval for the event.  The event, if a great championship as The Open or Ryder Cup does not need the official imprimatur of some gasbag legislator or official to confer public sanction or approval to the event.  The people in attendance and following it around the world is prestige enough!!!

Let these asses pay their own freight if they desire to enjoy witnessing the sporting spectacle, just like the rest of us commoners!  After all, they more able than we to afford the cost of admission.  The trouble is that none of the priveleged officials spending the public resources have to sacrifice and make a prioritized decision of whether to spend their resources on an occasional entertainment vs a pressing domestic need like a repaired roof or brake job, etc.  When the common person decides to spend a little on themselves, they usually give up something else.  These asses give up nothing yet spend what you have contributed to the public treasury in honesty to pay your fair share, expecting it to be spent on common needs of which there are many, always.

A pox on all their politician houses and special official box seats and booths.  

If I believed in idolatry I would have a golden statue made of you. Great post!

Great post ?!? Only if it's a spoof.

Niall

[Mike Sweeney]

If she or Fereshteh thought it would make a difference, they would learn how to play golf and join the R&A, but someone has to give them the opportunity.

Are you suggesting women don't have the opportunity to play golf? 

Ciao

No.

[Niall C]

Mark - where did I say the R&A created the mess? Granted, I acknowledged what Tony said about the R&A choosing the venue but that was about it.

I don't think there' s any mess. Just people trying to create a mess based on some misguided notion of a diversity crusade

Brian

More power to your elbow, you're one fo the few talking any sense on here. What we have here is an opportunistic politician trying to court the female vote. His interest isn't in golf, or even equal opportunities, he's simply trying to boost his ratings.

I listened to a radio interview he gave yetserday where he suggested the R&A should urge HCEG to admit lady members or alternatively to set up a womans club that could use Muirfield alongside HCEG ! While you get your head round the perverse logic of having an all male club urge another all male club to let in lady members or alternatively set up another "sexist" organisation in the name of equality, let me tell you he was also quite happy for the R&A to remain all male and for the likes of St Regulus to be all female as long as everyone can play the TOC. So there's the answer, HCEG to offer even more visitor slots than they already do that can be booked by either male or female which is the case at the moment   If we still had a journalist worth a toss in this country they would have a field day with this nonsense.

Mark

Re Royal Troon - they have a ladies club attached that plays the Portland Course and indeed the ladies club has its own clubhouse. If they have any playing rights on the old course then they would be limited.

Kelly

I have been a member of an all male golf club and I'm certainly not rich. You don't need to be rich to be a member of a golf club over here.

Niall

[Jud_T]

Peter Dawson was grilled in this morning's press conference about the issue.  Is this the last Open at Muirfield?

[Thomas Dai]

Not sure about the rest of the globe, but we in the UK use the phrase 'silly season' to describe that part of the summer where there are no major national or international events taking place but the media still have to fill the pages of their newspapers, their TV schedules and their radio airwaves.

I can understand some folks unhappiness with this issue but if this were a different time of year or something of major significance were happening nationally or internationally just now, this story would maybe receive a very, very small amount of press time. Maybe even none at all.

For example, if a royal baby were born this afternoon, and I'm not saying that is something of major national or international significance, but if that happened the resulting media fest would put the sexism/golf/Muirfield debate to sleep for this year.

The world works in strange ways.

All the best

[Keith Grande]

I see two practices of custom and behavior that are questionable in a modern context that continue to confound the public citizen just trying to get along in our complex and too often priveleged and bifurcated society.  One is the anachronism of exclusively organized private clubs along membership lines of gender or race discrimination also hosting and perpetuating the standing and prestige of hosting national championship events.  Stodgy and traditional they may be, but it is only a matter of time that the 'tory conservative mentality' of fiercly maintaining their old exclusivity based on gender or race will fall.  It fell at Augusta primarily because in our modern context of beliefs and mores that the idea of all male or all white clubs is anathema to our evolving sensibility on such matters.  And, it will fall in the old British Empire as well.

The second thing that continues to become maddeningly disgusting to the everyday citizen trying to get along and play fair by the rules of governance and taxation and such where we are all expected to give our fair share, is the notion that these priveleged legislators and officials have the gall to spend the public's treasure, needed greatly to assist real life health and welfare or even business-job creation endeavors, to be wasted on some pompous ass or asses faux representing the notion of a governmental ruling class presence at national or prestige events, as if they confer some aura of officialdom approval for the event.  The event, if a great championship as The Open or Ryder Cup does not need the official imprimatur of some gasbag legislator or official to confer public sanction or approval to the event.  The people in attendance and following it around the world is prestige enough!!!

Let these asses pay their own freight if they desire to enjoy witnessing the sporting spectacle, just like the rest of us commoners!  After all, they more able than we to afford the cost of admission.  The trouble is that none of the priveleged officials spending the public resources have to sacrifice and make a prioritized decision of whether to spend their resources on an occasional entertainment vs a pressing domestic need like a repaired roof or brake job, etc.  When the common person decides to spend a little on themselves, they usually give up something else.  These asses give up nothing yet spend what you have contributed to the public treasury in honesty to pay your fair share, expecting it to be spent on common needs of which there are many, always.

A pox on all their politician houses and special official box seats and booths.  

Bully!!!

[Keith Grande]

While I detest the prospect of an entity discriminating against gender or race, I do respect the right of private property.  When I pass a local Lucille Roberts (all female gym membership), I don't get all up in arms - I get the point.  Sometimes you feel more comfortable with members of your own gender. 

[Jud_T]

The train is speeding down the track.  If Dawson chooses not to get out of the way of it he will be run over.  Sounds like a win/win proposition to me...

[Anthony Butler]

a fair penalty would be to NEVER allow them to host the Weetabix British Women's Open

Someone on Morning Drive mentioned that next year's Women's Open is in fact scheduled for RSG.

[Tony_Muldoon]

Today
""But I'd like to stress we're not so insular as to fail to recognise the potential damage that campaigns like this can do to The Open Championship. And it is our Championship Committee's responsibility to do what is best for The Open and to maximise the benefits which The Open brings, not just to golf, but also to the local area. And, by the way, in huge funding for women's golf."


This is the first chink of light I've seen.  He may just be beginning to comprehend that this row is not in the best interests of Golf.  Single sex clubs are fine by me, but if you want to change the perception that Golf is socially backward you don't have 3 Opens in 5 years at all Male Clubs.  Wouldn't tackling that perception be in the best interests of Golf, which is the nearest thing the R&A have as a mission statement?


Enjoy this Open Hon. Co.members and Troon members too, you will have some serious thinking to do if you want to have another.   And if you don't, that's fine too.

If there is a rota then RSG are next pencilled in for 2022 with an announcement due about 2019.  One disadvantage of bundling the single sex clubs together so closely means you have to really grasp the nettle to start issuing all those invites again.  6 years is a long time in sexual politics.

[Lou_Duran]

British political big-wig comes out swinging against Muirfield holding the Open Championship.

Se:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scotland/10148105/Alex-Salmond-Staging-Open-at-Muirfield-gives-impression-women-are-second-class-citizens.html

Comments welcome.

Bob  

Bob Huntley,

You are a bad man.  Quit stirring the pot and get back on the golf course.  Wolf is a lot more fun, even playing poorly, than getting the class envy types all riled up.  So much angst out there.  And such a large supply of social engineers.

I remember you once counseled that brevity is the soul of wit.  A preacher recently offered four thoughts for daily living on the subject:

1. Let your words be few.  2. Let your words be true.  3. Let your words be gentle.  4. Let your words be life-giving.  Boy, 1 and 3 are particularly hard for me, but I am trying.

Me, I am going to enjoy The Open and let the social justice experts do their thing.  Go Jordan Spieth!  

I say it is hypocritical to lobby for inclusion in the Olympic movement and all that involves whilst at the same time to place your premier completion on courses run by exclusionary Clubs in 3 out of the next 5 years.  I say nothing against all male clubs, in fact I am a member of one, but the R&A have created this mess and it is a mess.

Hypocrisy.  Sounds odious, evil.  Yet, as we are wired to pursue our self-interest- the survival instinct- who amongst us is not a hypocrite?  It is a defense mechanism enabling us to get on our imperfect lives while holding others, particularly those we disagree with, to the impossible standards that we don't even approach.  Unlike envy, which is indeed the most grievous of the Seven Deadly Sins, hypocrisy is mostly benign, particularly if one has a modicum of self-awareness.

[Bob_Huntley]

I realize that we must move in to the modern world, but can anyone see what would happen at the Royal Kabul Golf Club if this was put to the vote?

Bob

Bob,

I am a member of Kabul Golf Club. We are not a "Royal" golf club, yet but we have allowed women players since the 50's:

http://www.kabulgolfclub.org/id3.html

"Women were an important part of the culture of this club, with Ladies' Leagues being organized from day one.  The worn and weedy Ladies' Tees are still a feature of the course.  The peace and prosperity of Afghanistan was reflected in the vitality of the Kabul Golf Club."


http://capitalpartners.filmannex.com/blog/bid/152925/Update-on-NATO-TV-Afghan-women-use-volleyball-to-bring-peace-to-Afghanistan

My business partner is Roya Mahboob, who is an Afghan refugee born in Iran, and she would be extremely disappointed in me if I did not vote to allow women, in anything. She would call her friend Sheryl Sandberg and have me and my golf club atlas buddies thrown off of Facebook:

http://time100.time.com/2013/04/18/time-100/slide/roya-mahboob/



Here is Roya with Dylan and Fereshteh Forough in Newport, Rhode Island on the way to see Newport Country Club:



She is not rich, she is not powerful (yet), but she has a will power that is inspirational and she has broken down many barriers including some in my own head. If she or Fereshteh thought it would make a difference, they would learn how to play golf and join the R&A, but someone has to give them the opportunity.

Submitted with love,

Mike Sweeney

Mike,

If the Taliban can shoot a girl in the head for attending school what must the penalty be for playing golf?

Bob 

[Mike Sweeney]

[

If the Taliban can shoot a girl in the head for attending school what must the penalty be for playing golf?

Bob 

Bob,

My Italian business partner always says, "Let's give the Taliban a WebTV and let them make money and be regulated by the advertising industry like us " He is Italian and he understood that his Grandmother chose chocolates from the Americans over genocide from the Nazis.

I can't disclose too much as Roya is back in Afghanistan now for Ramadan. If it was not for her Father, life would be different. She would remind you so much of your "granddaughter" that we played MPCC with too many years ago.

My wife has questioned many decisions over the last year, and then she saw Zarlasht:

http://www.filmannex.com/movie/we-believe-in-zarlasht/35146

Here is the filmmaker who discovered Z:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yazmany_Arboleda

I can't disclose her name as she does not wear a headscarf, but we have a woman blogger in Afghanistan that could make $12,000 this year. Here is the average income of an Afghan family today:

http://data.worldbank.org/country/afghanistan

PS. I support the right of private clubs to stay private and have male or female only memberships. I simply believe the R&A, which in my mind is a public entity, should not use host sites that discriminate.

Here is the woman's football (soccer for my John Kavanaugh type friends ) that we sponsor in Kabul: