Odds on Rio golf, 2016?

[Jon Wiggett]

Mike,

I am sorry for being so dense but why will the players not be able to profit from being Olympic Champion? I would have thought that would be worth a hell of a lot in sponsorship deals.

I do not think the field will be any significantly weaker than the USPGA on the whole and though your point about certain countries not being able to field 4 decent players maybe correct it is not relevant as some will only field one and others none. Indeed I suspect apart from the US only Ireland, Australia, GB&I and possibly Germany will field 3+ players.

Jon

[MClutterbuck]

Mike,

why do you think golf will be any different to tennis? Just about all competitors at the Olympics are money driven.

Jon

Jon,
IMHO golf should not be in the Olympics anyway but  the guys will not be able to profit from it as their AGENTS would wish and with PGA Championship close by etc it will not be a big deal for the American pros....plus if it is country driven there will be some participants who could not win a club championship here in the States.  Watch some of the world am events and who shows up....I have worked Latin America for a while and a long time ago worked some in Brazil and so far I haven't seen a country there that could put 4 world class players together....

What is your point with LatAm players? First, they just need 2 good players. Argentina has more than a handful of PGA and Europeantour players and have done well in team tournaments. Ask Tiger/Duval. If you were referring to amateurs, check out recent WATC scores in Japan, team and individual. Plus the rest of the world competes as well.

[Tom_Doak]

To clarify my previous post, most countries get two players in each of the men's and women's competitions.  There is a loophole that allows countries to field up to four players if they are also among the top 15 players in the world ... but if one country had 5 or 6 players in the top 15, the last ones would still not get in.  [Fair or unfair, that's the way the Olympics works for other sports, too.]

I am glad to hear the course will be finished.  There has been so much angst about it in the media, but delays are hardly unusual in this business [or in Latin America].  I've been working on four projects since we interviewed for the Rio job -- Dismal, China, Bordeaux and Tara Iti -- and three of them took almost as long as the Rio project to complete, due to permitting or money or "China".  Slow is the new normal for golf course development.

[Mike_Young]

Mike,

I am sorry for being so dense but why will the players not be able to profit from being Olympic Champion? I would have thought that would be worth a hell of a lot in sponsorship deals.

I do not think the field will be any significantly weaker than the USPGA on the whole and though your point about certain countries not being able to field 4 decent players maybe correct it is not relevant as some will only field one and others none. Indeed I suspect apart from the US only Ireland, Australia, GB&I and possibly Germany will field 3+ players.

Jon

Jon,
It seems to me that most big time players have agents who receive 20% of a players endorsement deals or other appearance type deals.  When a player is gone from home as much as the average tour player and something like the Olympics or Ryder Cup does not pay enough.  I seriously doubt the American basketball team gained any notoriety from participating in the Olympics over their NBA teams.  JMO

[Jaeger Kovich]

Considering basketball is a team sport with an entirely different contract structure that isn't a great analogy.

NBA players do often have individual endorsement deals, but generally they are team employees... Tennis players, however, are a similar independent contractor type where weekly performance, travel and individual endorsements are all legit factors... I seem to remember most of the big tennis stars playing in the Olympics.

Golf at the Olympics also does offer its players significantly less impact on health/conditioning/risk to injury during competition than most sports. However the players take 100% risk if something goes wrong... Paul George will still getting paid by the NBA's Pacers this year.

[MClutterbuck]

Mike,

I am sorry for being so dense but why will the players not be able to profit from being Olympic Champion? I would have thought that would be worth a hell of a lot in sponsorship deals.

I do not think the field will be any significantly weaker than the USPGA on the whole and though your point about certain countries not being able to field 4 decent players maybe correct it is not relevant as some will only field one and others none. Indeed I suspect apart from the US only Ireland, Australia, GB&I and possibly Germany will field 3+ players.

Jon

Jon,
It seems to me that most big time players have agents who receive 20% of a players endorsement deals or other appearance type deals.  When a player is gone from home as much as the average tour player and something like the Olympics or Ryder Cup does not pay enough.  I seriously doubt the American basketball team gained any notoriety from participating in the Olympics over their NBA teams.  JMO

There should be ample opportunity to market players at the Olympics. Even for the best players it sets them in a different context and playing for a gold medal. I doubt any agent would go against participation in the Olympics. And I am sure a lot of players will actually enjoy doing something different and hanging out with other athletes.

Unfortunately the golf format is not the best.

[Jon Wiggett]

Mike,

I am sorry for being so dense but why will the players not be able to profit from being Olympic Champion? I would have thought that would be worth a hell of a lot in sponsorship deals.

I do not think the field will be any significantly weaker than the USPGA on the whole and though your point about certain countries not being able to field 4 decent players maybe correct it is not relevant as some will only field one and others none. Indeed I suspect apart from the US only Ireland, Australia, GB&I and possibly Germany will field 3+ players.

Jon

Jon,
It seems to me that most big time players have agents who receive 20% of a players endorsement deals or other appearance type deals.  When a player is gone from home as much as the average tour player and something like the Olympics or Ryder Cup does not pay enough.  I seriously doubt the American basketball team gained any notoriety from participating in the Olympics over their NBA teams.  JMO

Mike,

I can understand your point now. As others have said basketball is firstly a tem sport and secondly except in the US it is really a fringe sport in the national awareness of most countries. I could not tell you the name of a single British player or European come to think of it though I know there is at least one German who has done okay but hardly a sport you can market outside the US.

I would say golf is similar to tennis which has done okay since it became an Olympic event.

Jon

[Jeremy Broom]

Not sure if anyone saw this from Geoff Shackelford, went up late last night:

http://www.geoffshackelford.com/homepage/2014/10/27/rio-judge-5-days-to-decide-to-move-3-olympic-course-holes.html

JB

[RJ_Daley]

What an embarrassment for Rio and the country in general.  All the advanced negative information of how it is virtually impossible to get anything done without pay-offs and extortion, etc.   It is like the old squeeze play, 'I can sell you this car at this price but only for the next couple of hours'. 

Gil ought to take his loss now, and get as far away from these goofs as he can.  He has done many a excellent project already, and his reputation will not suffer one bit.  In fact, he might be thought of as a stronger man in that he would not take this crap from these two bit corrupt judges and bureaucrats. If they kill this project now and for the olympic games, then miraculously re commence the project by some corrupt and influential resort owner in Brazil, no one should patronize the obvious corrupt practices project, no matter how good Gil's work may turn out to be in some successor version after these rotten procedings.

As many on the commentary following the article say, the hell with the idea of golf in the Olympics. 

[MClutterbuck]

What an embarrassment for Rio and the country in general.  All the advanced negative information of how it is virtually impossible to get anything done without pay-offs and extortion, etc.   It is like the old squeeze play, 'I can sell you this car at this price but only for the next couple of hours'. 

Gil ought to take his loss now, and get as far away from these goofs as he can.  He has done many a excellent project already, and his reputation will not suffer one bit.  In fact, he might be thought of as a stronger man in that he would not take this crap from these two bit corrupt judges and bureaucrats. If they kill this project now and for the olympic games, then miraculously re commence the project by some corrupt and influential resort owner in Brazil, no one should patronize the obvious corrupt practices project, no matter how good Gil's work may turn out to be in some successor version after these rotten procedings.

As many on the commentary following the article say, the hell with the idea of golf in the Olympics. 

While corruption is rampant in Brazil and other Latin countries, environmental lawsuits are common in Brazil and do not necessarily signal corrpution. It is as likely to be a pseudo environmental/left wing group just being stupid, but judges do hear them out. I have not clue what is realy behind this single case, but I would not assume corruption would be involved in any solution.

[RJ_Daley]

Well, if that order gets suddenly reversed, let's just say I wouldn't be surprised to see the Judge and all his posse sitting in the choice event box seats at the major venues of the games.  What next?  Maybe replace wrestling as one of the original events with high hurdle shakedowns?   

[Wayne_Kozun]

I do not think the field will be any significantly weaker than the USPGA on the whole and though your point about certain countries not being able to field 4 decent players maybe correct it is not relevant as some will only field one and others none. Indeed I suspect apart from the US only Ireland, Australia, GB&I and possibly Germany will field 3+ players.

The weay I read it - given the current rankings only the US would have more than two pleayers in the field as the US is the only country with more than two players in the top 15.  And given the current rankings neither Phil nor Tiger would qualify - the US players would be Furyk, Bubba, Fowler and Kuchar.

Other than the US the highest OWGR ranking of a third ranked golfer in his own country is Luke Donald at #34 (assuming Rory and GMac are Irish rather than UK).  The third ranked Aussie is Leishman at 44.

Phil would be the highest ranking player not to qualify.

Its kind of like curling in the winter Olympcs.  About 18 of the top 20 teams globally would be from Canada but we are only allowed to send one team.

[Jon Wiggett]

Wayne,

as I understand it any player inside the top 15 qualify unless there are 4 fellow country men a head of them. That would mean if it were to be decided today that the US would have 4 players though 4 others inside the top 15 would miss out. On top of that Australia would have 2, Ireland, Spain, Sweden and GBI would each have 1.

Including these top 15 players the field will be made up of 60 players chosen through the rankings where no country may have more than 2 players above the rank of 15 and no more than 4 players in total. Therefore the US will have 4 as could Australia with Ireland, Spain, Sweden and GBI having a possible maximum of 3.

Countries such as India and Austria could possibly also have a player involved.

Jon

[Wayne_Kozun]

I interpret it differently.  I don't think it is the top 15, subject to a max of 4, plus two from each country. I read it as two from each country except you can have up to four if they are in the top 15. But the description is confusing. Aus already has two from the top 15 s that's all they get.

Here is what I found:

The IOC has restricted the IGF to an Olympic field of 60 players for each of the men’s and women’s competition. The IGF will utilise the official world golf rankings to create the Olympic golf rankings as a method of determining eligibility. The top-15 world-ranked players will be eligible for the Olympics, with a limit of four players from a given country. Beyond the top-15, players will be eligible based on the world rankings, with a maximum of two eligible players from each country that does not already have two or more players among the top-15

[Jon Wiggett]

Could be Wayne, depends how its read. Guess we'll find out at some point.

Jon

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Weiskopf skipped the RC to go hunting in 1977.  I don't necessarily look badly on players opting to allow others "the honor".  Perhaps we would seat better teams if we selected only the best players who truly wanted to compete.

That is half the story, the other haolf is that he did tell the PGA BEFORE the season started that we would not be avaialble for selection.

[Wayne_Kozun]

For some countries the golf event in the Olympics will be a big deal.  Ireland has won a total of 9 Gold medals in its history and only one in the last four games (2000-2012).  I have to think that Rory winning a gold for Ireland would be a big deal.

[Tim_Cronin]

Well, if that order gets suddenly reversed, let's just say I wouldn't be surprised to see the Judge and all his posse sitting in the choice event box seats at the major venues of the games.  What next?  Maybe replace wrestling as one of the original events with high hurdle shakedowns?   

Exactly. If Chicago had won, this would not be a problem at all. Well, not until the indictments. But the golf course (Medinah and Olympia Fields were very interested) would be ready!

[Josh Stevens]

What an embarrassment for Rio and the country in general.  All the advanced negative information of how it is virtually impossible to get anything done without pay-offs and extortion, etc.   It is like the old squeeze play, 'I can sell you this car at this price but only for the next couple of hours'. 

Gil ought to take his loss now, and get as far away from these goofs as he can.  He has done many a excellent project already, and his reputation will not suffer one bit.  In fact, he might be thought of as a stronger man in that he would not take this crap from these two bit corrupt judges and bureaucrats. If they kill this project now and for the olympic games, then miraculously re commence the project by some corrupt and influential resort owner in Brazil, no one should patronize the obvious corrupt practices project, no matter how good Gil's work may turn out to be in some successor version after these rotten procedings.

As many on the commentary following the article say, the hell with the idea of golf in the Olympics. 

While corruption is rampant in Brazil and other Latin countries, environmental lawsuits are common in Brazil and do not necessarily signal corrpution. It is as likely to be a pseudo environmental/left wing group just being stupid, but judges do hear them out. I have not clue what is realy behind this single case, but I would not assume corruption would be involved in any solution.

I agree.  I have worked in Brazil for some years, and yes there is corruption, but this smacks more of red tape.  There is a very solid and very active legal system in Brazil . - they are almost as litigious as Americans, it is something of a national sport.  The judiciary is actually pretty cleanish and fiercely independent.  I would not be surprised if there was actually a real issue here.  The government no doubt waved its arms and said its all approved but more than likely blatantly ignored some environmental regulations that were in place.  Someone who hates gold has picked up on that and the courts are upholding it as they would be required to do in the US.  Law is the law. So I wouldn't be too fast to blame the courts, blame the bureaucrats.

[BHoover]

I'm not really interested in Olympic golf and this course debacle only reaffirms my lack of interest. Generally speaking I don't get too excited about any Summer Olympic events; I do enjoy some of the Winter Olympics,  specifically the hockey tournament.

But what I don't and cannot understand is why golf made its return in Brazil. Why not the London games? The courses were already there and it seemed to make too much sense not to have golf there. But common sense and the Olympics does not seem to go hand in hand (same with FIFA and the European Ryder Cup venue selections).

[RJ_Daley]

The games have just gotten worse every cycle with commercialism, professionals participating in what should be amatuer sport and freaky corrupt governance.  In terms of a top world ranked pro golfer, I can't really see an upside of wasting two weeks in a tour season to bother with the hype and imbalanced method of selecting a top competitive field while missing out on whichever actual paying tour stops may be oposite the olys those weeks, if you want a chance at a payday.

Why a person would want to risk the downside of having your creative work quality and name associated with what convoluted outcomes seemed quite probable to ensue when mixing the IOC with a notoriously fouled up civil governance where you have to rely on an efficient local process to have any chance to have your work succeed seems like more risk than a architect with the up and coming and already good reputation Gil has earned to have been worth it, IMO.

[Ronald Montesano]

Sunny days ahead?

http://www.golf.com/tour-and-news/rio-wins-legal-battle-over-olympic-golf-course?sct=hp2

[Kyle Franz]

http://sports.yahoo.com/…/brazil-judge-rejects-request-to-h…
Very sensible. Hopefully this is the end of these questions surrounding the project.
I have a great piece of advice for anyone from the environmental side of this discussion who might come across this post. Take it from a person heavily involved as a member of the design/construction team for the course... I would encourage you to shift focus away preventing course completion and focus on the REAL BEST POSSIBLE GOAL for the property -- making sure it stays a golf course!
As long as it does not succumb to another development after the Olympics -- real estate or otherwise -- it will remain a great urban environmental reserve.
Gil's design and the projects maintenance regimen is as innovative towards the environment as any project in recent years.
1. We restored the native dune lands habitat that had been previously destroyed in the last decades.
2. We dealt with invasive vegetation that had overtaken the property and degraded habitat further.
3. And reversed many other negative human impacts to the property.
Great pains were made to minimize impacts in the design and recreate as many acres of native habitat as possible. You will see this come to fruition as this project is completed. In many ways our course design is equally tied to environmental success as your goals.
As long as it remains a course, and does not succumb to further development, that won't change. I think we can all agree the course is a better solution than another real estate development encroaching on the Maripendi.
Given the immense value of this property, in the heart Rio's booming district, this threat can't be ignored -- no matter what the agreements are now.
Everyone involved with this project should focus on working together to make sure that doesn't happen in the long run!

[Ronald Montesano]

Kyle,

Nice of you to check in. I'm a fan of your team's work at MidPines.

That said, what can folks in North America do to ensure that Rio Golf stays Rio Golf (does it have a name yet?)

[MClutterbuck]

Golf Channel reported Hanse stated the Rio golf course is "finished" and only needing to mature. I only saw a Spanish article but apparently  Hanse discussed this on TV? Anyone has a link?