[Dan Kelly]

Is there a prevailing wind direction?

The hole goes from north to south -- so, around here, the most typical wind on the hole would be from right to left.

By the way: Who's HHW?

[Brian Finn]

This is very close to what I was thinking - only difference being I thought it might require only a single pot bunker in the fw, and then a small, but deep pot front right of green...

[Jeff_Brauer]

Is there a prevailing wind direction?

The hole goes from north to south -- so, around here, the most typical wind on the hole would be from right to left.

By the way: Who's HHW?

HHW= Herbert Warren Wind, specifically a 1966 Golf Digest Article on some forgotten features in golf design. First GCA article I ever read.  I recall hims saying that one carefully placed greenside bunker is all that is really necessary to establish strategy off the tee.

BTW, Second article I ever read was also in GD, a year or so later by Gary Player, quite a downward slide, although I still recall his advice to place 4 par 5's with a reachable by all, two tweeners and one true three shot par 5, all of which I thought made sense.

As to wind direction, if downwind, I tend to favor the inside-outside bunker relationship between fw and green hazards, figuring that downwind knocks just enough spin off an approach to make that frontal opening a near necessity for a good shot.  In cross winds, I tend to set holes up to play with the wind, as in two draws on this hole with the wind going to the left.  In that case, I might bunker the green laterally on the left as a save feature, given I want to encourage the aggressive shot.  Also, it might be just as effective to tilt the green that way and leave the right side as a chipping area to a green falling away.

Of course, it would all depend on the context of the course, and these are just tendencies, not cast in stone paramters.....

[Garland Bayley]

Jeff,

You spelling is pretty bad. Twice!

[Mike Hendren]

Entrance from right is guarded by blind/obscured shot from fairway.

Then the answer is "none."

Bogey

Don't you think a front left bunker challenges the better player/preferred line while leaving the right open allows the weaker player to navigate safely?

That has already been accomplished by routing the hole along the boundary.  Anybody that's good and confident enough to successfully drive the ball directly at the green is not going to be challenged by a front left bunker with a flip wedge in hand.  By comparison, the timid or less talented soul who drives right is now faced with a blind approach with OB in play if he's long.  

The first hole at Cuscowilla is analogous.  The player who carries the left-hand fairway bunker is left with a direct pitch down the length of the green since the only greenside bunker is right-hand.  By comparison, abundant fairway width is provided to the right to avoid the fairway bunker complex but at the cost of approaching diagonally over the right-hand green side bunker.  In the subject case, the right-hand hillside front-right of the green accompisihes the same effect for the timid while the OB accomplishes the same effect from the tee for the bold.

Otherwise, the strategy is risk/risk.

Now if we want to get cute, to follow up on Matthew Sander's post let's move the tee up 40 yards, cut a fairway bunker at 260 yards into the right hillside (even if we have to move a little dirt) and maintain the back of the downslope as fairway canted toward the green so that a big sweeping draw over the fairway bunkers turbo boosts right onto the green.  Now you have a four dimensional option from the tee:  1) drive staight at it; 2) sling the big draw with a driver over the bunker; 3) lay back at 200 yards with an iron straight at the hole for the best line down the length of the green; or 4) lay back in the right side of the fairway leaving a blinch approach at a poor angle, yet with a pitching wedge.

One final thought, if you don't like the double hazard of a tree in a bunker, why do you like a bunker and OB?

This likely makes no sense as it's been a long day.  Time to go home.

Bogey

[Michael Essig]

Only two needed.

Center of fairway 250 or so off tee.
Right front of green.

That is exactly what I was thinking. Favor the right to avoid OB and have to deal with both bunkers on tee shot and second shot. Challenge the OB and very straightforward approach.

+2, kind of.  I would position the first bunker right-center and not dead center in the fairway.  And I would shave/mow the left hand side of the green/falloff so shots that try and avoid the bunker on the right greenside will roll to a position below the green surface on the left in a closely mowed area.

[Josh Tarble]

Bogey,
That makes sense. To me I guess it would depend on how severe the drop off in the right fairway is. If its a true blind shot, I still like one bunker left. If its just a slight drop off maybe a bunker right is a better choice. Either way, I don't think a fairway bunker is necessary with a hole that tight to OOB. It would only penalize a weaker player IMO.

[Phil McDade]

I'm with Mr. Bailey on this one -- there is already an Old Course (St. Andrews) feel to this hole. The defining strategic choice at TOC is that the bolder, riskier play off the tee is rewarded with an easier, more straight-forward shot into the green. The easier route off the tee leads to a more challenging approach.

This hole appears to be TOC's 16th in reverse image. Put a center-right (I'd put it at @ 200-225 yds from the tee) bunker complex in the fairway to mimic the Principal's Nose bunkers of TOC, and then a fronting greenside bunker front- right. Ask the player to choose the bold line off the tee left for an easier approach, or the easier path right  off the tee for a blind approach that must carry a bunker.

[Pete_Pittock]

maybe at the Great Gorge resort of the 60s or 70s

[Ronald Montesano]

I'm baffled that folks are so quick to copy holes out there. Explanations, please?

[Grant Saunders]

I kind of think maybe the hole doesnt need any bunkers.

How about some form front right of the green that obscures the view of the surface. The risk of only just carrying it would be the ball being propelled forward across the green. For the better player, not being able to see all of the flag is more unsettling than having to carry a bunker with the flag visible. From the tee, there would appear to be no strong reason not to bomb on down the right and take OB out of play.

Flirting with the OB successfully should be rewarded with the favourable line to the green/flag.

[Pete_Pittock]

I'd put two in line with the right edge of the green at 200 and 275, one near the right edge of the fairway at 230

[John Percival]

In this case, the bkrs should be used as defense for the player and the road. By placing them down the left side, two in the landing zone and one along the length of the green, you save many balls from bouncing/rolling into the road. Cars are less likely to be hit on the bounce. You potentially save the golfer shots/provisional and you also save time by reducing shots/provisional.
The big question is why the road is so close to the hole? Is it an old hole? Did the road come after the course was built? Is the road part of a new sub? How much traffic is there? How fast is the traffic. Did the USGA come to town and shove everything out to the curbs?

[Sean_A]

Instead of a bunker down the middle right I would build a mound maybe 8 feet high, 30 feet long and about 20 feet wide out around 250 yards from the tee depending on the land.  Balls could be played off the mound to a better position down the left side of a 25ish yard section of the fairway or to a worse position down the right.  I may even have a bunker on the right edge of the mound.  I would also place a bunker at the back right of the green.  No bunkers short of the green.

Ciao

[Dónal Ó Ceallaigh]

I don't think the hole needs any bunkers.

It would be nice to see an actual photo of the hole, although I don't think my view would change, as the info Pat has given is sufficient.

[Mark Bourgeois]

I'm baffled that folks are so quick to copy holes out there. Explanations, please?

Woking 4 is one of the most successful designs in all of golf. It has been tried, tested, and proven true. It is an apex design; you can't get no better. The rudimentary drawing looks like the or otherwise mirror image or I should say mirror outline. Why reinvent the wheel? You won't get anything as successful as Woking 4, you'll just get a watered-down or otherwise hobbled version anyway.

[jeffwarne]

How about NO bunkers, but a mound similar to ANGC #11 short right of the green.
The seemingly obvious tee ball played to the right off the tee would have to them carry this mound or risk shooting forward into OB left and over the green. A player who drove right would have to lay up short left or execute very well.
The further left one drives it the more the green would open up

Or no bunkers, but a green tilting quite a bit from right to left.
The further left on drove it the easier the second shot.

edit:
my poor reading comprehension skills caused me to miss this was an existing hole, making my suggestions a bit more complicated.

[Jason Topp]

Aerial of the hole:

http://course.bluegolf.com/bluegolf/course/course/townccstpaul/aerial.htm

The fairway is 60 yards wide at its widest point and 37 yards wide if you got rid of the bailout area right.

With more thought, I would put a big bunker in the low area on the right side of the fairway that covers the place where people bail out now and another one short right of the green.  People will still have more than a 40 yard opening left of the bunker and it would really mess with you when worried about ob.

The Woking idea does not work because of the slope of the green which makes Woking 4 such a good hole. This one is pretty much back to front.

No bunkers does not work because it would make the hole less interesting than it is now.  Right now, you pretty much face no downside to bailing out safely.

My Colt line of bunkers does not materially improve the hole either because one would still bail out and there are enough high handicaps at the course that a nasty bunker would be real difficult for many.

[Tyler Kearns]

In this case, the bkrs should be used as defense for the player and the road. By placing them down the left side, two in the landing zone and one along the length of the green, you save many balls from bouncing/rolling into the road. Cars are less likely to be hit on the bounce. You potentially save the golfer shots/provisional and you also save time by reducing shots/provisional.
The big question is why the road is so close to the hole? Is it an old hole? Did the road come after the course was built? Is the road part of a new sub? How much traffic is there? How fast is the traffic. Did the USGA come to town and shove everything out to the curbs?

John,

The golf course is one of the oldest in the US, and predates the road.  As the city has grown, the road has likely become much more busy, although Pat did not mention safety as being a major issue in regards to this hole.  I think a similar story can be told by lots of classic courses built in what are now sprawling metropolises.  Holes were designed along the periphery of the property because the surrounding land was vacant, and not much consideration was given to future city expansion.  Unfortunately, this has led to the alteration of many holes in an effort to alleviate conflict.

TK

[Phil McDade]

Aerial of the hole:

http://course.bluegolf.com/bluegolf/course/course/townccstpaul/aerial.htm

The fairway is 60 yards wide at its widest point and 37 yards wide if you got rid of the bailout area right.

With more thought, I would put a big bunker in the low area on the right side of the fairway that covers the place where people bail out now and another one short right of the green.  People will still have more than a 40 yard opening left of the bunker and it would really mess with you when worried about ob.

The Woking idea does not work because of the slope of the green which makes Woking 4 such a good hole. This one is pretty much back to front.

No bunkers does not work because it would make the hole less interesting than it is now.  Right now, you pretty much face no downside to bailing out safely.

My Colt line of bunkers does not materially improve the hole either because one would still bail out and there are enough high handicaps at the course that a nasty bunker would be real difficult for many.

Jason:

Just to clarify, you're referencing #8 at Old Town, not #1. (Your link highlights Hole #1 there).

Is safety for the cars/traffic on the road an issue? (Re. the safety issue raised by some here with placing bunkers hard against the left side of the fairway. I know the area pretty well, and that road does gets a decent amount of traffic.) I ask because the trees lining the left side look pretty protective of the road.

Few things bother me more than architects/designers who try to employ a centerline/Principal's Nose bunker concept with little regard for leaving enough room on both sides of the bunker complex. I've seen it done where the designer left 10-12 yards of fairway on the risk side, which to me is silly. Why have fairway there then? What's the incentive for taking on the risk? Under your new design scheme, is there enough room on the bailout side for the perennially hooking right-handed golfer who fears left-side OB more than____ (fill in the blank)? Given the width available on this hole, and the interesting topography, I'd hate to force the player on the tee into a one-dimensional play that merely puts pressure on his ability to execute, rather than choices that make him think.

[PCCraig]

Aerial of the hole:

http://course.bluegolf.com/bluegolf/course/course/townccstpaul/aerial.htm

My Colt line of bunkers does not materially improve the hole either because one would still bail out and there are enough high handicaps at the course that a nasty bunker would be real difficult for many.

Is safety for the cars/traffic on the road an issue? (Re. the safety issue raised by some here with placing bunkers hard against the left side of the fairway. I know the area pretty well, and that road does gets a decent amount of traffic.) I ask because the trees lining the left side look pretty protective of the road.

Phil,

While the road is certainly in play (on both the 7th and 8th holes) I wouldn't consider it a safety issue in considering how to bunker the hole. It certainly makes the hole more strategic, as balls hooking left can easily roll under or through the fence OB. The trees down the left side do a good job or knocking down most hooked drives.

[PCCraig]

I'm baffled that folks are so quick to copy holes out there. Explanations, please?

If he is going to compile this information and present it to the club in order to develop an actual design for the hole then that makes this whole exercise laughable.

Kelly,

This isn't the case. The hole is currently undergoing a bunker reconstruction process as I write this. Nothing shown on this thread will be reflected on the final design whatsoever.

The point of the thread is that I think the hole is an interesting example, and (to me) is a tough one to bunker as no typical scheme jumps out at me...even after playing the hole probably 150 times. I was mostly curious as to how many on here would approach the hole, as many (other than some of the local GCA guys and Tyler) haven't seen or played the course.

Hopefully many find this to be a fun exercise! It's been great reading all of the responses so far. Since Jason's let the cat out of the bag as to what and where the hole is located, I will follow up here shortly with some historic and modern photos.

[PCCraig]

To keep the conversation going, see the below (rough) mock up of the hole. The red represents the typical lines of the "better player" and the green shows the typical lines of the higher handicapper. One thing to note regarding the hole. Right now it is typically far easier to bail out far right for both levels of player...however, the higher handicapper is faced with a more daunting (blind) approach from the bottom right of the fairway. The left side is "position A" but both players must flirt with the OB/road.



I can post some pictures from early this spring pre-bunker later on.

[Dan Kelly]

Just to clarify, you're referencing #8 at Old Town, not #1.

Phil --

Just to clarify (E.O.), it's Town & Country, not Old Town.

DK

P.S. There's HEAVY traffic on that road. The trees, as PCraig notes, likely catch most of the big misses left -- but the possibility that they won't do so must play with the mind of any right-handed hooker or left-handed slicer ... because there's a very good chance that any ball evading the trees will result in a sickening noise upon its exit from the property.

[Phil McDade]

Dan:

Thanks -- I knew I messed that up when I posted it.

Let's just say if this hole was reversed (bailout left, OB hard right), I'd be playing away from that OB every day.

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