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PCCraig

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Pop Quiz: Strategic Bunkering - Answers Please!!!
« on: June 26, 2013, 02:29:36 PM »
Please see the below rough sketch of a real golf hole (not 100% to scale, but the green is roughly an oval). The hole featured is approximately 360 yards and played as a par-4. The black portion of the left side of the picture represents a road (out-of-bounds). It should be noted that the left portion of the fairway (from the perspective of the player on the tee), closest to the road, is the flattest portion while the right side falls off in the center of the fairway 20-30 feet towards rough on the right. Players that end up on the right side of the fairway off the tee are rewarded with a blind or semi-blind approach. 

Assume you are bunkering this existing golf hole. You are allowed 3 bunkers, maximum. Where do you place those 3 bunkers (or less?) on the hole to maximize the strategic nature of the hole?

« Last Edit: June 26, 2013, 02:31:30 PM by PCraig »
H.P.S.

Matthew Sander

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Re: Pop Quiz: Strategic Bunkering - Answers Please!!!
« Reply #1 on: June 26, 2013, 02:54:14 PM »
Pat,

How about a single bunker down the right hand side, recessed about 40 or 50 yards from the green? For those that bail out down the right, they would have the added visual hazard of a bunker to carry as well as the semi-blindness. Also for really long hitters it could catch the tee shots of those that try to play safe down the right.

I assume that the OB left is risk enough for challenging the left side, so a bunker would seem unnecessary. Also, not knowing what is going on around the green it would be hard to suggest any green side bunkers.

However, if the ground is interesting, and the slope on the right hand side of the fairway is significant, the hole may be better bunkerless.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2013, 03:02:34 PM by Matthew Sander »

Matthew Essig

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Re: Pop Quiz: Strategic Bunkering - Answers Please!!!
« Reply #2 on: June 26, 2013, 02:55:16 PM »
A few questions:

The fall off is just in the center of the fairway? The ball will roll to a flatter portion of the fairway on the right?

How far to where the fairway pinches?

How wide is the fairway before the pinch? After?

Does the falloff ridge continue to along the green?
"Good GCA should offer an interesting golfing challenge to the golfer not a difficult golfing challenge." Jon Wiggett

Tyler Kearns

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Re: Pop Quiz: Strategic Bunkering - Answers Please!!!
« Reply #3 on: June 26, 2013, 02:56:13 PM »
Pat,

While mimicking the strategic bunkering at Talking Stick North's #2 (front right) seems like a logical choice, the fact that a busy road rather than barren desert borders the left side of the hole in question, perhaps the opposite is true.  Is the vegetation separating the golf course from the road sufficient to negate safety concerns? If it is an existing problem, asking golfers to more closely hug the out-of-bounds to gain a better angle of approach could create further conflict.

Conversely, at 360 yards, driver is not necessarily a requirement from the tee.  Could left hand side fairway bunkers be introduced that may make driver a riskier proposition, leading to fewer balls heading into the road?  

TK

Ronald Montesano

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Re: Pop Quiz: Strategic Bunkering - Answers Please!!!
« Reply #4 on: June 26, 2013, 02:57:47 PM »


My strategy is, stay the hades away from out of bounds and find the fairway, then challenge my fat bunker on your second shot. There's room to bounce it on to my bunkerless green if you can just get past the sand pit I lovingly call "Phat Bahstadge."
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PCCraig

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Re: Pop Quiz: Strategic Bunkering - Answers Please!!!
« Reply #5 on: June 26, 2013, 03:03:32 PM »
Answers below in maroon.

A few questions:

The fall off is just in the center of the fairway? The ball will roll to a flatter portion of the fairway on the right?

The fall off is gradual starting is pretty much the center of the fairway. Balls that roll down the slope will find a slightly flatter lie, but still a little side hill. Long hitters can drive a ball well over the dip in the fairway. Where the fairway curves back on the right closer to the green the slope lessens.

How far to where the fairway pinches?

About 275-285

How wide is the fairway before the pinch? After?

I'd guess roughly 75-80 yards. Maybe 20 yards.

Does the falloff ridge continue to along the green?

No, it stops when the fairway starts narrowing closer to the green. The right portion of the fairway follows the depression.
H.P.S.

PCCraig

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Re: Pop Quiz: Strategic Bunkering - Answers Please!!!
« Reply #6 on: June 26, 2013, 03:05:52 PM »
Also, not knowing what is going on around the green it would be hard to suggest any green side bunkers.

The green is distinctively "pushed up." The area left of the green is deep (~7ft of elevation) and deeper than the right side of the green. There is a natural 3-4' fall off behind the green.
H.P.S.

Kevin_D

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Re: Pop Quiz: Strategic Bunkering - Answers Please!!!
« Reply #7 on: June 26, 2013, 03:06:32 PM »

Garland Bayley

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Re: Pop Quiz: Strategic Bunkering - Answers Please!!!
« Reply #8 on: June 26, 2013, 03:06:53 PM »
Only two needed.

Center of fairway 250 or so off tee.
Right front of green.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Josh Tarble

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Re: Pop Quiz: Strategic Bunkering - Answers Please!!!
« Reply #9 on: June 26, 2013, 03:09:59 PM »
I think you could do it with one very penal bunker guarding the front left entrance to the green.

The OOB guards ideal line off the tee to flat part of the fairway.

Entrance from right is guarded by blind/obscured shot from fairway.

Ben Sims

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Re: Pop Quiz: Strategic Bunkering - Answers Please!!!
« Reply #10 on: June 26, 2013, 03:22:10 PM »
Bunker at the middle to back right of green.  Done.

Nigel Islam

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Re: Pop Quiz: Strategic Bunkering - Answers Please!!!
« Reply #11 on: June 26, 2013, 03:28:17 PM »
Only two needed.

Center of fairway 250 or so off tee.
Right front of green.


That is exactly what I was thinking. Favor the right to avoid OB and have to deal with both bunkers on tee shot and second shot. Challenge the OB and very straightforward approach.

Nigel Islam

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Re: Pop Quiz: Strategic Bunkering - Answers Please!!!
« Reply #12 on: June 26, 2013, 03:30:47 PM »


My strategy is, stay the hades away from out of bounds and find the fairway, then challenge my fat bunker on your second shot. There's room to bounce it on to my bunkerless green if you can just get past the sand pit I lovingly call "Phat Bahstadge."

Ronald,

I'm curious to the reasoning of the left sided fairway bunkers? I thought about having a third bunker there to actually protect a tee shot from going out of bounce.

Matthew Essig

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Re: Pop Quiz: Strategic Bunkering - Answers Please!!!
« Reply #13 on: June 26, 2013, 03:39:56 PM »
#1: 240-250 yards on left
#2: Right side of fairway at pinch.
#3: On right at second pinch in front of green to just before end of bold line at green
"Good GCA should offer an interesting golfing challenge to the golfer not a difficult golfing challenge." Jon Wiggett

Brent Hutto

Re: Pop Quiz: Strategic Bunkering - Answers Please!!!
« Reply #14 on: June 26, 2013, 03:45:00 PM »
I say you need a deep bunker guarding the front right corner of the green, preferably with a high lip between the bunker and the green.  

The idea being, bunkering this hole is all about if you're in the bailout area on the right of the fairway. For an approach shot from the right I want the OB in play left of the green with no bunker over there to catch the ball. That deep, high-lipped bunker front-right will make a person playing from the bailout area choose between carrying the bunker all the way to the green or just laying up well short of the green.

If you need to soften that challenge then leaving 15 yards of dead area (shortish rough) between the bunker and green will maybe let a shot that's only slightly short of the green avoid the bunker.

No more bunkers. If you can succeed in getting your tee shot down the left you have a free shot at the green from there.

If the membership will tolerate center-line hazards then a nasty, small, invisible from the tee pot bunker about where Kevin_D suggests would work. Or even a bit long and right of that. Something to threaten the long hitters who want to shade their tee shot to the right and are capable of just putting it in the rough 70 yards short of the hole. Put the pot near the landing zone for that shot.

Mike Hendren

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Re: Pop Quiz: Strategic Bunkering - Answers Please!!!
« Reply #15 on: June 26, 2013, 03:53:56 PM »
Entrance from right is guarded by blind/obscured shot from fairway.

Then the answer is "none."

Bogey
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Josh Tarble

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Re: Pop Quiz: Strategic Bunkering - Answers Please!!!
« Reply #16 on: June 26, 2013, 03:57:15 PM »
Entrance from right is guarded by blind/obscured shot from fairway.

Then the answer is "none."

Bogey

Don't you think a front left bunker challenges the better player/preferred line while leaving the right open allows the weaker player to navigate safely?

Mark Bourgeois

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Re: Pop Quiz: Strategic Bunkering - Answers Please!!!
« Reply #17 on: June 26, 2013, 04:32:10 PM »
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Jason Topp

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Re: Pop Quiz: Strategic Bunkering - Answers Please!!!
« Reply #18 on: June 26, 2013, 04:33:26 PM »
If I did not know the hole I would put one or two fairway bunkers in the bailout area on the right side (probably in the fairway) and a nasty one front right of the green.  If one hits it near the ob fence, one has a better angle for the next shot. 

However - I know the hole and I know the street is busy and one only needs to miss the fairway by about ten yards to nail a car. 
You do not want to encourage people to aim left.  In ists current state however, one just bails out right and wedges onto the green. 

I would therefore think about a Colt style angled line of bunkers starting on the left side about 230 off the tee, one in the middle of the fairway about 280 off the tee and a nasty one short right of the green.  Carrying the left bunker would be foolhardy.  Short of the bunker left leaves a good angle but a shot longer than 130 yards.  Bailing out right forces a pitch from a nasty angle.  Hitting it down the middle leaves a mix between the two other options.   

Ben Sims

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Re: Pop Quiz: Strategic Bunkering - Answers Please!!!
« Reply #19 on: June 26, 2013, 04:39:38 PM »
The front left of the green is protected by the pushup nature of the green. A tugged shot from either side of the fairway will yield bad results.  

The front right is protected (slightly) by the pushup nature of the green and the stance/lie/blindness issues from the right side of the fairway.

If a player is apt to play away from the OB, then they will be left with what is already a difficult shot without any bunker at the front of the green.  Furthermore, with a bunker at the short right--which seems to be the popular pick--the approach shot by the person in position A (left side of fairway) is predictably--and boringly IMHO--penalized for even just a slight mishit of their wedge.

Instead, I am more apt to want to visually intimidate with a bunker at the middle to back right of the green that does catch wayward shots and penalize mishits without completely dominating the strategy of the golf hole.  

Dan Kelly

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Re: Pop Quiz: Strategic Bunkering - Answers Please!!!
« Reply #20 on: June 26, 2013, 04:39:49 PM »
I would put pot bunkers right and left, short of the center of the green, and an upside-down U bunker all around the back of the green.

I would leave the front of the green open (allow the bounce-in shot) and mow the grass to fairway height all around the green.

The OB-left/high-left/low-right fairway provides all the "strategy" you need off the tee.
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Ronald Montesano

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Re: Pop Quiz: Strategic Bunkering - Answers Please!!!
« Reply #21 on: June 26, 2013, 04:55:50 PM »
I don't want folks out of bounds. I want bunkers to keep them in bounds, yet punish them for being stupid enough to miss the fairway right. I want the shot in from the right to have a challenge, hence the second bunker.

I don't want totally shaved green surrounds...all that chipping area is nice, but don't want it to run too far away...not everyone likes to putt up slops, you know. No one likes one option (the putter) from around the green.
Coming in 2024
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~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Pop Quiz: Strategic Bunkering - Answers Please!!!
« Reply #22 on: June 26, 2013, 04:57:41 PM »
Is there a prevailing wind direction?

I don't favor Ronald's plan, as locking up the left side is double hazard, not required.  I might save players on a longer hole, but with enough room to play away from the OB, not on a shorter one.

I don't like Josh's suggestion of front left bunker, because the hole is too short.  I prefer locking up the short route more on the real long holes, such as 460 and above where it really makes a difference in hole length to aggressively play the short line. At 360, I believe other strategies make more sense in the overall context of the golf course.

I  agree with Ben that only one bunker front right is required.  I think HHW wrote that about a similar fake hole decades ago.  Even more so if the hole typically plays downwind.

That said, KBM's additon of two bunkers on the right side of the fw has some intrigue.  While I don't care for bunkers guarding the safe route away from trouble at the full LZ, these do make you actively plan the shorter tee shot to the layup zone, in contrast to driver going long left for the better angle.  If you hit driver, you MUST be left of center, and have some penalty for an indisriminate shot.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Matthew Runde

Re: Pop Quiz: Strategic Bunkering - Answers Please!!!
« Reply #23 on: June 26, 2013, 05:10:30 PM »
I could lay out a bunkering strategy, but I think that doing so would ignore one of the most important aspects of design: the player's story.  That is, the emotional nature of the player, which I think the designer should consider long before getting into strategy.

What do I mean by that?  Well, who is the player?  To answer that, simple demographics could help.  Psychographics, too.  But none of that describes the player's emotional reason for playing the course.  That answer is a lot deeper.

What need is the player trying to satisfy by playing?  Does he or she feel the need to use some real skill to impress some colleagues?  Does he or she want to relax and get an ego boost (possibly at a resort course)?  Each of those scenarios could lead to very specific and unique decisions by the architect.  And that's just a tiny bit of what I believe an architect should consider before even thinking about addressing the course.

Mark Bourgeois

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Re: Pop Quiz: Strategic Bunkering - Answers Please!!!
« Reply #24 on: June 26, 2013, 05:11:24 PM »
If I did not know the hole I would put one or two fairway bunkers in the bailout area on the right side (probably in the fairway) and a nasty one front right of the green.  If one hits it near the ob fence, one has a better angle for the next shot. 

However - I know the hole and I know the street is busy and one only needs to miss the fairway by about ten yards to nail a car. 
You do not want to encourage people to aim left.  In ists current state however, one just bails out right and wedges onto the green. 

I would therefore think about a Colt style angled line of bunkers starting on the left side about 230 off the tee, one in the middle of the fairway about 280 off the tee and a nasty one short right of the green.  Carrying the left bunker would be foolhardy.  Short of the bunker left leaves a good angle but a shot longer than 130 yards.  Bailing out right forces a pitch from a nasty angle.  Hitting it down the middle leaves a mix between the two other options.   

Why mess with success? Put up a net and make the call: "Reverse Woking 4."
Charlotte. Daniel. Olivia. Josephine. Ana. Dylan. Madeleine. Catherine. Chase. Jesse. James. Grace. Emilie. Jack. Noah. Caroline. Jessica. Benjamin. Avielle. Allison.

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