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Mark_Rowlinson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why doesn't Alwoodley get more attention?
« Reply #25 on: June 28, 2013, 02:30:24 PM »
Jim,

I could give you more information if I could find my copy of the Alwoodley Centenary Book - I wrote it! But I've probably lent it to somebody.....

Mark.

Jim Eder

Re: Why doesn't Alwoodley get more attention?
« Reply #26 on: June 28, 2013, 02:48:50 PM »
Mark,

I should have known.  :) 

Jim

Duncan Cheslett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why doesn't Alwoodley get more attention?
« Reply #27 on: June 28, 2013, 04:36:13 PM »
Jim,

I could give you more information if I could find my copy of the Alwoodley Centenary Book - I wrote it! But I've probably lent it to somebody.....

Mark.

Not guilty!

You did lend it to me, and a very enjoyable read it was too. I returned it when we played Cavendish last year.  :)

I'm very much looking forward to playing Alwoodley with Nick Leefe on 22nd August. I have another evening free while working in Leeds; where should I try, Moortown or Sandmoor?

Adam Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why doesn't Alwoodley get more attention?
« Reply #28 on: June 28, 2013, 05:27:51 PM »
Duncan - Sand Moor is good but Moortown is a very clear number two in Leeds after Alwoodley.
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why doesn't Alwoodley get more attention?
« Reply #29 on: June 29, 2013, 03:53:27 AM »
Duncan,

Moortown is certainly the better of the two.

Jim,

I have not played Moortown for a few years now nor have I seen it. I tend to play Alwoodley when in Leeds.

Jon

Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why doesn't Alwoodley get more attention?
« Reply #30 on: June 29, 2013, 04:52:28 AM »
It speaks volumes of MacKenzie that he proposed using that land for the 10th green and 11th tee long before it was ever a possibility.

Jim, Jon: my comments shouldnt read as criticism - I love Alwoodley, and its low key character is a major reason why.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why doesn't Alwoodley get more attention?
« Reply #31 on: June 29, 2013, 05:00:15 AM »
It speaks volumes of MacKenzie that he proposed using that land for the 10th green and 11th tee long before it was ever a possibility.

Jim, Jon: my comments shouldnt read as criticism - I love Alwoodley, and its low key character is a major reason why.

Scott

It sounds like we are on the same page.  It seems that unless one profusely praises a course that it is being slighted - not the case at all.  I am stingy with the stars and Alwoodley received one.  With further plays I may change my mind, but currently I think the course just falls short of being great.  The one issue I singled out as problematic was the difference in firmness between greens and fairways.  I played on a wet day and the greens held up well - very well.  So well that I needed to hit short of greens for the kick-up, but the approaches weren't really allowing for this.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why doesn't Alwoodley get more attention?
« Reply #32 on: June 29, 2013, 05:57:19 AM »
Scott,

I just did not agree with your points of no great GCA and no other great courses round and about both of which are plainly wrong IMO.

Sean,

having played Alwoodley on over 50 occasions in all conditions your note on the run up shot is something that has started to effect the course in the last 15 years or so. In the past they mowed the fairways longer and less often (sometimes not even weekly) Since they started getting more play and using dedicated ride on mowers plus fertilisers the character of the turf has changed leading to the approaches allowing the ball to dig in/break when damp. It has altered the play on holes such as 8, 12, 15 & 16 quite a bit IMO.

It would be a shame to take offence just because some one does not agree with what is being said. This however works both ways and though I for one do not think Scott was slighting Alwoodley the fact that I did not agree with him about some of his comments should not be taken as slighting him or anyone else.

Jon

Bart Bradley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why doesn't Alwoodley get more attention?
« Reply #33 on: June 29, 2013, 07:55:37 AM »
It speaks volumes of MacKenzie that he proposed using that land for the 10th green and 11th tee long before it was ever a possibility.

Jim, Jon: my comments shouldnt read as criticism - I love Alwoodley, and its low key character is a major reason why.

Scott

It sounds like we are on the same page.  It seems that unless one profusely praises a course that it is being slighted - not the case at all.  I am stingy with the stars and Alwoodley received one.  With further plays I may change my mind, but currently I think the course just falls short of being great.  The one issue I singled out as problematic was the difference in firmness between greens and fairways.  I played on a wet day and the greens held up well - very well.  So well that I needed to hit short of greens for the kick-up, but the approaches weren't really allowing for this.

Ciao

Sean:


The club has spent additional money on drainage of late.  The approaches are ROCK firm.  A well struck downwind pitching wedge landing short of the green often bounced 10 feet in the air.  The problem you are citing does not currently exist...and by the way, I played the course immediately after a significant rain shower.

Bart

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why doesn't Alwoodley get more attention?
« Reply #34 on: June 30, 2013, 04:49:19 AM »
Good to hear that Bart.  :)

Jon

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why doesn't Alwoodley get more attention?
« Reply #35 on: June 30, 2013, 07:45:12 AM »
Jim,

Re Sand Moor & Moortown I did a little photo tour here:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,48502.0.html

Jon is remembering the bad holes wrongly. It is 13, not 14 that is the bad'un.... There's a little history on that link that shows how 2,3,4 & 13 were added when 4 were removed for housing. Sand Moor was probably a great course before that change. Now it's merely excellent as a third choice to Alwoodley and Moortown.

Alwoodley - sometimes when people don't think anything stands out, I see that as a mark of class. This usually goes with a course that flows, fits within itself and has an overall character... Quite often it is the courses with stand out holes that are let down by a few other things or weak areas. Generally I prefer the consistency of excellence.

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why doesn't Alwoodley get more attention?
« Reply #36 on: June 30, 2013, 12:05:54 PM »
Ally,

thanks for correcting me you are right it is 13.

Jon

Bart Bradley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why doesn't Alwoodley get more attention?
« Reply #37 on: June 30, 2013, 07:28:22 PM »
The absolutely lovely 5th.  A gorgeous hole with a canted fairway.



Bart

Jim Eder

Re: Why doesn't Alwoodley get more attention?
« Reply #38 on: July 01, 2013, 04:05:07 PM »
Scott,

I did not take your comments as criticism at all. I totally saw where you were coming from and agree with you.

Ally,

Thank you very much for the link. Will take a look at the tour. Thanks for doing it.

Jon,

I would be interested in your take on Moortown. A fair amount of tree clearing has happened at least from what I remembered from the last time I played. It felt different and I thought better. I liked the new holes as well.


Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why doesn't Alwoodley get more attention?
« Reply #39 on: July 02, 2013, 04:18:45 PM »
Jim,

I played Moortown quite a bit before and after the alterations. Before it was a really good course that flowed well though suffering from tree and bush encroachment. The holes that were lost were of a high quality but I feel they replaced them with interesting, in character holes. The new layout did not seem quite as good to me though still excellent. The two complete new holes (6 & 7) were both good over interesting ground though extremely tight. I much preferred the old 17th to the present one though it is a solid hole.

I would recommend Moortown to anyone visiting Leeds as a course with excellent pedigree and playable for any standard whilst being a good challenge for the best golfers.

Jon

Jim Eder

Re: Why doesn't Alwoodley get more attention?
« Reply #40 on: July 03, 2013, 10:12:49 AM »
Jon,

Thanks for the thoughts. I am pretty much on the same page. Thanks 

Bart Bradley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why doesn't Alwoodley get more attention?
« Reply #41 on: July 03, 2013, 07:51:07 PM »
The 16th...love the bunkering.


Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why doesn't Alwoodley get more attention?
« Reply #42 on: July 03, 2013, 08:43:01 PM »
The 16th...love the bunkering.



How about that rig-and-furrow reminder of ancient agricultural practices?    15 and 16 both feature it. 

Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why doesn't Alwoodley get more attention?
« Reply #43 on: July 05, 2013, 01:09:10 AM »
This thread has made me think a lot about Alwoodley the past few days. Certainly I agree if I had played it more, it's the kind of course that would grow an extra leg and reveal subtleties initially missed.

I love this view back to the clubhouse from the second green:



And this wonderful bunker short left of 16 green (with Mike Whitaker providing scale):

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why doesn't Alwoodley get more attention?
« Reply #44 on: July 05, 2013, 02:07:16 AM »
It speaks volumes of MacKenzie that he proposed using that land for the 10th green and 11th tee long before it was ever a possibility.

Jim, Jon: my comments shouldnt read as criticism - I love Alwoodley, and its low key character is a major reason why.

Scott

It sounds like we are on the same page.  It seems that unless one profusely praises a course that it is being slighted - not the case at all.  I am stingy with the stars and Alwoodley received one.  With further plays I may change my mind, but currently I think the course just falls short of being great.  The one issue I singled out as problematic was the difference in firmness between greens and fairways.  I played on a wet day and the greens held up well - very well.  So well that I needed to hit short of greens for the kick-up, but the approaches weren't really allowing for this.

Ciao

Sean:


The club has spent additional money on drainage of late.  The approaches are ROCK firm.  A well struck downwind pitching wedge landing short of the green often bounced 10 feet in the air.  The problem you are citing does not currently exist...and by the way, I played the course immediately after a significant rain shower.

Bart

Thanks Dr B.  I wonder if N Leaf had anything to do with this.  I mentioned it to him when we played then we fooled around on the 5th to highlight the issue.  It may not seem like a big issue, but I think it will help with playability quite a bit.  I need to get back up there some day.  It seems every time I plan to have a go the weather socks the course.  YORKS - who would live there?

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why doesn't Alwoodley get more attention?
« Reply #45 on: September 02, 2014, 03:42:34 AM »
I am raising this thread again because as Scott and I suggested, more plays is what folks need around Alwoodley.  I just happened to be on the Links100 site and saw that Alwoodley hit the top 200.  I just assumed the course was well ensconced on the list.  Some seem to think of Alwoodley as extremely competent and that is certainly true.  But its more than that, Alwoodley doesn't put a step wrong except for the Redan which if the entire area were cleared of trees and vegetation the hole would be vastly improved.  Anyway, on my last visit I was terribly impressed and think Alwoodley reminds me quite a bit of Walton Heath Old and is in the same class.  I wonder if these are two fine designs which very much rely on conditioning to make the subtlety of the designs shine.  

I think Alwoodley holds its head up very well in select Surrey/Berkshire company and should be considered among the elite handful of inland GB& I courses. What do folks think?  

Ciao
« Last Edit: September 02, 2014, 04:24:09 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why doesn't Alwoodley get more attention?
« Reply #46 on: September 02, 2014, 04:27:21 AM »
I haven't played Sunningdale or Walton Heath, so can't compare to them.  St George's Hill is also a gap in my CV but that will be corrected on Monday.  That said, I think Alwoodley is slightly, but only slightly behind Ganton, which is the best inland course I have played in the UK, and is on a par with Notts.  I think Alwoodley is slightly ahead of Berkshire Red and Blue and Swinley Forest.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2014, 05:05:16 AM by Mark Pearce »
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why doesn't Alwoodley get more attention?
« Reply #47 on: September 02, 2014, 04:43:56 AM »
I said all I needed to say in my posts on the first page.

It is not underrated in my world.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why doesn't Alwoodley get more attention?
« Reply #48 on: September 02, 2014, 04:51:25 AM »
Sheehy
 :D
There is no question I refer Alwoodley to WHO primarily because of space (as you suggest) but also because its a more peaceful experience.  On the flip side though, the open views at WHO are lovely and pretty much how I imagine heathland should be.  There are also more visually cool features at WHO whereas Alwoodley is pretty standardized with its bunkering.  Don't get me wrong, its attractive bunkering, but bunkering all the same.  I think Alwoodley may just pip WHO in quality, but I think they are in the same class and could understand the argument either way.  Yet, WHO is always ranked top 100 and Alwoodley is the poor step child.   I think Sunny Old pips either one, but with more plays I could see myself either putting Sunny Old well in front or Alwoodley pipping it.  Bottom line, I would need to play both courses more times to have a clear understanding of the comparison.  In a  way Sunny Old and Alwoodley compare quite well with neither course having a lot of outstanding holes; instead relying on the total design to get the job done.  

Mark

Notts for me is a clear step in quality below Alwoodley.  I can't quite figure out what my reticence about Notts is and it really bugs that I can't!  The only thing I ever come up with is the greens aren't particularly special.  But normally this doesn't bother me much especially as Notts clearly has a better variety of terrain and holes than Alwoodley or WHO.  I guess the only solution is to play Notts more  :D

Ganton, Swinley, Georges Hill, Sunny New and Woking I would place on the low end of the same class as Alwoodley (with Alwoodley on the top end of the class).   I consider all these great courses.  

Ciao  
« Last Edit: September 02, 2014, 07:22:51 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why doesn't Alwoodley get more attention?
« Reply #49 on: September 02, 2014, 05:25:41 AM »
I have had the pleasure of playing Alwoodley many times over an extended period of time and I do not think there is a better inland course that I have played as yet though I have not played all the heath courses around London. I am at a quandary with Ganton in as much as classifying it. Yes it is 'inland' but I can not for the lie of me say it is either heathland or parkland or any other type of land. I think it is unique and so comparison is difficult.

Jon

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