[Bart Bradley]

FIRM.  Wide.  Large undulating greens.  Long views.  Interesting bunkering.  Lovely walkable routing.  History.  Wind.

What is missing for this course to not get some serious love from the cognoscenti ?

I think it is truly fabulous.

Perhaps a few pictures when I get home.

Bart

[Jon Wiggett]

Bart,

Alwoodley is a great course sitting in possible the best neighbourhood for inland courses in the UK. I think it is the type of membership it has tht means it has such a low profile.

Jon

[Scott Warren]

Being a good distance from the golfing drawcards of London and Scotland, away from any other great course, probably doesn't help.

Though to the course itself, I would say it's relentlessly competent, but lacks the really stunning, memorable holes that you tend to find on the best of the best. The same kind of holes that generate discussion and hype.

When I think of the things I like most about Alwoodley, it's the subtleties like the 3rd green, landforms around the 4th green, The use of the sideslope in the drive at the 5th, the clever slopes of the 11th and bunkering of the 12th, the long bunker greenside at the 16th and front to back green at the 17th.

The only really bold, dramatic highlights are the approaches to the 8th and 10th.

That's no criticism, the highs are great and there are precious few lows to speak of, but I do think it is what makes people admire and respect Alwoodley more than they drool and rave about it.

[Greg Taylor]

Location.

It's inbetween Scotland & Surrey so out of the way for the tourist traffic on the traditional golf tracks.

Having said that I haven't played it, and I live an hour and a half away.

[Mark Bourgeois]

It gets plenty of love from the cognoscenti. Perhaps you're asking why it doesn't get love from the hoi polloi (raters, belt-notchers, tour-bus golfers, etc).

[Ally Mcintosh]

I guess in some ways this shows how we can all have slightly differing tastes and that there are no right answers.

I’ve played or walked the majority of the heathlands. I’d take Woking for the greens, I’d take St Georges Hill for the topography. I’d take Walton Heath for the open landscape

But I’d take either Alwoodley or West Sussex as the best of the lot. I’d want to join one of those two clubs all things being equal. Perfect mix of heath and woodland, good strategic bunkering, land that relies more on subtleties than severe terrain, relatively untouched by time, a routing that is excellent but quirky in places, an easy walk…. Perfect members courses…

[Brent Hutto]

Without having played all the courses Ally has, I would agree with his take. A 36-hole day at Walton Heath, with lunch, is as good  day out as you'd hope to have. But for everyday play as a member I think Alwoodley would be outstanding.

Sean's comparison with Notts (which I have played) is consistent with my own take. But I'd add that, while the greens at Alwoodley are very good, the greens and their settings at Notts are outstanding. Tee to green I'd prefer Alwoodley (a bit shorter and less demanding if nothing else) but once you're within 40 yards of the green Notts is hard to beat.

[Sean_A]

I think Alwoodley gets plenty of attention around here.  Its Dr Mac's first so that was always going to be the case.  I see its ranked 52 in GB&I - thats pretty darn high.

Ciao    

[Mark Pearce]

It gets plenty of attention here, as others have said.  It's a tremendous golf course, second in God's Own County only to Ganton and certainly worth discussing with the southern heathland greats.  As others have said too, I'd think it would be a great club to be a member of.

[Ally Mcintosh]

There's something delightfully old fashioned about the routing at Alwoodley (and indeed West Sussex) that I find completely charming.

It has the 3rd hole crossing the 16th though this doesn't affect the aesthetics or play on either hole. It has the two par-3's (7 and 14) laid side-by side playing in the same direction that cross the loops over. It has an essentially out-and-back plan. It has a shot over a road. This routing would be seen as a weak point by many today but it adds immeasurably to the course in my estimation. It gives it a sense of identity.

The open heath mixed with surrounding woodland is also just about right (although might prefer to see a bit of clearing around 10, 11, 12).

The clubhouse, practice green, 1st tee and 18th green area is also supreme - I can't think of any course where this area is more compact, practical and attractive.

The bunkering looks good and positioning is excellent. The greens have enough going on. They are not massively undulating, they do not have huge contour and run-offs but they fully encourage good placement and help with bouncing the ball in (I think sometimes we overlook that flatter grade level greens - fairway extensions as such - actually encourage ground game more than many so called "interesting" greens / green sites)...

It is a great golf course.

[Bill_McBride]

One of my favorite experiences in golf.  My wife and I played a foursomes match against the Captain and his wife and somehow came away with the point.  How about those rig-and-furrow fairways?

There may not be any superlative holes, but it's one excellent hole after another on your way out and back.  I loved the split level green at 3, the tee shot at 5, the great set of par 3's, with #11 perhaps a model for the Gibraltar to be built next door at Moortown.  The cross bunker at #8, with its heather on top, presents a real challenge for the second shot.  The blind second to #17 is thrilling as you crest the hill to see where you wound up.  (Kathleen chipped in from behind the green for birdie to put us one up.)

It's a club and course where you could happily play the rest of your life.  

Perhaps the highlight for me was a discussion of the design after our round, when the Captain, also historian, excused himself and went to his car, where he opened the boot and brought back the ORIGINAL hand drawn map of Alwoodley signed the Good Doctor himself!   OMG, I thought, what if he was rear ended?

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Alwoodley was, from the outset, far from attention seeking. It is said to be the last club in the country at which you couldn't get a letter typed on the premises. With sale of the old practice course, construction of the new practice ground and building of the new clubhouse the nature of the club changed. It was, you might say, dragged from the first decade of the 20th century into the first decade of the 21st, omitting all the decades in between.

I got to know the club, its ethos, its members quite well when I was involved in their centenary book. At first only a small minority of members had any real understanding of TAGC's worldwide importance as the first MacKenzie course and its subsequent influence in the New World. That perception has changed and all the members are now very proud of their MacKenzie heritage.

I was lucky enough to talk to all those involved in promoting the development of Alwoodley. They were keen not to change the ethos, yet to attract new and prestigious events. The roster of high quality amateur events for men, women, boys and girls over the last few years has been extensive. They have attracted first rate fields to Alwoodley without taking on the blatant and commercial marketing of one or two other Yorkshire outfits. I think you would find that Alwoodley still sits comfortably with its Yorkshire peers, Ganton, Moortown and Lindrick.  

I think, too, that the Committee is probably satisfied that TAGC is ranked comfortably within the top 100 without their having to do loud trumpet blowing and vulgar flag waving.

[Jim Eder]

Personally, I think in general it is the location as others have mentioned. It is not in the typical tourist areas so people don't see it. Alwoodley is fantastic. The course is outstanding, the people (membership and the Professional) are welcoming and friendly, just terrific. The setting is beautiful, the course is interesting, challenging, and a great deal of fun. It is first rate.

A flight into the great and easy/quick Manchester and a visit to Alwoodley and then Moortown (which the recent work is outstanding), Reddish Vale, Wilmslow and combine it with a little driving to Lindrick, the outstanding Notts, Sherwood Forest, and Cavendish would be an amazing golf vacation (and education) for some great golf that is under the radar. Someone should arrange a MacKenzie tour (Alwoodley, Moortown, Reddish Vale, Cavendish) for visitors to show people how good these early MacKenzie courses are. And Wilmslow, Lindrick, Ganton, Notts, Sherwood Forest, Woodhall Spa to the MacKenzie tour and it would really be special.

I LOVE those courses.

[David Bartman]

I played Alwoodley in the British Mid-Am  a few years ago and I really enjoyed it.  It was certainly firm and you could play link style recovery shots on many of the holes but tee to green it felt like a parkland course.  Some very nice shot values, greens were certainly tricky at times, but didn't seem to bother my first round match play opponent at all - 23 puts in 17 holes for the win. 

[Jon Wiggett]

Scott & Greg T,

boys you need to get out a little more . Alwoodley has several great holes such as the 3rd with its unusual green complex and I have yet to see a better par 4 than the 5th. It has as good a set of par 3s as any course in the UK and the whole quality and ambience of the last is topped by very few.

Next door (200 yards) you have Moortown which is another great course despite the alteration which has the world famous Gibraltar. Also next door (600 yards) is Sandmoor which as a 15 hole course would be top 100 IMO but does suffer from 3 very dodgy holes in 2,3 &14. In the same county are Ganton & Lindrick as well as a host of 2nd tier clubs.

If Alwoodley were in the home counties it would be much more highly regarded.

Jon

[Jim Eder]

Jon has it right. The 3rd green at Alwoodley is terrific, the 4th hole is solid big golf, the 5th par 4 is a fantastic shorter hole, 6 is another solid longer par 4 with a nice greensite, bunkering and O.B., 8 is one of the better par 5s where the layup can be a challenge, the par 3s (9 a long one, 12 fantastic and shorter, and 7 a short, fun one, 14 a longer tougher one with trouble behind and right) are fantastic, 12 a par 4 is solid, 13 is solid with a nice green, 15 another nice green, 16 a par 4 that is solid, 17 a longer, solid par 4 with an interesting greensite (though hitting over the road is stressful) and 18 a long into the wind par 4 with an amazing setting (and view). There are a lot of great holes.

Just a side note, the recent work at Moortown (tree removal, heather renewal, etc) is absolutely brilliant. I just loved it.

The members, Secretaries, and Pros are all extremely welcoming and fantastic at both Moortown and Alwoodley. They make the experience, that, an experience, a very enjoyable experience. A person is made to feel very welcome.

A visit to Leeds with 2 great courses is a must in my book. I skipped Sandmoor but given Jon's view I will need to correct my omission. I will be going back soon!

[Mark Pearce]

No love here for 10, a really cracking sharp dogleg long par 4?  An uphill tee shot to a banked fairway, turning sharply right to left.  Too long a drive or the wrong line can result in missing the fairway in the trees.  Draw the ball on the right line and use the cant of the fairway, though, and you can gain yards and yards.  Which you need for a long, downhill second shot over a stream to a sharply banked green, with the ball above your feet if you playright handed.  Hitting the green isn't the end of the story, though.  Anywhere past the hole leaves s steeply downhill putt and is 3-putt territory.  Oh, and there's OOB all down the left!

[Jim Eder]

Mark,

I think the card says it is a par 5 (I would have to look up the card) but it really is a long 4 (and I think it is a 4 for amateur championships etc). I hit a draw so the hole works for me. I guess I found it a bit limiting for someone not able to hit the draw. It is a good tee shot, uphill. The trees on the left are a bit tall in my opinion.  The approach was just "there". I thought it was kind of easy with a short iron (I think I have hit 6-8 irons in). The green is just there down below and the bunkering to me is not really an issue. The green is kind of interesting but I did not find it a great hole. But maybe because seeing the par 5 on the card it changes my psychology. If it said par 4 (and I know it sounds crazy because par is really irrelevant) I might have looked at it in a different light. It just doesn't stand out to me (rightly or wrongly). Maybe I am just missing out on a great hole. I need to think more about the hole. Thanks for making me think more about it.

[Jim Eder]

As I think about it more I think there is a new tee that was built on that hole (#10). I am trying to think about how far back it was but just can't really remember. But I am pretty sure a new tee was added. I think there were a couple new tees recently added. I just can't remember what I was told. Hopefully someone here can shed more light on those.

[Scott Warren]

Jon, Jim - I agree Alwoodley has several outstanding holes (3, 5, 8, 10, 11, 16), almost nothing regrettable (13 might be the "weakest" hole and it's a good hole) and a heap of really interesting, engaging holes and shots - but it lacks some drama in its best holes to get it up among the very best.

In that sense, it's not dissimilar to Walton Heath (Old). I am extremely fond of both courses, and the low-key land and architecture and relentless competence of the holes is part of the reason for that. But it's also, in part, the reason they don't compete with the likes of Swinley and (from what I have seen) Sunningdale in thrilling, exciting and generating discussion.

[Jon Wiggett]

Scott,

I wonder if you are mistaking land contours and setting with architecture. Alwoodley's GCA is of the highest form. I have never played Swinley but found that whilst Sunningdale had many really good holes there were some things that were well below the rest. The pond on 5 sucks IMO and ruins what would be a good hole otherwise. On the whole I would split 10 rounds 7/3 in Alwoodley's favour.

In Yorkshire, I would only put Ganton ahead of it.

On other notes, the 10th green used to be much shorter as far as I am aware and the present green is not Dr. Mac.

Jim,

Sandmoor is well worth the visit. 15 really good holes. The poor holes are 2,3 and 14 which many of the members skip. These three are really, really bad and makes you wonder why they have never addressed this problem.

Jon

[Scott Warren]

Jon

I wonder if you are mistaking land contours and setting with architecture

I don't believe I am. Alwoodley has some fairly steep land around 2/17/18 and 9/10/11.

"Low key" is not a criticism - quite the opposite. I like the generally understated greens, that there's not superfluous bunkers and that what's there is so smartly placed.

[Jim Eder]

Scott,

I can see your point about the drama. It is just solid golf. I can see your point about Walton Heath. Another place I love. Solid golf.

That opening tee shot at Alwoodley right by the wonderful clubhouse and the finish into the clubhouse are something special. 11, 15 green, 5 fairway, 3 green and on and on. Just wonderful, Imagine 13 tee shot into a wind back when the course opened with the old equipment.

Jon,

Thanks for opening my eyes to Sandmoor, I'll play there on my next visit. I had heard mixed things so I never played. I guess those 3 holes stick out to most people. Hopefully they will do something about them? 

Thanks for the info on 10 green at Alwoodley. Would be interesting to know where it was. Maybe short right?

Jon, have you seen the recent work at Moortown? I thought it was brilliant. I think there is going to be a lot more talk about Moortown going forward.

As a side note, I think there was a new tee on #9 at Alwoodley as well.

[Mark_Rowlinson]

The old 10th green was at the bottom of the hill, a squarish green with a bunker through the back. I think the hole played about 360 yards. In his sketch map of ca 1910 MacKenzie indicates that a better green could be built where today's green stands, but at that time the club had no access to that piece of land. The new green was built in the 1920s and although it is where MacKenzie had suggested it is unlikely that MacKenzie oversaw its construction as he was by then divorced from his wife and married to a new wife in California. As his Reno divorce was not condoned by his Leeds relatives he was deemed to have married bigamously. The old 10th green was probably unsatisfactory as the approach to it was blind. At the same time, when the land became available, the 11th tee and green were moved to their present locations, again suggested by MacKenzie on his 1910 map. Neil Crafter and Nick Leefe believe they have found the site of the old 11th green in the trees separating the present 10th and 11th holes.

[Jim Eder]

Mark,

Thank you very much for the fantastic information. Very helpful!!  Much appreciated.

Jim

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